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Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 7 posts ] 
thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 18 2017, 3:28 AM 

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Joined: 18 Oct 2016

Blackguard Summon Fiend has a very odd level progression. I believe a change to the progression would make more sense and enhance usability.

Current State
You get the 1st fiend from BG levels 5-14
You get the 2nd fiend at BG 15
You get the 3rd Fiend at BG 16 by taking Epic Fiendish Servant.

You have the 1st Fiend until reaching Character Level 25 at minimum, then by Character Level 26 the typical BG has EFS. The middle tier exists for only a single level at mid-Epic then is immediately replaced by a much better summon. This makes no sense. Expecting any summon to maintain effectiveness spanning 10 character levels (the 1st Fiend) is totally unreasonable and doesn’t occur in any other class. The 1st Fiend is effectively useless for many levels before it's replaced.

My suggestion:
Make the Summon Fiend upgrade more like the existing BG Create Undead progression. For Create Undead the Wraith is BG 6-11 then upgrades to Dread Wraith at BG 12+. So, move the 2nd Fiend upgrade point from BG15 to BG12. Moving the upgrade point to BG12 shortens the 1st Fiend span to 7 levels (which is still rather long) and increases the 2nd Fiend level span from 1 to 4 levels, meaning it will actually have a purpose for a time in the low-mid Epic levels.

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Chaggo - Colorful Hobgoblin Monk
Baegrevele Tsjos - Borne at sea, Live at sea, Die at sea.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:37 AM 

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I'd suggest 5-10, then 11-15, then BG epic fiend.

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Tue, Nov 28 2017, 19:46 PM 

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That would work too. You still wait until early Epic for the upgrade. Kinda surprised there’s not more comment on this. Maybe it speaks to the dearth of BGs or players in general. Do we really think having the same summon for 10 levels (to mid epic range) is remotely reasonable or realistic?

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Chaggo - Colorful Hobgoblin Monk
Baegrevele Tsjos - Borne at sea, Live at sea, Die at sea.


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Nov 28 2017, 23:06 PM 

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Joined: 20 Jan 2006

Tormaks suggestion seems reasonable.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Nov 28 2017, 23:10 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

I only know the theory, since I've never had a BG go into epics, but it always seemed weird. The Erinyes manages pretty well at the level you get it, but anything over minos, it tends to struggle. That said, I've not seen the level 15 summon much, but it would almost seem a bit strong for a level 11 BG, which means stingers, brog orcs and maybe frost giants... I've seen it manage in fire giants.


 
      
thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 30 2018, 2:50 AM 

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Robbi - Of course you wouldn't see the Tier2 BG Fiend, it's only around for 1 level, then replaced by EFS. I've never seen one.

The point is that from about CL17-CL25 you don't really have a suitable summon. I don't mind having a summon struggle for a few levels at the top of it's range where you need to babysit it, but this is way beyond that. If changing the Tier 2 Fiend to be acquired at BG11 means it has to be tweaked to be suitable for use from CL21-CL25, then so be it. Right now it's effectively never used and there's a giant hole in the progression you could drive a truck through. A hole it could fill.

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Chaggo - Colorful Hobgoblin Monk
Baegrevele Tsjos - Borne at sea, Live at sea, Die at sea.


 
      
thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Thu, Aug 23 2018, 15:27 PM 

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I'm back playing my BG and noticed there wasn't any additional comment on this. Reading through the NWNWIKI for the Summon Fiend feat and I noticed in the feat notes that the vanilla NWN progression upgrades the Fiend at BG9 to match Greater Planar Binding spell.

Changing the progression just to match that would also make a big difference, if the suggestions above are a bridge too far. Dragging a 6th level summons (what we have now) thru Nesek is a chore and anyplace more difficult it's impossible (Brog? Ha). Upgrading to an 8th level summon along the way would extend it's usefulness while you wait for the Epic Fiend to kick in at CL26.

_________________
Chaggo - Colorful Hobgoblin Monk
Baegrevele Tsjos - Borne at sea, Live at sea, Die at sea.


 
      
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