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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 07 2017, 17:30 PM 

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Okay, this is just an idea that I saw work well on another server. It may or may not be good here, just thought I would suggest it.

Essentially, there would be 2 types of DM's, and a Lead DM.

The lead or head DM position is really there just to break ties in voting and to be an organizer of sorts for the team, not really king or queen of the DM team. They just help keep things organized.

Senior DM: These DM's interact with the community in game. They do events, write the plots and stories, and things of that ilk.

Administrative DM: These DM's don't do ingame stories, they are the ones that are there to help with rebuilds, giving requested items, and all the million other day to day things that DM's do.

Reasoning?

Well, we only have so many DM's. Adding a few Admin DM's won't change lore, won't affect plots, or anything critical, but it does free up Senior DM's to do what the players need most. Plots, stories and interactions.

OF course, it would be expected that an Admin DM would work their way up to Senior DM in time, only to be replaced by a new Admin. And, as a suggestion, all DM's can vote on requests and such.

Again, just something I saw on another server and it worked really really well. It streamlined things and keps plots and events moving regardless of rebuilds, requests and other things.

Thanks for reading.

-TG


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 8:48 AM 

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DMs who don't actually DM are not DMs and should not be referred to as such and do not deserve the respect as such.

"Senior" DM implies a level of importance that doesn't exist, and shouldn't exist.

I am strongly of the opinion that these divisions do not and have never needed to occur. Head DMs were a thing at one point, and again, something I always very strongly disagreed with. The team should be able to work amicably without someone actually ranking above them cracking the whip. You do not need a dedicated 'leader' to organize, you need a motivated DM team who will actually perform their responsibilities. A head DM will not solve the motivation problem, they will simply be screaming themselves hoarse, because unmotivated DMs will not perform their responsibilities, be they actually DMing, or doing rebuilds.

If you are a DM, you should be able to perform the function that those two letters imply - if you're only up there to do rebuilds and hand out items, you don't deserve the position, to be frank.

DMs who have, in the past, considered themselves "administrative DMs" often found themselves on the short end of the stick for getting anything done because of the above reasons: Internally and externally, people who regard themselves as "administrative DMs" simply weren't respected, because when it came down to it, they really weren't doing anything but posting on the forum while the rest of the DM team was trying to get things done and actually progress the server.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 10:39 AM 

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Even though you disagree with That Guys use of terminology that doesn't mean Amia can't gain from differentiating between administrative and storytelling DM's.

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Yimmi
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 13:07 PM 

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Actually I find it a pretty good idea. With people focused on request could lead to the DM team more focused on storytelling using their time to advance on plots or do stuff IG.
If the problem is about people in charge of request being call DM, and not doing storytelling or other stuff the actual DM do, lets call them with other name.
I think if we have people that only do administrative stuff it could help to make request things more expeditious, like their whole focus would me to discuss request and maybe implement them, that way the DM team can focus on lore thing, events and plots, and it could also help by answering the request faster!
Maybe about the head or lead DM is something I don't like, but it could be different, like a position that rotates from time to time within the DM team, so it's not something like a "seat of power" so it doesn't get the feeling that one person has power above the rest all the time.

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LordAzack
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 13:31 PM 

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Tormak is right 100%

As a DM on amia you are held to a high standard. To me that means being able to do it all... Quests, Leto, all the fun stuff.

DM team gets mad respect from me because of what they do.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 13:41 PM 

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Then call them administrators not DM's. the name isn't important. Its the idea of getting more people involved so things get done efficiently. And, with respect Tormak, lead or head was only there to organize, not yell and scream.


 
      
LordAzack
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 13:46 PM 

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More people involved should rather mean more full fledged DM's. That way it's nother just a guy to do requests but a full on DM who can do so much more. You also have to consider player base versus DM... You want a good ratio there.


In conclusion... Another DM shoukd solve whatever issue this stems from. An administrator will not.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 13:53 PM 



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What I personally dislike about the current system, and that could easily happen with your suggestion as well, is the double-ranking, and the way it is, in my experience, not handled too well. No offense to Sheeler and Mav, I love their work as devs, but as DMs, they haven't done anything I've noticed in a few years. And it seems weird to me that they are still considered active DMs, even though are, as dar as I've experienced, exactly not active DMs. They are Administrative Developers who happened to be DMs before turning Adm.Devs. I think some diversification of the jobs might be good, as long as it doesn't lead to more weird double-ranks.

To LordAzack, well, more people that even just do part of a job mean more work being done. If we had one guy that just did requests, along with the current team, it would mean one more person looking over requests, so less people in total that would need to look at requests. Let's imagine we outsourced pricing and balance to a few 'normal people', it would mean DMs just need to check to RP for the item, and the balancing would be done by a different group.
And, DMing in total is a rather large job. I could imagine more people would be willing to try some of it, rather than having to go all or nothing.


 
      
LordAzack
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 14:17 PM 

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I would rather hire one highly qualified individual who can do it all than to hire several sub-par workers who can only work on one aspect of my project.


Honestly though... This can all be solved... Whatever it is that needs to be solved.. With stellar additions to the DM team. Why hire several people to do the job of one when you can just hire that one?

Amia has had a massive DM team in the past.... All great people. With the massive player base that we had it was feasible. We have a much smaller player base now... We dont need a ton of DM's truth be told. From what I have seen and I could be very wrong here, we have 4 very active DM's. The DM to Player ratio is actually pretty spot on... Maybe one more DM, perhaps two.


I will also point you to this rather nice sticky....


!!! ATTENTION ALL CREATIVE MINDS (ALL OF Y'ALL) !!!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=85894

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 14:29 PM 



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Well, you're saying it can be solved by getting DMs, when, in actuality, the problem is that:
1. We burn through DMs really fast, partially due to the load that DMing is,
2. We don't get many new DMs that last.

So just saying 'we solve the problems by getting DMs doesn't work'. It's like if you're starving in the desert, saying 'all we need to survive is to find water'. It's true, but it won't get us any water.

If we can't have any/many high quality workers, we got to make due with what we have. It's just like with the devs. Who on the team can script? Not all of them, for sure. Should we just get new devs that can script, design areas, everything, or do we work as a team, and split the effort. High quality work is not easy to get since you won't get any reward for it. How much does a designer for a new game get? And how much does a designer on here get?


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 14:31 PM 

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I suppose I was simply trying to suggest changes that could help bring more to the DM team. Either by way of mentoring what I referred to as Admin DM's or by splitting the workload so the Storytellers that currently do EVERYTHING can do what the playerbase needs most.

I also prefer a communication method that encourages exploration of the topic rather than just bluntly saying things won't work. Obviously some think they will.

The structure I presented exists in nearly EVERY organization in the world, at it's most basic: leader, worker, trainee. Even our very own factions IC have this structure, to blatantly say it won't work to me is a bit misleading. Perhaps there is some history we don't know about on this side of the veil that prevented it in the past, I don't know.

If nothing else, I suggest we hire more DM's. We lose them as fast as they are recruited. I noticed this, and thought about why... I would think in part it must be to the huge amount of work it takes to be a DM. They have to do EVERYTHING and that can get to be a bit much, especially since most of us have lives too, we're not all kids anymore. My breakdowns literally broke up the workload and gave it to different people, making lighter work for everyone.

As for not needing leadership? I wholeheartedly disagree. Every group needs a leader, even if the sole job of that leader is to say, "Hey, here's what we need done, take the job you want to do, or can do.", or whatever. Having no leader means there is no organization, no structure, and no one is responsible for anything because there's no one to say otherwise. Some may disagree with me, and I'm sure one will, but, having a leader is so important, even if they are literally just a listmaker of tasks.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I'm simply trying to help. Take it as you will.


 
      
LordAzack
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 14:41 PM 

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That Guy wrote:

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I'm simply trying to help. Take it as you will.




No one thinks you are trying to be difficult.... I mean I agree with alot of the points that you make. I always look at both sides though so be advised.

But yes.. Hire more DM's Just not too many that they are like chickens running around the coop.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 14:46 PM 

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That is the exact problem. We can't seem to get DM's anymore. They quit within a month.

Thus, I suggested splitting up the workload, making a sort of "trainee DM" that can do a lot of the day to day stuff freeing up the other DM's from that, so we have storytelling still happening and less burnout.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 17:37 PM 

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DMs don't burn out because they have to do rebuilds and deliver DC items, let me clear that up for you.

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Perhaps there is some history we don't know about on this side of the veil that prevented it in the past, I don't know.


Yes. There is. I gave you some of it.

Remember you're also dealing with an entire server of volunteers who are not held accountable for the most part to anything but themselves, whose best defense is "I'm a volunteer." No one is being 'paid' for this, save in DCs.

Quote:
As for not needing leadership? I wholeheartedly disagree. Every group needs a leader, even if the sole job of that leader is to say, "Hey, here's what we need done, take the job you want to do, or can do.", or whatever. Having no leader means there is no organization, no structure, and no one is responsible for anything because there's no one to say otherwise. Some may disagree with me, and I'm sure one will, but, having a leader is so important, even if they are literally just a listmaker of tasks.


You don't need a leader. Past years on Amia have shown this time and again. Leaders are not effective because the structure doesn't support what a leader needs to function. No one needs a whip cracking taskmaster. The job of DM is incredibly self driven and self motivated. A person laying out a list of tasks does not matter if the team you have won't perform them because they don't want to or ebcause they're spending 70 hours playerside and then saying they're too busy. No leadership will magically fix that.

You don't need to split up DM tasks because frankly there is not a lot to be done up there, when people are self motivated and getting things done. You need to keep yourself busy a lot of the time, especially now past 2013 where the population is a quarter or less of what it used to be. Delivering DC items, doing rebuilds, and the like, is not what is burning people out or causing them to leave. By and large it is the OOC drama and the frustration of dealing with people who sometimes do not seem like they have a firm grasp on reality, let alone a reasonable interpretation of the situation in a videogame on the internet.

Hiring DMs is not quite so simple as you make it out to be. DMing is effectively tenure. There is no simply laid out protocol for removing a DM once they're up there, and once you doget someone up there, the potential for damage becomes immediate and widespread. You can't just throw people up there willy nilly. Being popular is not enough to make you a DM, and certainly not enough to make you a good DM. This means you need to be selective with who you bring up there, because once people are up there, removing problems becomes incredibly difficult, if not near impossible, even after they are readily identified.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 17:50 PM 

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To LordAzack, well, more people that even just do part of a job mean more work being done. If we had one guy that just did requests, along with the current team, it would mean one more person looking over requests, so less people in total that would need to look at requests. Let's imagine we outsourced pricing and balance to a few 'normal people', it would mean DMs just need to check to RP for the item, and the balancing would be done by a different group.


This is essentially how it has always worked internally anyways. Most of the team looks to a solid core of internal balance and mechanics experts, and if they agree on how the item works, most of the rest of the team falls in line. Over the year,s that role has been filled (successfully or otherwise depending on your opinions of the situation) by Suney, myself, Ruce, Brainsplitter, MoshingChris, Amarice, Kjetta, Rigela, Tarnus, Nihilus, and others that I'm sure I'm forgetting. But generally there is the core of people considered experts, whose opinion is deferred to. The defference or acceptance isn't explicit, or laid out, it's just sort of how it works.

Much of the DM team has worked like that over the years. Some things are codified, but for the most part, things were and are pretty informal in terms of their organization - people naturally clistered and worked together normally in pairs or trios to get things done. When your team is self motivated, this is a great way to accomplish a lot of things because your small teams will naturally see a lot of crossover and working together as they accomplish what they're going about doing, without formal leadership or whip cracking.

If your team is not motivated, you collapse into the opposite: Your motivated people take on more and more so that the ship doesn't sink, and the non-motivated people see this as the ability to do even less, without being held accountable for their actions. Soon a core of 3-5 are doing the work of 15, and you're cutting the candle in half and burning it at all four ends.

What Amia has now is a DM team that has largely cut down the fat.

ED: I feel like I should clarify that this isn't meant as a scathing criticism of the DM team or a voice of lauding approval but rather just an explanation of how things work and have worked from someone who has seen Amia from every angle possible at this point except the person who owns the box.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 08 2017, 17:58 PM 

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Finally:

Quote:
That is the exact problem. We can't seem to get DM's anymore. They quit within a month.


For what it's worth, this has always happened over the years. Sometimes you get people up there and they simply don't feel comfortable in the position, or they have a RL change that means they no longer have the time to contribute. Those people should never be looked at in a negative light - they put themselves out there and knew their limitations enough to know when to step away, rather than becoming a nebulous voice in the sky.

Despite the interviews and the descriptions, especially back in the older year,s you really don't know how it is to DM for 65-75 people at once vs. a table of 4 until you have to get up there and handle the tools. Some people weren't comfortable with it once they did get up there, so they dropped out. They always had the team's support in things like this, because it's never the idea to throw someone into the deep end and then say "good luck." You don't want people up there who feel like they can't do the job but also now can't stop doing it.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 12:18 PM 

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We have tried something similar in the past with Forum Moderators for example, which did not go too well. Understandably. The forum work is one of the most tendious, and to only have that without any of the more "nicer" jobs quickly looses appeal.

The issue with having "sub DMs" that just fulfill requests is that such a person needs full client access. They get access to the client, to all tools and to upload items into the game. If I do not feel I can trust a person to run a plot, then it is unlikely I would trust them to get access to everything client side and to handle the playerbase in that regard.

This would also lead to the same issue as the forum moderator.... just handling the tedious work will burn people out and make them loose interest in no time at all.

Let's say you have an office job. There are some things that are fun and there are some things that are just tedious repetitives. It is hard to keep people on the job already with them having to do a bit of fun and a bit of tedious. It is almost impossible if you tell someone "ok now sit in that corner and staple paper for the next 5 weeks".

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 13:09 PM 

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Ama, that makes sense. That said, we need more DM's.


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 13:13 PM 

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We are aware, sadly not quite so easy as it would seem. :(

It feels like every time we take in someone, someone also leaves.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 13:16 PM 

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I know, sorry, didn't mean to make light of it. That was the impetus for my idea at all, to give an easier path to DMing. However, having full access and not full rights and reaponsibilities? I get it.


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 13:20 PM 

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Trust me we do keep looking and also take in new DM when we can!

But I know more DM would be better, for everyone involved.

TBH the request stuff isn't even the biggest issue when it comes to "time eating". It's the forums, really.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 13:39 PM 



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Well, I can understand that. There is one thing where I've always been a bit unsure whether to suggest this... (I'd be willing to do this, though my track record is the main reason why I'm unsure whether this would work)

Essentially, it's a forum moderator, but with a different 'moderation aspect' than DMs would have. Organization. I think we can all agree there are a few things that the forum could use with cleaning up. Managing the sidebar (like the modified spells, deities, though that is a different type of work, where I wouldn't know how), cleaning up old faction things (with talks to said factions, but I can think of a few things, things referencing talking to Murkoph for the Living Guard, stickies and stuff), compiling a few lists, like maybe some rulings compiled to a sticky in GenDis or something. Basically like what davis did with the Fishing thread.

Essentially a Forum Moderator, but without the 'removing spam'n'shit'-aspect. It would seem like that might make it easier to find people that might be suitable to do it...

(Not sure how much it'd work though)


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 09 2017, 13:59 PM 

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That's essentially the forum moderator job we once had. Technically still have.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 14 2017, 12:14 PM 

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Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps there is some history we don't know about on this side of the veil that prevented it in the past, I don't know.


Yes. There is. I gave you some of it.

Remember you're also dealing with an entire server of volunteers who are not held accountable for the most part to anything but themselves, whose best defense is "I'm a volunteer." No one is being 'paid' for this, save in DCs.


Maybe the time has come for more transparency from the DM team? From the get go I always thought it made sense that the DM kept most things hidden as they were storytellers, so in my earlier years I just accepted it. After time however I feel like Amia could have gained from a more transparent DM team, as every time something scandalous happened it was always shrouded in mystery for the people that wasn't directly involved in it. What we were left with were mostly rumors and gossip and a lot of toxic opinions, and what made matters worse was that we never could talk about it in forums so it was left out to IG tells or skype. Before I would buy in on a lot of the gossip myself, as I would often feel left out (I have realized that's mostly because of my timezone, and other rl reasons).

But, to go back to the main topic, I understand your reservations for giving someone the DM tools, people can do a lot of harm with them. However, I think that at this point the players that are left, are the players that want Amia to succeed, and I don't think anyone playing will do something harmful to the server on purpose.

I feel that at this point we should start approaching Amia as a sandbox, one that the people that have sticked around can enjoy and have fun with.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 14 2017, 19:38 PM 

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Shadowfiend wrote:
However, I think that at this point the players that are left, are the players that want Amia to succeed, and I don't think anyone playing will do something harmful to the server on purpose.


Sadly wrong, as has been several time in the past. And while you want names, no I will not give you any. I will however enlighten you with some examples of what can be done and has already happened

- Benefitting own characters and friends characters with epic loot and gold and DC.
- Paying players DC for cybering with them
- Destroying/attacking PCs or factions DM side who were opposing own PC or just not liked by them. Or simply using DM info to screw them over.
- Blackmailing and haressment (threatening with bans, falls or other sanctions that are within DM powers)
- Spread false information about what the team said about requests/players/things that were presumably decided and weren't

To only mention a few. So yes you can do a lot of bad stuff with the position, so yes we are being at least as picky as we need to be with applications, especially from players who already have a history of bans, complaints of other players and rulebreaks.

And even that cannot fully protect from people abusing a position, but it is our duty to at least do our very best to minimize it.

And those were all people who were playing amia for a long time.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 14 2017, 19:42 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Shadowfiend wrote:
However, I think that at this point the players that are left, are the players that want Amia to succeed, and I don't think anyone playing will do something harmful to the server on purpose.


Sadly wrong, as has been several time in the past. And while you want names, no I will not give you any. I will however enlighten you with some examples of what can be done and has already happened

- Benefitting own characters and friends characters with epic loot and gold and DC.
- Paying players DC for cybering with them
- Destroying/attacking PCs or factions DM side who were opposing own PC or just not liked by them. Or simply using DM info to screw them over.
- Blackmailing and haressment (threatening with bans, falls or other sanctions that are within DM powers)
- Spread false information about what the team said about requests/players/things that were presumably decided and weren't

To only mention a few. So yes you can do a lot of bad stuff with the position, so yes we are being at least as picky as we need to be with applications, especially from players who already have a history of bans, complaints of other players and rulebreaks.

And even that cannot fully protect from people abusing a position, but it is our duty to at least do our very best to minimize it.

And those were all people who were playing amia for a long time.


I had no idea. Well, I get why now. No names needed, people can be so awful, and I just don't get why.

Can lock this if you want to guys.


 
      
Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 14 2017, 23:27 PM 

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I mean, fair enough for the most part, but I still feel like the community could benefit from more transparency from the DM team. Not everything is everyone's business, but I think the DM-team's reticene hurts more than it helps as it breeds confusion and suspicion.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 15 2017, 6:50 AM 

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Elaborate what you want more transparency on?

Few things are acre actually a super secret.

We do not openly post about bans normally, because we do not want to drag other people through the mud, unless they are permanently banned and on top we believe they truly are a danger to our playerbase so they need to be warned.

There is no gain for the community here but sensation greed and only bad for the one who already got punished, because on top of that everyone will of every mistake someone made.

I suppose permabans are a little less drastic on the later parts, but even with permabans people can eventually (if they start to see what they did there) ask for an appeal.

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The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 20 2017, 18:10 PM 



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What are the duties of a dm?

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 20 2017, 18:45 PM 

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The Little Dragon wrote:
What are the duties of a dm?


- Forum Moderation
- Request reading and answering
- Behavior problems (In game and out)
- Giving DCs in game, this goes alongside watching people RP.
- Events, plots, offering player support
- Communicating with the Dev team about what needs to change
- Decision making as far as changes, etc go for the server
- Sometimes even Dev stuff directly

The list really keeps going. It really is an almost impossible task to do it all.

While there are some things that are usually required such as addressing requests, and putting some time in game to at least hand out DCs. DMs tend to focus in on certain things while still being available for the others when called.

I have shifted almost entirely doing Dev stuff alongside Sheeler because we were, and still are in many respects, lacking the numbers in that department. I am still around if Amarice or another DM calls me for support with a plot though. Sune is a prime example of someone who is really not present in game or on the forums much anymore but if we scream he comes running, and he is a wizard with a lot of the server stuff. Sune is critical for this server, even if no one but the DM team interacts with him.

The DM level ranking idea really isn't appropriate as many have already addressed here. We are all self motivated volunteers huddled together trying to do our best to get as much done, while still having to work and live our normal lives. The fact that we aren't super restricted by levels or titles is one of the few reasons, imo, that we stop from burning out. If a DM is exhausted from constantly running plots, for example, they can shift their focus to one of the many other things we really need help with while they 'recharge'.

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