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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Wed, Nov 28 2018, 20:31 PM 

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I like the changes made to Conjuration spells, but I don't get why they don't give any kind of boost to the creatures they summoned. I'm not talking anything gamebreaking. But I would expect a character with epic conjuration focus to throw down an at least somewhat stronger creature than a mage of equal power without Conjuration focus. These seem like simple changes to me, no need to rebuild creatures from scratch.

Summon Creature 1-9, each spell focus adds +1 strength, dexterity, constitution (a buff, counts towards +12 ability cap)
Planar Binding/Ally spells, epic spell focus makes duration hours/level
Gate, each spell focus adds 1 to CL, epic spell focus makes it turns/level

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Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 02 2018, 22:52 PM 

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Personally I believe that the summons are fairly balanced as they are for their intended purposes.

A single Summon Creature IX spell can competently make it through the abyss with a party given you actually take the time to buff it appropriately and have heal kits / heal potions available to it.

Gate spells and planar binding spells offer stronger summons at the cost of time for balancing reasons.

Also the fact you not only have to consider the summon creatures being benefited but how that plays into with the rest of the spell school list.

Such as, Acid fog, Stinking cloud, Evard's black tenticles, Cloudkill, Stonehold, Storm of vengeance etc and how it plays out with the ESF boons spells such as those garner along with the boons you may get along with the summons. And how balance will look between those boons interacting with that of the rest of the spell school list.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 03 2018, 20:06 PM 

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Angelis96 wrote:
A single Summon Creature IX spell can competently make it through the abyss with a party given you actually take the time to buff it appropriately and have heal kits / heal potions available to it.


I think that's a bit of an overstatement, the Omnimental alone may have been able to survive a little bit along with the help of a party of adventurers but I doubt the Bebilith would for example. The only useful summons are the elementals, the rest are too squishy and could use a buff IMHO.

Angelis96 wrote:
Gate spells and planar binding spells offer stronger summons at the cost of time for balancing reasons.


The difference between turns per level and hours per level isn't that drastic a change, this again would only be if the high-level caster invested in 3 Conjuration feats. Gate I might be able to understand since you can cast it multiple times, but it's still not as strong as a Mummy Dust summon nor is it tougher than a BBoD. BBoD lasts 1 round per level where Gate lasts 2, that still leaves little incentive to bother buffing it. I don't think I've ever seen Gate used once by someone other than myself because there are better options.

Angelis96 wrote:
Also the fact you not only have to consider the summon creatures being benefited but how that plays into with the rest of the spell school list.

Such as, Acid fog, Stinking cloud, Evard's black tenticles, Cloudkill, Stonehold, Storm of vengeance etc and how it plays out with the ESF boons spells such as those garner along with the boons you may get along with the summons. And how balance will look between those boons interacting with that of the rest of the spell school list.


I see where you're coming from but these aren't massive mechanical benefits, except maybe Gate by having more lasting summon options. Epic Conjuration already makes Dragon Knight and Mummy Dust, the two strongest summons available for a longer duration.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 03 2018, 23:06 PM 



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Additionally the 1-3 stat buff falls in nicely with the other buffs.
3 from ESF + 5 maximized animal + 4 aura of vitality =12
At the least it'll help net you 1-2 ab/DMG/hit die/saves


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 05 2018, 16:21 PM 

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Gate provides some of the strongest summons in the module at CL 27, I'm not sure how I would feel if it were made turns per level since portal clerics could then have a 2 turn/level extended gate summon.

Giving someone an Ultroloth (or as I like to call them, the low-key-shifter-murderer for the times when it used to meme on golem shifters) for that long might be ill advised.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 07 2018, 14:14 PM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
Gate provides some of the strongest summons in the module at CL 27, I'm not sure how I would feel if it were made turns per level since portal clerics could then have a 2 turn/level extended gate summon.


Again, in terms of balance I don't see how the duration makes that big of a difference. In terms of PVE because there are stronger summons that already last turns per level if not hours with the conjuration focus. A level 27 caster drops a Gate summon for 54 rounds, in terms of PVP, does combat tend to last 5 minutes. Not in my experience. If the duration would effect anything it would be that you can actually RP with your summon around before POOF.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 07 2018, 16:06 PM 

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If a cleric wants to gimp the shiz out of his build with 27 cleric levels, they should get something out of it imo... Caster clerics are inefficient and pretty ineffectual. No one needs or wants them in the meta. Enjoy spamming garbage blaster spells that hardly do anything even if you get the save.

Conjuration should buff those things it conjures decently. (Likewise for Necro). Conjuration hardly has anything outside of summon spells to talk about.

"Oh no, this will throw Evard's Black Tentacles out of whack!"

Get out of here with that. People haven't cast Evard's or 9/10 non-summoning conjuration spells since 1.69 or "ever" because they are and have always been terrible. About the only conj spells that ever get play don't even get love from focuses: Grease, Stonehold and Storm of Vengeance.

If you cast Cloudkill, you've just told your party you're an idiot.

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Anira
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 08 2018, 12:43 PM 

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MightNMagic wrote:
If you cast Cloudkill, you've just told your party you're an idiot.


I could totally see me doing this with a caster character. Why can't we cast AoEs in party?

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 10 2018, 12:41 PM 

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MightNMagic wrote:
If a cleric wants to gimp the shiz out of his build with 27 cleric levels, they should get something out of it imo... Caster clerics are inefficient and pretty ineffectual. No one needs or wants them in the meta. Enjoy spamming garbage blaster spells that hardly do anything even if you get the save.

Conjuration should buff those things it conjures decently. (Likewise for Necro). Conjuration hardly has anything outside of summon spells to talk about.

"Oh no, this will throw Evard's Black Tentacles out of whack!"

Get out of here with that. People haven't cast Evard's or 9/10 non-summoning conjuration spells since 1.69 or "ever" because they are and have always been terrible. About the only conj spells that ever get play don't even get love from focuses: Grease, Stonehold and Storm of Vengeance.

If you cast Cloudkill, you've just told your party you're an idiot.


1) 27 cleric allows for some of the stronger caster options on amia if you build AQIII

2) Conjuration has, were it not for permafreedom, the best Apes in men. Dropping them together is basically how you dissolve a group of anything. Cloudkill is only bad if you're using it for the death effect.

3) You can kill people with a single evards and a bigby if you're good at timing.

While I think the AoEs could use some love on the debuffing side you are just straight up wrong about the viability of the school.

Edit: Caster clerics have the strongest offensive spells in the game currently and all you're displaying here is not knowing that.

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