View unanswered posts | View active topics * FAQ    * Search
* Login 




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 11 posts ] 
Sanbert
 
PostPosted: Fri, Aug 24 2018, 13:21 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 15 Sep 2015

Hey everybody, been a while since I really posted here! Had a long break from the forums after life caught up with me but I'm back again and thinking about the game. I'm sure this may have come up before but never know when something different might happen so here I am! I think at the moment Kobolds are in a bad spot as a subrace. (I know goblin has it worse but that can be someone else's battle. :lol: ) For those that don't know the current bonuses you get as a Kobold are: +2 Dex, -4 Str, +2 Craft Trap, +2 Search, Alertness, Darkvision, Race- Reptilian, Halfling Feats removed.

My main gripe is the -4 Str, and some might say it gets compensation under getting a Feat and 2 +2's in skills. Said feat Alertness is a feat that No-one takes unless they're shooting for shifter because it's a pre-req.

+2 Craft trap is nice, if you're a rogue that wants to do that. And in all honesty I'm not sure what the purpose of search is if you take it slow. All of it kind of comes up as meh for compensation for another -2 to a Stat.

Also I think something that a lot of people over look is that you lose Halfling feats it sounds small but you get all this, Skill Affinity (MS and Listen) +2's to those, Lucky (Free Luck of Heroes) +1 to all saving throws, Fearless (Makes sense) +2 Morale against Spells and Effects with Fear, and Good Aim: +1 Racial Bonus to Attack rolls made with throwing weapons, That's quite a bit!

-4 Str isn't a killer but it hurts, more so when you lose so much and gain very little. Kobolds are a worse halfling currently mechanically and have heavy stigmas against them IC'ly that can push people away (Hated/Distrusted/and Enslaved by most races).

So I have two ideas on how to make them a little better without being silly and demanding far too much. Either 1) Keep the -4 and give another +2 (Int or Cha: Being they are magically inclined with dragon blood and their favored class is sorcerer.) Or 2) Knock the -4 down to -2. Simple as that! Of course I'd like to hear other's ideas should your views differ!

I had a bit of Foresight and thought up a mini FAQ for a couple possible concerns I thought of while writing this.

1) "Why Kobolds?"
I like the race, a lot of people do or rather a lot of people did. They have their own areas in both A and B (Albeit B's is much less nice but fitting for what it is.) I'd like to see more of the little guys, maybe give some hins a run for their money :D

2) "Would this change confer an ECL?"
No, At least I don't think so +2 Dex, -2 Str or -4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 ???. Isn't all that crazy, A Ghostwise Halfling gets +2 Dex -2 Str. +2 to 2 skills and -2 one other, along with a spell like ability as well as keeping all the halfling bonus feats. You can also look at all the Genasi templates which keep their racial feats, have +2 -2's, and some get a few pretty powerful spells (Albeit I think they can be banished.)

3) "Why now?"
Why not, the server isn't going anywhere just yet. People are around and I think it would be a rather easy change.

4) "Why does it matter?"
I think the downsides I listed are a big deal, and people think about those when they come to try out a race. I also think a change to a race now of all times may get some people to make them out of curiosity and some may come to enjoy the little guys.

(Edit: Small Edits to make it easier to read with highlights and breaking up dense information to be easier to track.)

_________________
The Kobold Squad!-
Zerithy- Joy loving Silver.
Krang- Level headed Monk.
Levex Laraek- Aspiring Magi.
Vyth Kepsek "Ice-Fang"- Nail of Auril.


Last edited by Sanbert on Sat, Aug 25 2018, 12:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Fri, Aug 24 2018, 16:41 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 10 May 2015

Even with what seems to be stacked odds against Kobolds and Goblins there's many subtle advantages to being small sized. AC is so utterly desireable, AB too which you get +1 to both for being small and a build that ignores strength is going to be as balanced as a halfling doing the same (save one or two minor feats and carry weight).

Alertness is good if you intend to play to that strength, a kobold has several builds stronger (metaphorically) than a human picking Alertness.

Lore wise Kobolds are supposed to be underdogs (heh, puns) and buffing them (to me) is a nerf to their flavour. The current iteration is the closest one gets to being lore friendly.

If I were to give Kobold any buff, I'd give them Snake Blood as a racial feat. That should even the odds ever so slightly.

_________________
You will likely not see me as:

Fymor Trueshot


 
      
Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Sat, Aug 25 2018, 6:30 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 17 Dec 2015

I will say my piece on it that any hin-framed character going strength focused for a build without adding Dragon Disciple somewhere in the mix really needs to rethink what they are doing.

As such having a kobolds strength at -4 doesn't generally have any alteration on general builds for the toon at all. As if you are going melee you are either doing

Dragon Disciple: Where the strength bonuses make this issue irrelevant.
or
Dexer: Which strength is not your primary stat for literally anything short of boosting it for base damage.

That being said.

My personal opinion is there is absolutely nothing, lore or otherwise, to suggest that they -should- have -4 strength versus the standard -2 that goblins/hins have.

Even the underdog argument. If that were the case than goblins would have the same -4 strength disadvantage. Which is not the case here.

There is absolutely nothing to justify stunting a kobold at -4 vs -2 other than personal RP choice of certain players. Which then my argument would be if you want to RP that mechanically build with that in mind and do not force that onto other people. Just because them being underdogs and retaining that -4 strength for absolutely no justifiable reason is something you enjoy to play in RP does not mean that everyone else on the server would. As such there is no reason for it to be -4 vs -2.

If that's what you wish to RP just leave out 2 strength when stating something. Versus enforcing your RP ideals unto other people.

My personal suggestion: Either revert it to -2 strength or give them something like immunity to poison(due to the reptilian blood) or give them a bonus +2 CHA to justify the -4 STR

_________________
Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar


 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Aug 25 2018, 16:46 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 08 Oct 2012

The only reason I would see in favor for the -4 str is if they want to limit the number of kobolds running about (so that those who pick the race are doing so out of love and dedication, rather than potential power source???????????....???)

Perhaps the race-change is also valued in the power scale? No idea.

_________________
Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526


 
      
Sanbert
 
PostPosted: Sat, Aug 25 2018, 19:06 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 15 Sep 2015

Mushidoz wrote:
The only reason I would see in favor for the -4 str is if they want to limit the number of kobolds running about (so that those who pick the race are doing so out of love and dedication, rather than potential power source?


I feel like that would be a very... poor reasoning. If you want less of a race played there are better ways to limit the population rather than making it undesirable mechanically. I honestly think the team who put it as is was trying to keep somewhat close to source as kobolds are a generally weak race. (They are literally CR ΒΌ) However that doesn't adjust well into an actual playable PC.

Even given this is changed however is seen fit, you're most likely still better off picking a hin or whatever from a mechanical standpoint.

DukeDublin wrote:
Even with what seems to be stacked odds against Kobolds and Goblins there's many subtle advantages to being small sized. AC is so utterly desireable, AB too which you get +1 to both for being small and a build that ignores strength is going to be as balanced as a halfling doing the same (save one or two minor feats and carry weight).


I don't really see the point here as Hin/Gnomes (and the subraces that fall under them) All have this, it's not like exclusive to the two or even make up for anything aside from the downsides of being small.

DukeDublin wrote:
Alertness is good if you intend to play to that strength, a kobold has several builds stronger (metaphorically) than a human picking Alertness.


I guess, but if you're doing anything with alertness it's going to be a shifter build or your skilling hard in a melee/range build which means you need Str/Dex/Con (varying amounts depending on build) for having gear on you, your general dex needs, and not dying. On top of Int for the points to throw away and some Wis to make use of the skill without penalty (I know it's a pain, I have an assassin bold) as casters don't get Spot or Listen as skills. Free feats are nice and all but normal hin get twice as many and 2 more Str.

DukeDublin wrote:
Lore wise Kobolds are supposed to be underdogs (heh, puns) and buffing them (to me) is a nerf to their flavour. The current iteration is the closest one gets to being lore friendly.


I don't really understand this one, changing how something works mechanically doesn't take away from it's lore more over when it only effects PC's who typically end up being paragons for their race. (You can't tell me every Water Genasi by lore has a free Icestorm.)

_________________
The Kobold Squad!-
Zerithy- Joy loving Silver.
Krang- Level headed Monk.
Levex Laraek- Aspiring Magi.
Vyth Kepsek "Ice-Fang"- Nail of Auril.


 
      
The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 26 2018, 1:21 AM 



Player

Joined: 08 Nov 2016

As a sole kobold player what I want from kobolds is their disadvantage. Having a disadvantage is a deep seated potential that one needs to unlock through both rp and mechanical means. Also, something I have noticed over the server in general is that kobold players have been some of the most memorable heroes and villians even with their heavy disadvantage. So, based on my personal take and evidence that I have seen kobolds are some of the most rapid of waters out there if you dedicate yourself to them and keep an open mind to their strengths.

_________________
"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."


 
      
Sanbert
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 26 2018, 3:59 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 15 Sep 2015

The Little Dragon wrote:
Having a disadvantage is a deep seated potential that one needs to unlock through both rp and mechanical means.


I can somewhat agree with this... but at the same time... no? See the big difference between here and table top is at a table there are many more things you can do despite your weaknesses if you work hard and think about things. We're not playing tabletop, we're at a game with set mechanics and rules and most of the time the DM isn't going to be personally helping you to make up for the fact you're genuinely weaker than other races.

The Little Dragon wrote:
Also, something I have noticed over the server in general is that kobold players have been some of the most memorable heroes and villians even with their heavy disadvantage.


I don't think so? Can you list some?

The Little Dragon wrote:
So, based on my personal take and evidence that I have seen kobolds are some of the most rapid of waters out there if you dedicate yourself to them and keep an open mind to their strengths.


They have one strength, They can get to shifter with one free feat and get another to toss around. Anything else they can do another race can do better. A DD build that's not a kobold will end up with more STR and a Dexer will have more Carry weight and slightly higher base damage.

As for the Stagnant Waters bit I was kinda making an inside joke at the Mire and more how there aren't a lot of kobold players left anymore. I can think of three people that consistently play them and two of them are me and you.

I'll also reiterate this isn't going to make a difference in how YOU play your character or how ANYONE should react to them. If your character is a weakling play a weakling, but this is about making the race somewhat more balanced and more approachable. Ask yourself, if the little guys were on par with hin would you ask for nerfs to them to make them fit your idea of what they should be?

_________________
The Kobold Squad!-
Zerithy- Joy loving Silver.
Krang- Level headed Monk.
Levex Laraek- Aspiring Magi.
Vyth Kepsek "Ice-Fang"- Nail of Auril.


 
      
The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 26 2018, 22:50 PM 



Player

Joined: 08 Nov 2016

Sanbert wrote:
I can somewhat agree with this... but at the same time... no? See the big difference between here and table top is at a table there are many more things you can do despite your weaknesses if you work hard and think about things. We're not playing tabletop, we're at a game with set mechanics and rules and most of the time the DM isn't going to be personally helping you to make up for the fact you're genuinely weaker than other races.


Don't think of the mechanics, think of the story you want to tell about the character.

Sanbert wrote:
I don't think so? Can you list some?


Arelith: Vippin and Dartak.
Amia: Kurchin.
I know not of others, but those stick out. The reason they succeed is because they didn't attempt to be the best, though Dartak was a power build, but because they had a purpose.

Sanbert wrote:
They have one strength, They can get to shifter with one free feat and get another to toss around. Anything else they can do another race can do better. A DD build that's not a kobold will end up with more STR and a Dexer will have more Carry weight and slightly higher base damage.


Then don't try to beat them mechanically.

Sanbert wrote:
As for the Stagnant Waters bit I was kinda making an inside joke at the Mire and more how there aren't a lot of kobold players left anymore. I can think of three people that consistently play them and two of them are me and you.


This has nothing to do with mechanics though and more about a playerbase who had decided that they lost interest Amia. If they mean that much to you, ask them to come back. I know they are not the conflict oriented types and perfer a more safe rp, like you. I am not sure how this can be done out with out them coming into conflict with others, though perhaps if they stayed within their complex and rp'd as kobolds away from the whole, then they may enjoy themselves. I feel however, things could be worked out if it came through, though I also feel that something could be worked out if they decided to play again.

Sanbert wrote:
I'll also reiterate this isn't going to make a difference in how YOU play your character or how ANYONE should react to them. If your character is a weakling play a weakling, but this is about making the race somewhat more balanced and more approachable. Ask yourself, if the little guys were on par with hin would you ask for nerfs to them to make them fit your idea of what they should be?


If I was to buff kobolds, it would be an economical buff allowing them to amass more wealth from mining and industry, not war. Think about it like this, a kobold people are an economy based race, who want to be left alone. Kobolds are not a combat oriented race.

_________________
"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."


 
      
Sanbert
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 27 2018, 2:11 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 15 Sep 2015

Little I understand but I must reiterate. This is a video game, everything we do has to be done within the rules of the game, therefore it's mechanics based. Unless a DM is around the only thing that can matter is the mechanics. Also the only way to make any tangible amount of coin anymore is through loot. There's only a hand full of items that people are wanting to pay for anymore on the job system and most of those are only around 20k-10k which anyone with a half decent build can get far more than from running Beastmen once.

_________________
The Kobold Squad!-
Zerithy- Joy loving Silver.
Krang- Level headed Monk.
Levex Laraek- Aspiring Magi.
Vyth Kepsek "Ice-Fang"- Nail of Auril.


 
      
Hrothmus
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 27 2018, 13:45 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Location: Virginia

Mechanics are definitely important, but RP trumps mechanics 10 times out of 10.

I'm disheartened to hear that people feel that grinding loot is the only way to make money.

There are scores of people that grind loot and have nothing substantial to spend their coin on.

This is where you come in with selling services or other such commodities. Gather and sell intel, become a merchant and middle man high end loot transaction, take a crafting job, there are many ways to make money or acquire items without resorting to hunting.

And I disagree with your statement about "Unless a DM is around". This is a fundamental problem with some of the RP these days. Some people only toggle the RP switch when they think a DM is in the area. We are not a hunting server, we are an RP server. The server should revolve around RP and RP should and can be the primary means of acquiring whatever you want for your character.

_________________
Characters:

Fel'Brin - I am one with the shadows


 
      
Sanbert
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 27 2018, 17:33 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 15 Sep 2015

You're right and I'm sorry for stating it as such, RP is very important and I should have worded it differently.

What I meant is that mechanics are what matter in combat. There's no time to stop and emote, describe how you're trying to go at something, or be fancy and try something that should logically work but doesn't because it's a game. That is the difference I meant between table top and here.

I completely agree that rp is important, I try to keep in character as often as possible. I'm fully willing to agree there are many ways to make money, intel could work, middle manning as a kobold might be a bit harder as we receive a -5% to interactions with most surfacers, The jobs system is nice but you need to be higher level to get some of the nice materials to make the stuff or have the gold to buy it from another.

_________________
The Kobold Squad!-
Zerithy- Joy loving Silver.
Krang- Level headed Monk.
Levex Laraek- Aspiring Magi.
Vyth Kepsek "Ice-Fang"- Nail of Auril.


 
      
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 11 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group