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Would you like to see the change reverted? (See post)
Yes I wish to see the change reverted. 52%  52%  [ 13 ]
No the change should stay as it is current. 48%  48%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 25
TheCortroy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 21 2018, 3:12 AM 

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Regarding shifter changes,

Hello, I've made this topic in hopes of a discussion about Shifter Balance. I'm hoping to keep this an open topic where people can contribute their insight about balance, and where they believe this class should go. As a note I'd like to state that I consider my shifter my main character, and I've established a lot of hours into the class - and as a result some of my opinions could be potentially biased.

Starting off, there was a change a some time ago where your shifter buffs and enchantments would not carry with you if you changed your form. I believe this change was a mistake. I can understand the balance and reasoning of it to certain extent, but in the overall grand scheme of how the class works I believe this was a bad call. I'll explain my thoughts why now. I believe the change hurt the potential class diversity of what a shifter could potentially be, and their roles in a group or solo enviroment of however they choose to play. When this change was implemented, a lot of other forms naturally got a lot weaker. This is because in a grand scale there wasn't compensation from the change to more medicore forms. In this same aspect it also promotes less skillfull play because you are simply limiting yourself in what you can do by yourself and in a group. I always enjoyed shifter for the main reason I believed it took a certain aspect of skill to change inbetween a middle of a fight and enchant with what the group may potentially need, changing the course of a fight or your own personal role at the time. The argument would just be replace it with potions or items, which is viable to a certain extent - but while polymorphed you are restricted to only potions, instead of items or other things, putting you at a severe disadvantage already. Another reason why I believed their buffs carrying between forms was compensation for some of the things shifters already had disadvantages with.

There were problems though, don't get me wrong, but instead I believe each form should be looked over in a more individual scale if there is an overhaul, or at least test the waters more gradually before such drastic changes. Some of the forms that should be looked at in one degree or another would be Dire Tiger (Fast as Lightning Spam), Stone Golem (Mass Haste Spam), Wraith, and the Wyrmling shapes. Some shifters forms however I believe were fine as they were, as it required an epic feat to achieve and heavy wisdom investment, and you were limited 3x of whatever form per rest cycle.

Unrelated to this subject I believe there are multiple forms which could benefit from a small buffs or tweeks to promote more diverse gameplay or to compensate for this change. Some forms I believe should be included on this list would be: Rakasha, Slaad, Risen Lord, Bassilisk, Manticore, and Harpy - in order to bring them more on par with some other things or perhaps just add a bit more diversity. These are some of my thoughts on some improvements for the forms.

Rakasha: I think all the Rakasha /really/ needs is Greater Spell Penetration or Epic Spell Penetration. A few flavor spells to add ontop of the existing Icestorm and Flamestrike would be neat though, to potentially give a more caster feel. I've always liked the idea of the Rakasha getting Haste as part of his reptiore also, in order to buff allies individually or himself for that caster spam. Some other thoughts might be Burning Hands, Issacs Lesser Missile Storm, Fireball, Darkness ... Just things to make him feel more magey in an aspect. Almost everything end game has some amount of spell resistance making this form completely useless in that aspect.

Risen Lord: I've always personally hoped for a complete rework of the Risen Lord myself into a scythe warrior instead of ... whatever it is at the moment. It's designed as a tank with good DR but it has the AB of a wet noodle. (36 on Sullivan maxed STR nothing else)

Death Slaad: Death Slaad is an interesting one. You could potentially obtain decently medicore AC and AB on this form if built correctly, making it somewhat useful, but as it stands right now your only spell is Phantasmal Killer. As it stands in my personal opinion, the Shapeshift version of Slaad is better then the Shifter. I would reccomend giving this form natural regeneration and a few select acid themed spells ontop of what it already has, as long as it's not AoE spam.

The Rest: I haven't given too much thought or insight, perhaps other members of the community might have input.

I've tried adding a poll at the top where the community of Amia can vote if their in agreement or disagreement regarding this general subject, but I can't seem to get it to work. Please don't be afraid to comment or give your suggestions or even call me crazy if I sound it! :D


 
      
LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 28 2018, 16:02 PM 

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Oh boy- this again!

I'm on the point where I won't play a Shifter anymore nor any of my old shifter(s) because of the changes. In my eyes the rework completely destroyed the class as a whole. Too much was taken away from them and not enough was given.

General:

1. Besides Shifters having no ability to carry over enchantments, it means you're stuck in the same form for that general time. Most of the forms in which we replied on their enchantments were just because of that. Now those forms are never getting touched again.

Suggestions Pre-Epic:

A few forms the Shifters have I think could serve a great purpose if something was done about them.

1. Medusa: I think this form could be improved greatly with Elemental damage on the Arrows, instead of the basic +4(?) arrows they have. Maybe up the DC to her Stare to be somewhat more useful against anything not Minotaurs or Beastmen.

2. The Mindflayer is decent too but really is not a weapon a Shifter uses (imo). Too fragile. It's essentially too much of a glass cannon. No AC. Low AB. Low HP. You rely just on the 5 seconds it takes to cast 1 spell. That's why you have to invest in 100000 Haste potions if you use this form.

3. I never thought Wyrmling had a use past leveling. Completely Rework.

4. Minotaur. Completely Rework.

5. Harpy. Completely Rework.

Epic Forms:

I think the overwork did to the Epic forms were too much take not enough give. Ever since the rework I never use 90% of the forms. Bruised said pretty much how I feel about Rak, Death Slaad, Risen Lord.

I believe Dragonshape isn't worth the effort to take it if you're a Shifter. Even with the new installments into the Module. Completely Rework.

Overall, on my shifters, I only ever use the Azer to hunt Beastment for gold. Otherwise I hardly touch in of the other forms. Not a single form is note worthy to its use and I have a Shifter with all the forms.

I hate the idea that a Shifter has to focus on one build, on one form, and on one tactic. I think it defeats the purpose of a general Shifter. I believe they should be able to pick any form from their arsenal and stand toe to toe with someone. However, with the update like I said I just use Azer. So my general (all form) shifter is a specialist now.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 01 2019, 2:52 AM 



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Figured I'd chime in on the mechanical side of things so people might understand what's possible within the engine limitations. If you've got any questions or need a better explanation let me know below.

Shifter forms can have the following changed - Appearance, Racial Type, Portrait, Creature Weapon 1/2/3*, Hide**, Equipped***, STR, DEX, CON, Natural AC Bonus, HP Bonus, Soundset, Spell (or Ability) 1/2/3**** and what merges.

* Creature weapons are hidden item types that act similarly to unarmed with different base damage and potentially other stats on them
** Hides are a hidden item type that function similarly to cloth armour for monsters. Generally this is where all your bonus feats, immunities and resistances go but anything capable of going on armour can be found here.
*** Equipped simply refers to -A- weapon. Note that you can only designate a single weapon to be equipped. You cannot set two short swords nor can you set a Bow and ammunition. Any ammunition must come from the bow through an unlimited arrow property. In order to add a new type of unlimited ammunition property to the module it would require a HAK update -HOWEVER- this update would be required server side only as a baseline to work, leaving a missing item property description on the bow in question player side (until its added later in a HAK update to players, though it would still function as intended even with the item description)
**** Spells or abilities. This refers to any spell or ability, an ability example being Dragons breath. Note the limit of 3 spells/abilities.


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 24 2019, 13:58 PM 

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The changes to where the buffs cast by a form not carrying over to another, is balance concerns. The defensive spells 1 form gets is there to help balance that form similar to the stats already present on a form, as far as I can tell at least. Spells you cast or that are cast on you before you enter the form do carry with you to the next form you pick, or at least they should do and if they don't then that's a bug.

This means that when you then have the ability to have those spells carry over to other forms, you get the ability to self-cast potentially very powerful spells without any of the drawbacks that come with the form that cast them, and instead use it to augment a form that gets an insane benefit from it. Which is why it was changed to where they don't carry over anymore. If you want to spam mass haste or spellmantles or whatnot, you can do that, but you can only keep them if you stay in that form.

If you choose to specialize in 1 or 2 forms with a build that augments them, then you're going to be on equal grounds with a lot of other builds, BUT with these changes more general builds for shifters become a jack of all trades, but master of none, compared to before where they were jack of all trades and master of some.

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TheCortroy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 24 2019, 17:16 PM 

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I understand the reasoning for it, and I still believe it was a bad call looking at the other possible options on Amia. The whole jack of all trades sentiment you provided is nice but instead of creating that, all the change did was pidgeon hole a lot of other forms that were made viable by the buffs and enchantments. It’s a build issue is when it was a problem, specifically when it was built with monk. Going off of a similar logic and thought process druids should receive the same treatment then also, because they have the ability to augment their elemental and dragon shapes to levels that far surpassed any “Master of all” scenaro that shifters were capable of. On top of that with mass heals, summons, a really strong animal companion, absurdly high AB, great high CON and every other save, borderline weapon master damage with monk, the ability to /buff/ yourself with an advanced spell arsenal. Shifters used to do the same thing, but to a way lesser extent, the only difference was it was our forms giving the enchantments. The balance only became a real concern was when monk was involved again, and a easy solution for that would be give all the forms a creature weapon so natural monk BaB can’t become a factor into this anymore.


 
      
thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:48 AM 



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If this decides to get looked at seriously, I think I would have some helpful input. I don't see running around as a wraith all the time as being very fun.

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kindlegem
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 13 2019, 4:24 AM 

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I have some uncontroversial changes to the drow warrior shape to suggest:

    1. Change the appearance used for the male drow warrior form so that it doesn't have a handlebar mustache. Elves don't grow facial hair! The current model is 216 Drow Fighter, it should be changed to any of the following drow fighters that do not have facial hair:

      476 Drow, Fighter 2
      477 Drow, Fighter 3
      480 Drow, Fighter 4
      (this appearance looks a little unusual as the face is a different color than the body)

    2. Add evasion to the form. The drow warrior is a dexterous fighter with modest resistance to spells, evasion complements both of these traits.

    3. Add a small bonus to discipline to the form. Most forms receive some bonus to skills that are applicable to what the form does. The other dedicated melee forms (minotaur, drider, dire tiger, risen lord, azer, and iron golem) all receive bonuses to discipline as befits a melee character that should have at least some resistance to being knocked down.


 
      
Lethaux
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 28 2019, 14:58 PM 

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LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Oh boy- this again!

I'm on the point where I won't play a Shifter anymore nor any of my old shifter(s) because of the changes. In my eyes the rework completely destroyed the class as a whole. Too much was taken away from them and not enough was given.



Same here, I retired my shifter and gave away all her epics (probably >100 of them) the day it happened. It might've been tolerable if they had nerfed paladins alongside shifters, considering how OP they were and probably still are.

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