Hello, I'd like to propose a possible change. Currently as it stands with the Divine Champion class you can dump Great Wisdom in epic levels through the bonus feats to potentially make really strong druid/shifter/wisdom based builds. I think a nice change would be to allow divine champion to be able to add the rest of the Great (Stat) epic feats into it's possible arsenal.

It would open up build diversity, and I always interpreted the "Champion of Torm" to be the middle-ground prestige class, capable of building into many different things instead of one particular stat set.

DC doesn’t really need help in pre-epic levels which is what this would be used for. The only issue this class really has is that there’s no incentive to take epic levels and the two signature Divine oriented class abilities are limited by Charisma requirement. These are related because if Divine Wrath and Purge Infidel would scale more universally there’d be a benefit to taking Epic levels. It really restricts the usefulness of the class to charisma based base classes/builds. No matter how many class levels you take the usefulness of these abilities is limited by charisma.

Suggestions to remedy this are in a thread started by Tormak several months ago in IA.

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Chaggo - Colorful Hobgoblin Monk
Baegrevele Tsjos - Borne at sea, Live at sea, Die at sea.

I think having access to those feats in epic would allow DC to be used to emulate some other out of nwn classes, as well as making it viable for non wis/cha classes to portray an actual class based devotion to their God.

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Andre'us Larson : "Too many people died, I'll not let that happen again. Ever."
Tempest Rayne

Copy and Pasted Tormak's Thread here - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=88633



This is something I'd personally like seeing changed too, and there were a lot of good ideas in Tormak's thread, which is why I posted it in hopes they won't be forgotten. I still believe DC should gain the stat feats pre-epic though however, as it stands now the class just serves as a potential dump for wisdom based powerbuilds, which just serves one spectrum of play. Open the feat investments up however and I can already imagine new spellblade builds, barbarian, ranger, cleric, mostly everything, which can't hurt the server. The biggest issue I see would be STR based builds using it to dump into devastating critical for a rather minimal investment, but to be fair, DD's do the exact same thing just by taking the class without specifically building for it.

I'd still like to see more reward for taking DC into epic levels, but I feel this is more a core mechanic/investment/building issue then a little bit fluff improvements for those whom wanted to take divine champion into epic.

I'm pretty sure that changing a class' feats list would require a hak update. Also, no other class gets epic stat stuff pre-epic or even on their own class list so I don't really think expanding that list on DC is the best option. While it would open up more builds and let the class see more use, I think a better idea to open up more class diversity is instead giving each of the base classes their own great stat pre-epic access. Like STR for fighter, Dex for rogue, CON for barb, wis for cleric/druid, cha for sorc/pal and int for wizard, as just a rough suggestion as all the caster classes have this already + bards have access to great cha and dex. A change like that for DC or Fighter would most likely bring non-DD dev critters closer to the DC of their DD counterparts, which I'm not entirely convinced is a good thing but I think it's a better fit to give it to every base class rather than giving DC access to all of them.

Either way, I don't think something like this is likely to be implemented unless a hak update is on the horizon.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I'd be pretty leery about giving mages any means to up their DCs even more, really. Their DCs already outpace saves by a silly degree. Do you really want mages with +5 more DC?

I wouldn't.

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

It'd still require an epic level character, so say someone that's 10 wizard, 10 fighter at 20 picks 10 more wizard levels, they'd have access to the great int spells for their wizard bonus feat, same as they already do when in epic levels and thus wouldn't give you more wizard bonus feats to pick from unless you're a level 9 wizard at level 20 as there's 3 wizard bonus feats from 10 to 20, same as from 21 to 29. Thus I don't think it'd be the biggest change in the world or boost for mages unless you're going some 21 wizard X whatever nonsense and strategically sneak out 2 extra great ints rather than going for spellfocuses or metamagic.

If we opened up all great ability feats for divine champions, it'd actually give mages access to even more DC for less investment as you could grab 4 divine champion levels after level 20 to get +2 to your cast stat, +2 save to all saves and armor/shield/weapon feats at the cost of 1 class bonus feat at level 29 for most caster classes. I personally think opening it up for all class bonus feats to give 1 great stat usually tied to the class is a better option if it's to be done at all as in most cases it won't be a huge uproar and still require you to be an epic level character to actually get to pick the great stat feats.

Either way, I think it's a bit of a moot point because it'd require a hak update and would have to be discussed for balance if/when that happens or potentially cut in favor of other content that people would find more intriguing being added instead as dev time to add stuff is a highly valued commodity and could probably be best spent elsewhere in a hak update.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer