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SkyfallingHaven
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 15 2017, 19:46 PM 

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Loot Drop Rate



Alright, so I would like to make a suggestion for an improvement on the server that I think would help a bit. Personally it may be asking for too much, but I think it would honestly make a bit of difference to consider and honestly crunch numbers on. So, with this I would like to suggest the loot drop rate system be raised a bit. The reasons for this are quite simple and honestly I think it is a good time to change a bit.

By increasing the drop rate of items from monsters from 5% to 10% there will be a good amount of change that makes hunting kind of worth it. For every spawn we kill it rolls a d100 in regard for loot. We have at best a 5% chance to get loot from a drop, which is random and there is very few times that the loot dropped is even half decent unless with a party.

The reason I believe this is important is because not everyone can manage to hunt in parties, due to time zones and in truth a lot of people just don't spam hunting like they used to. I am pretty sure for good reason this has happened, but from hunting a fair bit I have come to the conclusion that you tend to spend more if certain classes on even gearing out to hunt, then what you actually make from hunting in general. Good sinks are all fine and dandy, if you actually can get the gold to sink without killing yourself grinding.

By this small increase there will be a bit of a tip in actual drop rate, making the hunting a little more worth it. I would suggest this for epic boss hunting as well, because in truth the 5% drop rate on a epic item is a bit silly. Even normal dungeons and dragons has a better gain then this, which is strange. By the time you actually remotely get to a boss you tend to have used more supplies then you gain. On top of that lovely feeling of running bosses over 100 times without a single drop. It feels like a waste of time, to anyone really and resources. Also the fact you can literally grind other things for far cheaper, then simply wait two weeks and go to a shop and get a item better or on par with such found items.

This to me and I am sure many others is a bit of a turn off. It is not exactly appealing or inspiring to a player base to move forward and get parties together when you end up with such a low chance at getting anything. Let alone a on top of the 5% chance if it drops very well likely be something that is not useful at all. So like I said, I suggest a increase from drop rate from 5% to 10% at least. It is not that much of a strain on people, except maybe will get people out a little more instead of just hanging around one spot. As it sits right now, there is little gain to hunting and it is felt harshly. So feel free to post your opinions on this.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 15 2017, 22:02 PM 

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Afraid I personally have to disagree.

Gaining money on Amia is already rediculously easy. Making it even more easy isn't really an improvement, imho, but simply will increase the gap of having (eventually) crazy amounts of money which will make money even more worth/useless.

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Cratz
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 15 2017, 22:05 PM 

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Not to mention the effect it will have on the economy IG.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 0:48 AM 

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Maybe if it were only changed for mobs, rather than bosses? Or maybe if it was higher for lower tires, and lower for higher tires?

You say it is ridiculously easy, and that's true for certain builds, but some builds have a lot harder time, especially the ones that can't solo epic bosses.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 0:51 AM 

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We speak of gold here. Not epic items.

There are several areas on B where you can make 200-300k in an hour in ECL 12-18 areas.

Even the shittiest lvl 30 build can handle those <.< Even a build made by the recommend button can handle those.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 0:54 AM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
We speak of gold here. Not epic items.

There are several areas on B where you can make 200-300k in an hour in ECL 12-18 areas.

Even the shittiest lvl 30 build can handle those <.< Even a build made by the recommend button can handle those.


Well, I used to do beastmen a lot, earned about 200k a run and it took 15-20 min I think, which is not too shabby. Now I earn around 60k a run.

I admit, I never farm at B so I would not have known. My bad.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 1:01 AM 

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Shadowfiend wrote:
Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
We speak of gold here. Not epic items.

There are several areas on B where you can make 200-300k in an hour in ECL 12-18 areas.

Even the shittiest lvl 30 build can handle those <.< Even a build made by the recommend button can handle those.


Well, I used to do beastmen a lot, earned about 200k a run and it took 15-20 min I think, which is not too shabby. Now I earn around 60k a run.

I admit, I never farm at B so I would not have known. My bad.


To be fair i find B too complicated to find anything on even if i've been shown and when i port over there its normally night so hunting doesn't happen then. I have to say i have never hunted an area and got 200k in an hours worth of play. I can only guess that people are in groups when soloing these areas and getting drops to sell. If you are talking about straight gold then the 65gp per kill at times isn't going to net you massive gains for the amount you spend on preping... or perhaps i'm just bad at it?

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 1:10 AM 

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Minotaurs. Stingers. basically all of Khem.

Night or daytime does not matter either.

Most characters should be able to handle yuan-ti too even if they have a semi-great build. Same with Brog orcs. Brog barbarians.

All those are around lvl 20 and a poorly made lvl 30 can still handle that.


If you have a non power but at least semi-decent build, you should still be able to handle fire giants, if you slap on a bit of fire resist, a mindblank and a bubbly.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 2:59 AM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Minotaurs. Stingers. basically all of Khem.

Night or daytime does not matter either.

Most characters should be able to handle yuan-ti too even if they have a semi-great build. Same with Brog orcs. Brog barbarians.

All those are around lvl 20 and a poorly made lvl 30 can still handle that.


If you have a non power but at least semi-decent build, you should still be able to handle fire giants, if you slap on a bit of fire resist, a mindblank and a bubbly.


I'll have to have a look at those. I know for a fact soloing fire giants costs me far more in buying stuff to go in what i get back. For some reason they just eat through my AC all the time and while i have some fire resist it is a constant heal battle so i avoid it unless with someone who can tank the damage. Even my badger struggles as i can't ward him against the spells the witches spam.

I confess though i haven't tried it recently but unless i'm mythal hunting it isn't a place i go for gold.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 3:53 AM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Afraid I personally have to disagree.

Gaining money on Amia is already rediculously easy. Making it even more easy isn't really an improvement, imho, but simply will increase the gap of having (eventually) crazy amounts of money which will make money even more worth/useless.


It is easy... with certain builds, yes (namely spells). However, if you're not those builds, making a net profit is nigh impossible. By that I mean, many builds (mostly those without a full spellbook of some sort) will pretty much almost never make any profit from an outing for one simple reason: potions (and other "consumables"). If you're some sort of "mundane" build who has to rely on potions to get by the cost of those potions will usually not just destroy any profit you might have earned, but eat into the money you started with.

The cost of potions, scrolls, wands and other etceteras to run most characters without a full spellbook is pretty high given the individual cost of such things in shops is expensive. It'd be a good move to lower these prices imo, or perhaps up the "gold drop" you get for the ondeath of monsters (which is really pitiful for the most part).

And for the most part, we don't really have an economy that has a use for gold. Money has no real value endgame, it just piles up for those of us who can accrue it. Most people who have epic gear to trade want other bits of epic gear for it. Those of us who want something substantive for our money, have nothing meaningful to blow it on.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 12:56 PM 

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About gold:

Call me weird and crazy, or dedicated and cool (who knows!), but my character Saya tends not to grab any loot when she goes out - unless it is very light (she complains when stuff are heavy and wants nothing to do with them - she also doesn't care with gold). She's a character that cannot solo epic bosses, or go in epic places unless she has some assistance. Moreover, when that character "sells" stuff, she often will make deals that don't involve gold (trading an item against a promise, or ask them to perform good deeds in exchange for something, etc.). Despite all that, Saya is almost entirely fully geared with epic items, and she -still- has 500 000 gold left on her! and that amount is only low because not that long ago I bought Ania's entire deity ring collection off Hil'rash (almost 3 bags full of rings that costed me 30 to 40k each)..... I've been dodging loots for more than a year now, and I still have gold on her. For those who don't believe me, just ask anyone who's ever gone out to "hunt" with Saya or traded with her.


About drops:

You can go in low level places, as Amarice mentioned, and get a pretty good profit from it with pretty much any builds. In fact, one of the great places that haven't been mentioned is in Howness. While there aren't that many creatures in the spawns, it seems to me like the spawn rates of 100% drop special monsters is very high (and they drop +3 items, which net pretty good profit). Also, something people seem to not do anymore is to stop by and sell items to other players! They don't have to be epics -- some items easily find owners and net a decent amount (Fortification cloaks +3 / +4, books of transmutation, boots with AC on them, deity rings, etc.) People rely too much on Hil'rash... who's not the best merchant when it comes to buying your stuff, by the way. I kinda miss Cordor trading hall being full of people just squatting there and selling all sorts of stuff and roleplaying.


About epics:

I used to be one of the people who suggested / supported the idea of increasing the epic loot % from 5 to 6 when in a party. However, I'm not sure this is needed anymore. With Amarice including new epic items in the lootbin will also come the near removal of many of the shit drops from it in the form of removing all the weapons and replacing them with "ores" that can be forged to give you the weapon of your choice. This is a direct (yet indirect) form of increasing the odds of getting good / useful epics from your drops. With that change, I'm not sure if increasing the drop rate -now- is a good idea, not until we see what the effect of these ores will have on the economy.

--------

So yeah.. just, try and find a party if all of those fail? The party advertizer list is almost always empty :/

P.S. If you want me to help you in game to tell you nice spots, do not hesitate to ask Aru! :)

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 14:00 PM 



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Troll alert:
Mushidoz wrote:
that cannot solo epic bosses

You showed me an epic boss she can solo :P
(I know, lots of people don't count Braxat as 'epic')

On a more serious note, I noticed a few weird things: The first being Yuan-ti. I can't fathom how those are for ECL 20. My level 24 RDD gets shredded, my level 23 Cleric gets shredded... To me, at least, the change made them incredibly strong, where all of my characters don't even manage the first spawn, or at least have to drink a heal potion for it... The RDD used to manage to solo the old ones, but the abominations tear him new holes. Lots of new holes.

Gold is pretty easy to get anyway. Running through minos or Stingers (if you can break or pick the doors), Epic Bosses and the way there (Fire Giants or Duergar, for example) tend to give decent gold and loot, and most builds manage there. Also, at least the way I buff with potions (animal buffs, garlic wine, (or bubblies instead) MB, and you don't really need more) mean a single loot drop from stingers or higher tends to restock all my gold. And, on average, you'll have a loot drop every three or four spawns.

And 60 gp isn't much, but let's say we get an average of 40 gp per kill over the whole 5-30 grind (5 because you'll have quests and stuff, which is a total of 9k from quests, and 1k at level 1 so you start at 2), and you always kill stuff that gives 40 xp per kill (which I believe both numbers are somewhat realistic), you'll have killed 10625 monsters, and gained 425 thousand gold. And in my experience, you get more gold per kill than you do xp... The grind to 30 gets you at least half a million. And that is if we imagine you were the unluckiest person ever, and never got a single loot. My most gear-tight characters, that needed new gear relatively often and also drank lots of potions got past the million at around level 25-27. Wizards and Clerics can get there even earlier, and going out hunting with friends/faction members gets you a lot as well.

And like Mushidoz said, trade with others! One of my characters, an Assassin/MS, so no need for a BoT, and she never used the Ability page, collected a full BoT, and sold it for four hundred thousand. And I bought the pages for around 100-1k from Hil'Rash, and thre book itself for 4 gold. I sold a +4 fort cloak for 100k, deity rings can get pretty good prices, because of rarity. Of course, some items are more niche, like deity rings, or a BoT, but the right people will pay lots for one. And even the post-epic drops, the 4.5 drops, like Hekaton Shield (old shield of the triad) and stuff like those, I've seen quite a few people making really nice gold from sitting in Cordor and selling those. Money really isn't a problem. And I think the changes to the loot system will help you get more useful stuff.


I find it a bit sad though, that especially higher levels don't have as many hunting parties. As a level 27, finding groups to hunt can be a bit challenging, sometimes.


 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 14:10 PM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Troll alert:
Mushidoz wrote:
that cannot solo epic bosses

You showed me an epic boss she can solo :P
(I know, lots of people don't count Braxat as 'epic')


I -think- she could probably solo that boss yes :D... but she can't get there if she kills everything along the way! :D

Also forgot to mention that Master Scouts that can make the weapon-enhancing items, or any character who can make wands, or truestrike potions is likely to be ridiculously rich without even trying. Another perk of being a caster..

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 15:02 PM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
robbi320 wrote:
Troll alert:
Mushidoz wrote:
that cannot solo epic bosses

You showed me an epic boss she can solo :P
(I know, lots of people don't count Braxat as 'epic')


I -think- she could probably solo that boss yes :D... but she can't get there if she kills everything along the way! :D

Also forgot to mention that Master Scouts that can make the weapon-enhancing items, or any character who can make wands, or truestrike potions is likely to be ridiculously rich without even trying. Another perk of being a caster..


It cost 500gp a time to craft them to start with so they cost gold to make gold not to mention you need the full five levels in the class to do so anyway... so they are not a quick cash cow.!

Sure I could sell them but ICly don't because it goes against type for my character anyway!

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 15:52 PM 



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Well, it's similar to Saya then. If you don't use your ability to get lots money, it doesn't change how easy it would be. I know quite a few people that buy the essences, because for most normal people Flame Weapon only is fire, which does nothing against Fire Giants, or Sahuagin, for example.
Also, you only need four levels for the potions (which sell at a decent price as well, because CL 15 isn't as easy to get), essences and bombs, which most builds get quite a bit earlier usually than 5 MS.

I mean, yeah, they're not completely free, you need to find people who will buy them, but in the long run, they can make you really rich really fast. Just need to find the right price.
It's similar to Wand crafting in that regard. You can't just pull a wand out of nowhere, but if you have them, you can make a lot of money with them. Like, a lot. ImpInvis, Death Ward, Haste, they all sell for really good prices. And most people will be willing to provide wands themselves.


 
      
SkyfallingHaven
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 16:26 PM 

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It is good to know some new hunting grounds and all, but I do wonder one thing. Why is it that high levels have to go hunting in low level area's to earn coin? Is that not strange in itself. The area's suggested are for lower level character (by no means a bad thing) but it should seem weird you are suggesting to go to lower level area's to make more gold then a higher level area. It seems a bit reversed to how things should work, let alone occupying a low level area tends to involve taking it from other players training.

To me that seems a bit strange, that despite hard work it would be better just to massively spam lower area's. Due to the fact you make more from them, that seems more MMO style then MMO RPG. The rewards should be greater the higher you get, vs the rewards and way to make gold being only in 16-22 level area's. Huge gap there, in my personal opinion.

But, I do confess gold is pretty useless on the server at the moment. Other then recent changes, as people mostly try to trade for things as Might N Magic suggested. I have noticed this a long time now, but the recent changes seem more evident in it. I don't really believe the climb would be that much of a difference but at least you would feel a little more satisfied and rewarded for hard work. It still seems so odd to me we work hard to get leveled, then geared only to use that to beat on lower things to make a better profit. If that is really the case, then what is the challenge? What would be the point in going to higher level area's to fight? It would come off as pointless as you make much more spamming a low level place for half the time.

In regards to the epic bosses, well same sort of thing. We roll many dice per fight, so we hunt and have to roll 5 or below for a item. Low chance of success, on top of a second roll to see if the item is any good. Yet again, not a high chance. I have literally spoken to many people who hunt and they all say much the same thing, people are fighting over 50-80+ bosses to get a single item which tends to be crap. This means that say you hunt 6 bosses per reset, the resets are like 8-9 hours apart (Give or take if server crashes or not). The average day, you may on daily life get enough time to run it as I said a few times a go. In truth no one wants to hunt 6 bosses every reset, except for a few. That is still a very low chance at anything, with a great deal of time left in between. The pay off ratio is not good, to the amount of time spent doing the work. It would still take you a week - two weeks heavily grinding to perhaps get a single piece of loot. I just see it as unappealing in effort, especially lately with a older game. I mean little offense saying this, but I have just noticed a trend so had to voice it. Sorry.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 16:53 PM 



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Wow. Internet ate my post. I hate my life.

Basically, with the 25k cap on selling items, and minos giving items close to the 25k cap, they're more gold efficient, since they take less to kill.
Fire Giants, Abyss, Duergar, etc do have epic bosses though, and, compared to other bosses that are quick to get to, they are a lot easier.

Also, doing 6 bosses a reset isn't too difficult, it takes maybe half an hour, and gives you usually at least 100k, if not more, on a normal run. Let's say every three days, you manage to do the run twice, due to the reset being practical. That means, on average you get one item every three days... More if you grind more bosses, have people with you, or do more than one run per day.


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 16 2017, 21:59 PM 

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My main issue is if we _would_ do this the result would be:

- those already hunting a lot would get even richer
- those who do not hunt a lot because not the best hunting build would still stay mostly poor because they doubtfully would hunt more because of this.


The real fix, imho, would be fixing the level 0 - 2 lootbin on A, which is awful. B has the old 0 - 2 lootbin, hence why hunting there is much more gold efficient on lower levels.

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SkyfallingHaven
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 0:34 AM 

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See that is the thing, not a lot of people hunt really anymore. A few here and there when they are mostly bored, but there is little flavor to hunting and little satisfaction in the end game of it now. Before it used to be a lot more rewarding and in truth the trading was more frequent. So a few people may gain a little more gold, where as the whole may actually be able to get some gold without grinding lower level bins.

The few that are rich, what does it really effect? Items? Most people deal in item trade, few deal in gold trade. Those few who deal in gold trade, half the time do not even respond or reply to posts when sent. The auction board sort of shows this first hand, how few actually offer gold up for trade and how few who actually put up a auction even reply.

As for the some who do not hunt a lot, perhaps it is because it is not really worth it in the long run as it is set now? The 0-2 lootbins don't really do much for people to begin with. Most tend to jump into role play and use DC tokens to level on the lower levels because you make more exp, gold and save on potions which you tend not to be able to afford. Builds do play a role in this, some people don't wish to be power builds for sake of rp. There are others who have strong builds, but lack the experience in playing them. So personally I do think the change would make a difference, it would not be so significant it would tilt the scale of the server. But it would make a few things more worth it, perhaps inspire more player initiatives as there would be a higher chance of actually earning something of worth.

As it stands though, there is a balance in gold/items that is lacking. Some shops and few players manage to come out on top but all in all it is a bit one sided. Thinking about it in real life terms to time spent, would you put the effort in for 5% for years? I just honestly can't see it. I will say as a bar tender in the past a 5% tip, is a sign of bad service as you always want to aim for 10-15%. Same concept in a game, 5% is not a lot at all 10% not that big of a tip, just small increase to help the actual balance. The rich may get richer, but at least the poor have a chance.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 1:16 AM 

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The poor still won't get a chance because they still will not enjoy hunting if they do not like hunting. And hence still won't do it. You can get a lot of gold already with very little effort, trust me. On RP builds too and alone too. Without blowing tremendous amounts for potions aswell.

As was also confirmed above already by a lot of people!

My opinion, anyways. I will bow out for now and let the other DM and Devs hopefully mention theirs too.

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Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 1:38 AM 

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Heh... i would like to see Epic loot Drop raised to 20%. I suck at Boss hunting and vary rarely get anything with the few Bosses i can face and have a good chance of surviving solo. I only Blue Moon Boss hunt, just found one i think i can survive and will be trying to reap benefits so my view may change. But in the past hunting with others, i have only seen a ridiculously few drops compared to how many hunts i have been apart of over the years. How many different items are in the Epic loot bin drop? Chances are if with 5% you do get a drop, it won't be anything the Toon will actually need. Then you have to hope and dice it out with your companions for the epic loot. Seems now if you have DC's you can pretty much get some even better items then epic loot drops if you make a request through the Djinn.

As far as farm hunting for gold, it's good where it's at. I can spend a week, doing nothing but grinding and easily get Five million coin. I usually do that and save up to buy Epics in forum auctions or sales. But it gets boring really quick.

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SkyfallingHaven
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 4:17 AM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
The poor still won't get a chance because they still will not enjoy hunting if they do not like hunting. And hence still won't do it. You can get a lot of gold already with very little effort, trust me. On RP builds too and alone too. Without blowing tremendous amounts for potions aswell.

As was also confirmed above already by a lot of people!

My opinion, anyways. I will bow out for now and let the other DM and Devs hopefully mention theirs too.




I am honestly not sure what to say with this, so going to break it down a little. The poor, will likely get more with the 10% versus 5% as it will lead to a small increase in drop rate which will only tip the scale a tiny amount. It is not like this is a full blown stock market. If they choose to hunt or not, well that is sort of their choice. As it stands, there is not a lot of motive to hunt because you loose more then you gain (on Average). But like I said, we don't know if they will do it or not. Still not sure we can speak for all, some poor people really want to hunt to gain more yet lack the boost to do so. Unless with they lean on friends that are willing to share what little does drop.

As for the rp builds hunting, sure if you go to low level area's. This does not really solve the issue of drop rate being low, it is literally turning it into just a hack and slasher game to get a buck. I think on a general sense most people don't wish that on a productive role play game. After all, it is a rp server and hunting low level area's while high level is kind of repetitive and in all honesty boring. Let alone you take away from actual people leveling, as your sort of occupying their training ground repeatedly.

In regards to a lot of people, I would say it is quite split. The fact that the loot bin gets questioned kind of says a lot, even you run your shop as a Djinn for a money sink and a way to get items. Which is great, but with the epic drop rate so low your shop is pretty much the only decent way to get gear that is even half balanced to builds. It is a great thing your doing with your shop, don't get me wrong. But as per hunting and drop rates it is considerably low for this game, we are literally one of the only servers with such a low rate. But as I said, the balance will not tip that much at all. If anything there may be actually people wanting to trade, wanting to go out and hunt a bit more because of a bigger chance. I know I would, I love hunting on games and gathering things. I used to continuously run shops repeatedly on Amia with Izariel and gave away more free stuff then I can count for. Then would use the gold, if any to put into donation boxes. But now, for some reason the loot system seems a bit less. I remember getting a lot more in the past and a lot more people gaining a fair bit.

Which takes people back to the joys of that feeling of accomplishment. Actually getting a piece of loot you are proud of. The 10% will give you a bit more chance, for not only that feeling but for others to gain access to it. As people will trade more when things drop more, players will run markets and people will find it easier to gear. Thus bringing not only role play to the table, but a small change in the economy of the game that would be a positive boost. With faction area's in play this would be the perfect time for it and it would indeed inspire others to take initiative. So I highly am for the loot bin increasing and perhaps a overhaul of some loot and balance. But, I am just a player so all I can do is voice this and see where it goes. The choice is definitely in others hands. Just I would highly suggest thinking outside of the box.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 5:15 AM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
My main issue is if we _would_ do this the result would be:

- those already hunting a lot would get even richer
- those who do not hunt a lot because not the best hunting build would still stay mostly poor because they doubtfully would hunt more because of this.


The real fix, imho, would be fixing the level 0 - 2 lootbin on A, which is awful. B has the old 0 - 2 lootbin, hence why hunting there is much more gold efficient on lower levels.


Eh, don't buy this argument simply because you're basically saying "we must balance the game to the high-end outlier... rather than the baseline "average," also, not doing anything to help those on the lesser end." That's not a great answer, there will always be those who are on the high-end, but you shouldn't balance the entire game around them, you should rather want to help the guy who wants to hunt dem minotaurs, but can't afford to because the potions they need to do it cost too much. So they sit around in Ne'sek alone, just hoping and praying some group is going to show up and want to group them to carry their butts through. We shouldn't want that.

Screwing around with the loot drop of goblins on A... would not do anything for these people. Personally, I'd simply drop the cost of potions.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 6:00 AM 

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How about a middle ground?

Increase gold gained on kills based on a downwards sine curve. The more gold you already have, the less of a bonus you get per kill.

125% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 10,000
93% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 25,000
78% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 50,000
65% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 75,000
53% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 100,000
42% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 125,000
32% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 200,000
24% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 250,000
17% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 300,000
11% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 400,000
7% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 500,000
0% extra gold per kill with Gold > 500,000

Values here are just to give you an idea, but the thing would mean that the less gold you have, the more consistent gold you get, loot drop or not.
By changing this instead of loot drop values it means you're less reliant on rolls or RNG and it won't upset the server's overall loot/gold balance. This way people who are low on cash should be able to build up enough for some consumables(potions, kits etc), cart, boat and such things, which I think was the whole gold per kill system's intended purpose anyway.. This is a system that doesn't punish people who hunt often, but instead gives some extra help to people who rarely do for whatever reason or might struggle with farming. Values can be tweaked to try and find a good balance and by making it a percentage it also means that it will scale up or down based on how much gold you actually get for a kill, so it will work both at level 30 and at a level 3 hunting. (And will actually help people get some basic gear faster when hunting, so it should be easier to hunt at lower levels when you are without levelling buddies.) And it piggybacks on a system that's already in place.

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SkyfallingHaven
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 7:30 AM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
How about a middle ground?

Increase gold gained on kills based on a downwards sine curve. The more gold you already have, the less of a bonus you get per kill.

125% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 10,000
93% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 25,000
78% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 50,000
65% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 75,000
53% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 100,000
42% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 125,000
32% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 200,000
24% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 250,000
17% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 300,000
11% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 400,000
7% extra gold per kill with Gold =< 500,000
0% extra gold per kill with Gold > 500,000

Values here are just to give you an idea, but the thing would mean that the less gold you have, the more consistent gold you get, loot drop or not.
By changing this instead of loot drop values it means you're less reliant on rolls or RNG and it won't upset the server's overall loot/gold balance. This way people who are low on cash should be able to build up enough for some consumables(potions, kits etc), cart, boat and such things, which I think was the whole gold per kill system's intended purpose anyway.. This is a system that doesn't punish people who hunt often, but instead gives some extra help to people who rarely do for whatever reason or might struggle with farming. Values can be tweaked to try and find a good balance and by making it a percentage it also means that it will scale up or down based on how much gold you actually get for a kill, so it will work both at level 30 and at a level 3 hunting. (And will actually help people get some basic gear faster when hunting, so it should be easier to hunt at lower levels when you are without levelling buddies.) And it piggybacks on a system that's already in place.



That is actually a really good idea, I know a few servers that did just this in the past. It helps to really keep a balance, and yet is rewarding at the same time. Honestly pretty good on numbers there, nice one Grave. :D

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 17 2017, 23:56 PM 

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SkyfallingHaven wrote:
That is actually a really good idea, I know a few servers that did just this in the past. It helps to really keep a balance, and yet is rewarding at the same time. Honestly pretty good on numbers there, nice one Grave. :D


Honestly, no. I don't really agree with that. You're punishing people for being successful, which is not something to ever be done. Everyone should be treated equal and impartial by the system. We aren't trying to "balance" everyone's gold to be "more equal." (Ugh.) The problem we're addressing is that for a baseline, yardstick build of say "fighter/weapon master/rogue" to operate solo or in small groups that might be missing a proper buffer, it has to guzzle potions galore throughout the session. When such a rather typical character "settles up" at the end of the day and sells what he's looted and gets his share of loose gold from the party looter, he ends up either making no money or more typically - in the hole, worse off than he started. All simply because all the potions he guzzled to remain playable cost all his coin that he otherwise would have gained. Meanwhile, Mr. Gish or Miss Mage spent nothing. Every item looted for them is a net gain.

I will agree that the amount of gold monsters drop (particularly towards the endgame) is outright way too small. Particularly endgame where things like spawns of yeti, giants and demons are altogether trivial and could be upped a bit in general. But imo the best "fix" is simply lowering the cost of potions and consumables, which is far too high. This would fix the problem in a targeted way, outright, without affecting other systems in a negative way.

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Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 10:54 AM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

The problem is, you do need to balance around the highest outlier. Let's say we make open up dev crit to old standarfd again. Most build won't have too big of a problem. It is a 5% on a 5% chance. But that one dual-Kukri-dev-BG-RDD will be the highest outlier, and be way too strong.

If the game isn't balanced to have the highest outlier in mind, it breaks. Also, I've seen quite a few cases where gold trumped epic loot. Back when Djinn did auctions, for example. Or if I went to any auction in the auction subforum and offered 20 mil. (exception might be tome of mystra, but not sure what price that goes on now)

Also, a script like that could, and would be abused. I could sinply go to 500k and either give the gold to a faction I'm in, or somebody opens up a 'bank' PC, who charges a bit for taking the money and paying attention to it. The server already hugely favors not having too much gold on hand, and that would only be amplified by a script like that.


 
      
walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 12:32 PM 

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Location: Lincolnshire, United Kingdom

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Minotaurs. Stingers. basically all of Khem.

Night or daytime does not matter either.

Most characters should be able to handle yuan-ti too even if they have a semi-great build. Same with Brog orcs. Brog barbarians.

All those are around lvl 20 and a poorly made lvl 30 can still handle that.


If you have a non power but at least semi-decent build, you should still be able to handle fire giants, if you slap on a bit of fire resist, a mindblank and a bubbly.


Thanks for the suggestion. Minos were easy, certainly easier than I remember but I guess 10 levels on a char can make that difference. Between them and the areas outside the exit, snakes beetles etc I got about 110k but that total doesn't include the deduction for arrows, weapons essences and potions consumed. Not bad really but the drop rate seemed certainly higher than when I run beastmen which is curious.

As for stingers... yeah right, not sure what spells they spammed besides chain lightning but my badger died the minute we entered the area and never made it out the first room... think I only killed two as well. My build isn't great but it isn't that bad either so I'm not sure how a level 20 survives there! Physical damage aside I'd need alot of resistance to that lightning which I just don't have right now.

Thank you, I will keep at it though to find what fits. :mrgreen:

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rafaelmacgyver
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 13:58 PM 

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Make Appraise give +5% extra gold from sells and buys over the actual max value it gives.

Make the gold on kills be a tiny bit more... Maybe something small but without noticing, It could make some difference like +10 to +50 GP on kills over the actual values.

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DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 18:46 PM 

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I'm not going to claim any economical mastery or knowledge but hear me out. Trying to manage an endless economy where money is created every day, without restrictions towards the total sum in the marketplace is by principle impossible. Once the system producing that money (Amia's current gold economy) is in use, it can’t be changed because people have come to rely upon its foundation.

Take for example the maximum sell rates for npc merchants, the highest being 30000 with the most common being 25000. If this value was drastically lower (say 400gp) from the beginning, you'd see less inflation being generated from the player base for item transactions, with player interaction becoming a requirement for pawning acquired goods. This I believe would result in fewer of the transactions that contribute towards the inflation seen today. Now this isn't a perfect solution either, obvious staffing requirements, no accounting for volume over quality and the base item prices present in NWN are typically exorbitant to begin with.

That last point about base items prices is important, as it's an avenue for possible regulation. If npc prices exhibited player demand then you would no longer see a grind for junk (items with no intrinsic player value) that currently turn into expensive items (items actually in demand). This junk gold inflates the market even further:

Grinder collects 1 million gold through junk.
Seller trades valued item for 1 million gold to the Grinder.
Grinder now has a valued item.
Seller now has 1 million gold to purchase a valued item.
Seller realises that no new valued items were added to the market through this transaction, left with 1 million gold and nothing to exchange that with.

Grinder finds valued item and 1 million gold through junk.
Seller trades 1 million gold for this valued item.
Grinder now has 2 million gold to purchase a valued item.
Grinder realises that 1 new valued item was added to the market through this transaction, left with 2 million gold and only one item to exchange that with.
Valued items have exponentially increased in price due to the new market density (gold ratio to item ratio).

This however introduces a new problem if junk gold is regulated, how does the Grinder find the same gold used in the initial transaction? If the only way to acquire valued items is through other valued items, then you start to see a similar flaw arise when both players value the same item over another. This goes all the way back to what I mentioned earlier, "no accounting for volume over quality". Valued items are still collected without limits just like junk gold, so the new junk gold is 'junk' valued items (items that have an objective value, but not for the majority of players). This only serves to further limit the accessibility to valued items further than what we already have!

The answer is not going to be found by manipulating variables such as adding zeros or reducing zeros, but somehow scaling the economy around player demand so perfectly that everything is a 1:1 trade. An impossible feat when the quantity of items inevitably grows without limit (the result being a higher bar for entry each day, a minimum value required to enter the marketplace with a meaningful transaction).

Does it need change? Maybe.
Will increasing drop chances fix the economy? No, such will devalue gold even further.

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SkyfallingHaven
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 20:00 PM 

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As said before, gold has little value already. Why? Because things are quite expensive all around, the ratio to gain is small and the chance at finding something useful is extremely low. The 5% increase will not degrade gold that much, in fact if anything it puts more gold into play as people lack it on the average character. Unless they grind low level area's to gain a abundance of it. There is one reason this method bothers me greatly, as in my opinion grinding seems more out of character then anything else.

Why? Because in the setting we have is it realistic to see one person, or even a group of five to six go out and kill (slaughter/ Genocide) massive groups of monsters for personal gain over and over. Think on the alignment system, the class system, the characters themselves? Sure some of these creatures are classified as monsters, others are not. Yet due to the need to grind and massive slaughter to gain a profit to survive or gear out we do so. This means paladins, druids all those good aligned literally butcher creatures for personal gain.

I've always had a issue with this, but I think by increasing it this would lesson that number even by a small ratio. It is a game, we will fight and hunt regularly but it wont effect the market greatly. Ten percent from one hundred percent is still a low ratio on average, even for epic items. That and those who gain a ton of gold still feel the sting, for example when they die with all that gold and no bank system in place.

It seems the easiest and quickest way to implement a change without messing with to much else. If anything people gain a little more, items desired get found, and the loss is very little compared to the gain. Still I believe this is overall the best method with the least amount of work and the greatest amount of outcome with a small ratio change.

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