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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 6:35 AM 

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

This is part suggestion, part discussion.

Would it be fun, worthwhile*, and balanced to allow Dragon Disciple levels to apply to Evocation spells, like Pale Master levels apply to Necromancy?

*Worthwhile, as in there are players who would actually want to build around this.


DD is in the same boat PM was before its changes: it's fairly powerful overall, but its benefits are skewed towards meleers, despite it having an Arcane pre-req. I'd hope that this change wouldn't affect many melee builds. Most don't care about their spellcasting ability. And most go Bard anyway, which has a limited amount of Evocation spells in the first place.

Why Evocation?

The magical-blood nerd in me would like nothing more than to see every draconic line paired with its spell-like abilities and schools(I.E. Blues get boosts to Illusion, Reds/Golds to Divination). But that would be way too damn complicated. Instead, letting them all apply to Evocation at least allows the majority of our Draconic colors to use their elemental energy in spells effectively(Sorry Shadow and Green, not my fault spell schools are a mechanical construct). Anyway, it's a pretty big school with a versatile repertoire and a few BoT pages that allow PCs to change their element to one that matches their draconic heritage.

In the end, if you decide to go say 20 Sorc/10 DD, you'll still be able to hit things as hard as you should with your signature spells, like lightning bolts, fireballs, cones of cold and ice storms, etc.

Builds and Balance:

This is where I need my munchins to chime in. What are some good reasons not to have this as an option? Looking beyond the dev time and everything else that is already a hurdle. What's the hidden cheese here? For instance, one thing I see being a possible issue is Flame Weapon. A few Bard/DD builds do go high enough to get Flame Weapon, which is in fact Evocation. That means some of those higher level, melee-oriented builds would be given access to higher level FW with this... Maybe somewhat fitting, and basically the only thing of use they could do with their spells, but it bears keeping in mind.

I just think it should be a viable option as a magical character to go "gee, I wanna explore my arcane ancestry" without totally screwing over any notion of being a viable arcane caster. Dragons are some of the most magical creatures in Toril, after all. Choosing to go down the DD path certainly means you're not as powerful with all-around magic like another mage, but when it comes to wielding your ancestor's elemental weapon, it'd make sense for you remain a force to be reckoned with.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 6:37 AM 

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No can do without a hak, hence why we went the route we did. Else we would have revamped RDD completely different to begin with. Aka with extra spellslots and whatnot and boohja instead of full mere stat changes. But then instead, not on top of all the stuff they got.

The original idea was to make it work with sorcerer in spell progression and all. But without a hak, no can do for any of all of this.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 6:54 AM 

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

I was figuring we could straight up have the spell scripts look for DD levels and apply that to the Caster Level to determine damage. It doesn't solve the progression or SR problem, but at least it would be something.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 7:25 AM 

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Joined: 13 Oct 2006

Its doable but I don't think it would be appropriate balance wise. RDD is really quite powerful right now.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 7:52 AM 

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

"Power" isn't a universal value, though. Things are powerful in different areas. E.G. If you gave Fighter a free Spell Focus at level 20, you've added to the "power" of the class, but it wouldn't mean squat to 99% of the builds. That is of course a silly scenario, but you get the idea.

What I'm saying is that the added CL to spells shouldn't make any of the current powerful DD builds more powerful. 10 Ftr/2 Brd/18 DD for example gains absolutely no benefits from this. But the class becomes at least a little more viable for other archetypes in the process.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 13:54 PM 

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Joined: 24 Jan 2017
Location: Deutschland

While I really like this idea I have two problems with it:

1.: There are too many DDs for my taste already. The class is strong and I don't blame anyone who ... well fucking likes dragon wings, I mean come on who doesnt? But the sheer amount of Dragon Disciples on Amia make me not wanna play one, just so I don't contribute to the "Well everyones a Disciple anyways" feeling on the server... But doing this would spawn -even more- and they'd be the norm, imagine a world in which normal, non subrace, non Dragon Disciple Humans were fucking exotic as hell. Yes.

2.: I think... this would spawn insanely strong spellblades, but I might be wrong here.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 27 2017, 21:35 PM 

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Quote:
2.: I think... this would spawn insanely strong spellblades, but I might be wrong here.


I'm trying to think of some, but none seem to jump out at me. Doesn't mean they don't exist, though, which is why I'm looking to folk to try to chug out some possible builds.

Without actual spell progression and spell slots gained, you'd be limited to the spells you already know from your spellcasting class. As well, most "spellblade" builds would revolve around buffing and casting Tenser's. They're not usually the type to go blasting with Evocation... because you can't under Tenser's. What you instead want is a decent actual CL(23, 26) for bonus feats and so you don't get dispelled while you're in mage roid-rage.

With spell slots, spell progression, DD adding to SR checks(which would require a HAK which is not likely at the moment), you might get some interesting hybrid builds. None that mean much until they can also get EMA. 10 Sorc/16 DD/4 Ftr? A middling meleer with a couple of 15d6 Firebrands and all other spells as a 10th level Sorcerer. 23 Sorc/4 DD/3 Somethin'? Already exists about the same, and it doesn't matter if you're going for a spellsword or a caster, the only bonus is like 4 additional dice on your Meteor Swarms. The rest are already maxed out. If anything, it points out to me that it's probably not worth doing anything, at least without a HAK. Pure damage increase wouldn't make a caster-oriented DD much more viable.

I'd agree with wanting to see more diversity in PCs. That mainly comes from pouring more love and effort into other classes. All the same, there aren't nearly as many DD's as there were a year or so ago.

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Ulir
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 1:43 AM 

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Joined: 09 Mar 2009

I'd play a spellblade for sure. ;)

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 31 2018, 1:53 AM 

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Kinda late to the party. But the aforementioned points still stand:

->RDD "spellblades" would actually suck, given than on Amia "spellblades" rely on Tenser's and you'd be limited to already known spells.
->Traditionally, the only spells such builds focus on are buff, utility, and Saveless spells(not affected by an Evocation boost)
->Can't happen without a hak, or serious script fiddling, which means no time in the foreseeable future.

Also, you already play a spellsword. Get in game so I can swat at you already. :P

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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 03 2018, 18:24 PM 

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Joined: 09 Jun 2012
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RDD has been decidedly made primarily a really strong melee class. It's better off staying that way than becoming a weak half caster like it is in pnp. It's playable and strong but still killable but gives WM a strong competitor for best melee class.

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