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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 27 2017, 8:27 AM 

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I recently got 5th level of Master Scout, which has opened up the crafting of the improved trap components. It's absolutely a great addition to the standard trap system and provides so much more depth (IC and OOC) for a dedicated trapper, so great work to those involved in coming up with it. For the most part, any traditional trapper who sets up a trap area ahead of an encounter will have no problem going through the trap tools menu and upgrading their traps with the master scout component.

However, I like to think that I do not play a traditional trapper. As a Dwarven combat engineer/grenadier (No PRC, just a theme comprised of the available classes), I generally approach traps as "satchel charges or delayed ordnance" that are an extension of my grenade weapon arsenal. My traps are placed continuously during an encounter, with enemies manipulated by any party members to be pulled over the newly set trap. If I am alone, I will simply set the trap down during combat whilst deflecting blows (emulated through the use of Skill Mastery, Dwarven Defender + EDR and blast shielding armour) and take the brunt of the punishment caused by the trap (or charge) going off inches away from me (hopefully without dieing). Whilst this method works perfectly for the standard traps, it unfortunately offers no opportunity to use the upgraded traps in the same fashion.

I would like to ask if there is any possibility for Master Scouts to be given a DM granted (on use: unique self) widget that when activated selects and runs the existing script that is activated when the player selects the normal dialogue option to upgrade all traps within a 1m distance. This would allow the Master Scout to apply the upgrade components to the closest trap to them within a normal combat turn sequence without having to firstly be out of combat to access the trap tools dialogue and secondly navigate the trap menu to upgrade the trap. For comparison, this would function in a similar fashion to the method used to upgrade an ammo stack in combat using a magic ammo bag.

Mechanically, the upgraded trap components are currently a very niche addition to the Master Scout, that in my opinion do not get utilized nearly as often as they could or should, simply due to the pace of most parties and the setup required to upgrade a standard trap. The components have a relatively high cost (in comparison to other Master Scout craftables) which further discourages players to make use of them in any large quantity. The addition of the widget would definitely open the doors and encourage a more active and dedicated use of the upgrades. To make the most effective use of the proposed widget would realistically require a minimum of 10 rogue levels for the Skill Mastery bonus feat, for any other attempt at setting a trap in combat would likely fail without the natural 20 (I might even suggest that the widget have some sort of prerequisite such as Skill Mastery as a feat requirement or a minimum of 30 Set Trap or even ESF: Set Trap to avoid potential abuse of the widget from less dedicated trappers).

I'd love to hear what other trappers and the Dev/DM team think about this proposed improvement. If the team feels that it is something that would not fit in the scope for general server use, then I would look to take this change to the request forums for my personal use.

Thanks for reading!

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
Kamina
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 27 2017, 21:38 PM 

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NAUX wrote:
I'd love to hear what other trappers and the Dev/DM team think about this proposed improvement. If the team feels that it is something that would not fit in the scope for general server use, then I would look to take this change to the request forums for my personal use.

Thanks for reading!


Hey Naux!

I've been talking with the other devs/DMs about this and wanted to bring a few bits up.

The issue with this update is it's very niche. A lot of people that have and do play MS as a "Trap Master" role normally do so with using traps to damage the enemy, then ultimately engaging in combat normally. Now, I'm not telling you how to play OOCly, but we have to take in to account of the MS upgrading ability. It is how it is, currently, which is a dialogue box which allows you to upgrade your traps with unique properties, making it far stronger than someone who lays traps without MS levels. The issue is, you can't use the dialogue box in combat.

We can't do anything on this that wouldn't involve a new script being written. I think I speak for a lot of the dev team in that we would not mind it if there was enough demand from players to do so, but the situation you spoke of has several solutions that would not require a lot of scripting work, something we are actively trying to avoid unless the scripting has an effect for all players and, as stated, most players that player trappers seldom use the traps as one of their main weapons, but more so a damage buffer for mobs to fall in to.

Keep in mind if you want to request it, it still needs scripting, and we're currently not scripting any new things.

I'll let you respond and any members of the Dev/DM teams to lend their voice, hope you understand where I'm coming from :)

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unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder
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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 28 2017, 20:34 PM 

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I just made a lengthy reply and forgot to copy the text before clicking Submit. I got a login timeout and.. well.. good bye message. I'll try to rewrite the thing soon, but right now, I just want to throw my computer out of the window :P


Edit: Through the power of a Hex editor, I managed to recover my post text from my browser RAM cache! There may be a few errors I missed as everything was on 1 line without spaces between words...




Thanks for the reply Kamina. I'm not very good at putting my point across so here goes...

Quote:
The issue with this update is it's very niche. A lot of people that have and do play MS as a "Trap Master" role normally do so with using traps to damage the enemy, then ultimately engaging in combat normally. Now, I'm not telling you how to play OOCly, but we have to take in to account of the MS upgrading ability. It is how it is, currently, which is a dialogue box which allows you to upgrade your traps with unique properties, making it far stronger than someone who lays traps without MS levels. The issue is, you can't use the dialogue box in combat.


Whilst I agree that you are correct in that the majority of players use traps as a quick initial source of damage at the start of an encounter and little more than that, I can't help but think that the way people approach the use of traps is a result of a status quo in the playerbase's mentality regarding their use. I think the problem is that players are so used to the way the trap system works, the time it takes to set up traps, the space needed to set up multiple traps in often confined areas (due to stacking being removed), the time taken and inventory space needed to craft them and store them, and Amia's monster hunting pace, means that placing one let alone a couple of traps at the start of an engagement is all that most trappers can afford themselves. I know that you are not telling me how to play OOCly but the suggestion that my method is different to others is an indication of just how trapping is viewed and underutilised by players.

In my opinion players are deterred and are unlikely to continue setting traps throughout combat beyond the opening of the fight for multiple reasons in addition the points above, for example:

- Laziness. It's a hassle to keep placing traps, the fight moves too quickly as mobs die so fast. I have to disarm my trap again if it doesn't get triggered in combat and my party will rush off without me whilst I disarm it.

- Inefficiency. The standard traps do less damage than I could do myself in a round of combat. Why bother using them after my initial couple of traps in the opener of the fight, doing so would simply be a loss of DPS and the mobs will probably make the Reflex save anyway.

- Build limitations. I haven't got the skill level to place the traps during combat and I'm certainly not going to equip all the items I need to meet the Set Trap DC just to put down a trap or two or spend my mythal power on adding the Set Trap skill point s to my items so that I meet the passive requirements. I only took the Set Trap skill to be able to use traps on a rare basis to look cool and meet my RP needs as a trapper.

These are just some of the points that I feel have contributed to the status quo that is the "place trap before boss or mob pull and then don't touch them again during the fight" mentality. I don't feel that this mentality should be used as the basis regarding trap use in general. I feel that improvements should welcomed to break the norm and have more people, especially trappers trapping more actively in general - because the commitment to being a trapper should be a mechanical one as well as an RP one.

Now with that said, speaking to traps in general, I 'll touch on Master Scout. I personally feel that Master Scout requires a huge investment from players, requiring two feats and 7 skills whilst offering relatively little in return, especially in comparison with Knight Commander which it most closely matches to in terms of requirements. The Improved Traps are pretty much the only strength offered by the class in the long run (the Kaleidoscope grenade only takes you so far and many would opt for a BoT flame weapon instead of the essences) and as it is not being able to upgrade a trap before placing them already limits the use of the upgraded traps for the reasons I've mentioned with trapping in general. If a player is going to commit to the 5 levels of MS to obtain the improved traps they deserve to make the most of the advantage that the improved traps have over the standard traps and have the opportunity to make the most of them. The dialogue presents just another bottle neck in the trapping process and limits a less dedicated trapper from using them even further.

Even if a dedicated trapper who had the opportunity to place traps in combat and managed to use them effectively (opting to use traps as a primary weapon) would be looking at upgrade material costs of several hundred thousand gold for a standard run through a dungeon. In addition to the other hindrances with trap placement incurring this sort of cost to just play their role is some thing no one else besides a dedicated trapper in the true sense of RP and mechanics would ever do.

By allowing a Master Scout to upgrade all traps within a 1 meter radius (this is usually a single trap and in best case scenarios three) outside of the dialogue, you open a door to what is currently very rare unseen gameplay to a lot more players. People might actually consider taking a pause in their usual 4 to 6 attacks per round combat. Trap usage in combat or the slim openings out side of combat will increase for those that have made the mechanical commitments to playing Master Scouts as a trapper, the classes core strength if given the opportunity.
Quote:
We can't do anything on this that wouldn't involve a new script being written. I think I speak for a lot of the dev team in that we would not mind it if there was enough demand from players to do so, but the situation you spoke of has several solutions that would not require a lot of scripting work, something we are actively trying to avoid unless the scripting has an effect for all players and, as stated, most players that player trappers seldom use the traps as one of their main weapons, but more so a damage buffer for mobs to fall in to.


It's been many years since I did any NWN scripting but from what I can make out from the recent research in to the work needed (I accept I still remain ignorant to the way scripting is utilised on Amia) much of the work is already done and available in the module. At a basic level you would probably need to add another class or a couple of methods to the OnActivateItem script and call the ExecuteScript class for the 1 meter trap upgrade script that is usually executed when the player selects the dialog option from the trap conversation. Amia's script implementation could be far more advanced than that but from my position of ignorance (which I apologise for, I mean no discredit to the Dev team) I really can't see the work needed to make such a large improvement for Master Scouts in general being too time consuming. I happily volunteer to try and help do the work itself if it were permitted for me to do so. I'd love to hear some of those suggestions you mentioned that would be a sufficient non-scripting work around to the situations I spoke of, I'd definitely give them a shot.

Quote:
Keep in mind if you want to request it, it still needs scripting, and we're currently not scripting any new things.


Again I acknowledge that scripting is disabled for requests but from my viewpoint this would be asking for a few lines of code to simply use what already exists in the module, it would not be a request for new custom scripts like a new Shapeshifting form would be. I'd plead for the Devs to permit such a request :P. Ultimately I would just prefer that anyone and everyone would have access to the widget instead of hoarding what I would consider a basic right for myself.

I would still like to invite other trappers to give their thoughts and experiences using traps and whether they agree with any of the points I raised, especially Master Scouts who have made the commitment to play the class and feel the improved trap systems limitations for themselves.

Thanks again for reading and your consideration!

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
Kamina
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 29 2017, 13:30 PM 

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I'll see what we can do. If it's a simple edit then there should be no problem. If there is spaghetti code, then we might have an issue. Watch this space :)

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"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers
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unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder
when met"


 
      
walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 29 2017, 13:52 PM 

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I have never used traps though i have seen them in use. As a Ranger/Master Scout myself it is one part of the class i do not use though have an interest to. The part that tends to lean me away from using them or learn to use then then rebuilding my character to use them... is that i don't see how it would be any more than a gimmick of the build. Interestingly for me i feel it would be something into which Shana would place some of her skill, being a survivor of encounters and a ranged combatant using traps would probably something she would and should use. As a ranged fighter mostly damage wouldn't likely be her overriding concern, stopping and preventing movement of enemies comes into greater effect.
My animal companion is one way during solo encounters this tends to happen, other ways are my limited use of her entangle spell or the grenades she crafts thanks to her Master Scout levels.

I have seen traps used by others and usually witness the trap go off to little effect or just get stepped over. PvP seems to be a little different though in my experience this tends to be more rp based rather than being afraid the trap will actually do enough damage to kill or immobilise the other person.

My concern in respecing Shana to be a trapper has always been... are they viable as more than just a gimmick? :)

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:26 AM 

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Thanks for the consideration Kamina and for looking in to it further, that's all I ask.

I'm not sure if it is your intention Walnutboy, but you have pretty much provided the example to the points I raised. Whether for RP or mechanical reasons, you've chosen to forgo the use of the Master Scout's strongest features for what I can only determine from what you said, due to you considering them a gimmick with only a niche RP application. I won't argue whether the traps are worth using with regard to their damage or crowd controlling effects, but I will reiterate my point that given the opportunity to make more active use of the improved traps, would certainly help towards the incentive to use them more often for both RP and mechanical advantage.

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 7:37 AM 

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One thing to keep in mind when you're talking about giving tools to the class;

a) Master Scout is a fantastic splash, exceptionally easy requirements to get into
b) Gets 2 'epic feats' in the form of great stat feats or epic prowess at 1 and 5 in epic, most builds actually need both of these so you can just take them at no loss, and you can finagle your other 2 classes to get more epic bonus feats then other 'traditional' builds.
c) Frees up a lot of gear slots by opening up your belt slot.
d) Gets tumble (!!!)
e) Movespeed
f) +5 to all saves

Not to mention other things it gets (yeah it gets more then what I listed for a 5 level prc) but it's already pretty much a top-shelf prestige class. Given how strong it is I don't know if it really needs more toys.

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Yin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 8:12 AM 

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Commie wrote:
One thing to keep in mind when you're talking about giving tools to the class;

a) Master Scout is a fantastic splash, exceptionally easy requirements to get into
b) Gets 2 'epic feats' in the form of great stat feats or epic prowess at 1 and 5 in epic, most builds actually need both of these so you can just take them at no loss, and you can finagle your other 2 classes to get more epic bonus feats then other 'traditional' builds.
c) Frees up a lot of gear slots by opening up your belt slot.
d) Gets tumble (!!!)
e) Movespeed
f) +5 to all saves

Not to mention other things it gets (yeah it gets more then what I listed for a 5 level prc) but it's already pretty much a top-shelf prestige class. Given how strong it is I don't know if it really needs more toys.


You forgetting that you need to spend 2 feats to get that class in the first place, and that you need to spend quite big amount of skillpoints, most of them are cross classed, unless you're ranger/rogue, and if you don't have too much intellect, which can be a thing when you're not a wizard, it can cripple your skillpoints pool badly. Other than that, it also takes a class slot, which is also important, as NWN engine limited only to three classes per character.

All in all, MS bonuses are decent and can do very good for certain builds, and the fact that traps addition are almost useless, unless you prepare them out of combat, makes that aspect of class almost nonexistent.

It would be good, if it was possible, for example, to make an option for traps tools, so when you put trap, for example, it automatically upgrades with needed component, if this option is on, and you have that component in inventory, rather than manually upgrading traps through dialog menu out of combat.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 8:20 AM 

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Quote:
You forgetting that you need to spend 2 feats to get that class in the first place, and that you need to spend quite big amount of skillpoints, most of them are cross classed, unless you're ranger/rogue, and if you don't have too much intellect, which can be a thing when you're not a wizard, it can cripple your skillpoints pool badly. Other than that, it also takes a class slot, which is also important, as NWN engine limited only to three classes per character.


Yeah but here's the thing, it gets tumble, great 'stat' feats, and epic prowess. Which means it's an extremely potent class for that 'tumble dump' option because you get 2 things you would get anyway, tumble which you need, and class features which are really really good.

Additionally, it's not -that many- skill points, many of which should be a class skill for one of your classes, or you only need 2 points in it. The feats are kind of a dump, but considering Weapon Master makes you get two feats that do literally nothing (mobility and spring attack) once you get 30 tumble, getting -something- out of your pre-reqs is actually pretty good, and allows you to get epic skill focus spot, which is a very nice feat to pick up as far as skill feats go, moreso since you already have the prerequisite which is honestly a bit obnoxious to justify in most builds, unless you have to get it for master scout.

The skills are pretty good too. As with 2 points in traps you can now get trap gear and rock a set of +80 set trap equipment, which you can't do if you have no points in traps.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 9:04 AM 

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You don't need the pre epic skill foci to get the Epic skill foci.

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Yin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 9:59 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
You don't need the pre epic skill foci to get the Epic skill foci.


That.

Quote:
The skills are pretty good too. As with 2 points in traps you can now get trap gear and rock a set of +80 set trap equipment, which you can't do if you have no points in traps.


Skill cap for bonuses from equipment is +50.

If it's cross class points, for character with not so high int - will mean you most likely won't be able to max some other important skills.


Master Scout, in general, made as kind of addition to ranger class, in my opinion, with some adjustments, perhaps to rogues too, but I'll pick more levels of shadowdancer or rogue any day over 5 levels of master scout.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 10:32 AM 

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I appreciate that Master Scout as a class has other advantages to it besides the Improved Traps, but I would like to stress that none of those advantages have any effect on the issue and usage of the trap system, and should not be weighed in too heavily when looking at the the improvement I've put forward. However since you listed them, I'll speak to them.

a) Master Scout is a fantastic splash, exceptionally easy requirements to get into
- Exceptionally easy is a bit of a overstatement, in terms of feat and skill investment, there are far more prestige classes that require far less and grant far more.

b) Gets 2 'epic feats' in the form of great stat feats or epic prowess at 1 and 5 in epic, most builds actually need both of these so you can just take them at no loss, and you can finagle your other 2 classes to get more epic bonus feats then other 'traditional' builds.
- This assumes a few things, 1. The player builds to take Master Scout only in Epic Levels. I suspect the majority of Master Scouts take atleast one of those bonus feats during non-epic levels, since they actually want to make use of the class earlier on whilst its still mostly useful and you know, for RP. 2. That everyone will take Epic Prowess. 3. That people take Master Scout to powerbuild.

c) Frees up a lot of gear slots by opening up your belt slot.
- Only removes the need to have Freedom on an item, something that is obtained incredibly easily through a multitude of items and is even easier to obtain in potion form. Hardly something build defining.

d) Gets tumble (!!!)
- Great for power builders who use Master Scout as a filler, but likely a non-factor for players who are looking to play typical scout or rogueish role as they will probably have Rogue/Bard/Assassin/Monk/Shadow Dancer levels.

e) Movespeed
- Equivalent of 1 level of Barbarian. Easily becomes a non-factor as soon as you enter a party that provides haste or additional forms of movement speed.

f) +5 to all saves
- Provided through a short duration, situational, 1x per rest ability. Definitely not something that would afford you re-allocating stats from gear, and definitely not something that defines the class.


Quote:
It would be good, if it was possible, for example, to make an option for traps tools, so when you put trap, for example, it automatically upgrades with needed component, if this option is on, and you have that component in inventory, rather than manually upgrading traps through dialog menu out of combat.


I agree with this, unfortunately I believe that this solution would be far more time consuming and require additional script rework to get in game, which is why I didn't propose this option as a solution. I actually like the trap dialogue menu, i think it offers everything you need to configure the traps, the only issue is that in order to upgrade the traps, you need to be out of combat, which eliminates aggressive use of the improved traps (this is particularly an issue in longer encounters).

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 12:43 PM 



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Well, I like the traps (at least in theory, I don't even know what they all do), but I would like them to be better. Because they are usually a neglected part of MS. And because I have made a trapper and am biased. Updating traps more easily is good though, I'd like that.

Still, there is almost no reason not to go MS, if your build allows it. It's really not difficult to get for most builds, and gets you tumble. Oh, you said "typical rogue"? DISCIPLINE!!!11!!1!one!
A rogue will not like have access to discipline, unless you go specifically for it. And that is about as neccessary as tumble.

+5 to saves for 10 minutes, every fifteen minutes is really good. Yes, not reliable enough to always have it up, but half of an epic item? (cloak of fortitude) That is active 66% of grinding time, if you really need it? That is active during bosses if you save it for them? It's good. And good is an understatement actually.

While I usually don't look at builds that take MS full in epic, even just going four preepic, and then one epic for epic tumble and/or discipline dump and evening out the odd ability score is good.

Perma-freedom, especially when removing freedom from items is gonna be good. If not, it still is two mythal powers you saved, and you can get things like +6 ability belts.

2 AB, while not reliable, is, as far as I have heard, really weird and randomly working in areas, but I'll take it. A chance of having more AB? Good.

Until you tell me a class that really can't make the space for the skills, I don't believe that. A WM Fighter Master Scout works. Pretty well.

Anything that is not a UMD class (or caster, but you are not likely going MS as a caster) can use the essences really well, since 1d8 extra damage makes you a lot more self sufficient, along with the best animal buffs on the server. Oh, you forgot to buy some in a city? Let me make some quickly, done!

Apparently people value speed highly as well here, but I'll leave someone else to argue that, or for you to read through the Blinding Speed discussion I started. Again, situational, but good enough.


 
      
NAUX
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 14:31 PM 

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We clearly have different opinions regarding the value of the abilities MS provides, that's fair enough, I won't and don't want to argue over those opinions in this topic. What we seem to agree on however is that the trap system is the "neglected part of MS". Regardless of the how powerful people think the rest of the class abilities are, they don't make up for the trap system needing some love, and we are unlikely to see an entire trap overhaul any time soon, so my points and suggestion towards an "in combat upgrade widget" stands.

Yes, it is another tool for MS (I'll reiterate that it should be "DM granted", just like the Druid shape shifting widgets), No, it won't put them over the power limit as a class by them having it, because currently the trap portion of the Master Scout class does very little for many people. If you disagree, and have never played a Master Scout before, I encourage you to level one to 5 and try to use your traps aggressively, solo, let alone in a party. You'll quickly learn why such a small, request only, change to the class as outlined would go along way for people who actually want to use the trap system. If you're of the mind to only take MS for its class feats, skills and weapon essences to max your powerbuild's output, then you you're missing the point of this topic and change.

I couldn't care if Master Scout had immune to critical, bioware truesight or access to every epic feat in the game as a bonus feat, none of that would change how one interacts with the improved traps system.

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 5:12 AM 

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Yin wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
You don't need the pre epic skill foci to get the Epic skill foci.


That.

Quote:
The skills are pretty good too. As with 2 points in traps you can now get trap gear and rock a set of +80 set trap equipment, which you can't do if you have no points in traps.


Skill cap for bonuses from equipment is +50.

If it's cross class points, for character with not so high int - will mean you most likely won't be able to max some other important skills.


Master Scout, in general, made as kind of addition to ranger class, in my opinion, with some adjustments, perhaps to rogues too, but I'll pick more levels of shadowdancer or rogue any day over 5 levels of master scout.


You'd take SD 11 over SD 6 master scout 5? *what*?

Take 20 adds +20 for traps. Still only +70 but well enough to set epics.

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Yin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 5:17 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
Yin wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
You don't need the pre epic skill foci to get the Epic skill foci.


That.

Quote:
The skills are pretty good too. As with 2 points in traps you can now get trap gear and rock a set of +80 set trap equipment, which you can't do if you have no points in traps.


Skill cap for bonuses from equipment is +50.

If it's cross class points, for character with not so high int - will mean you most likely won't be able to max some other important skills.


Master Scout, in general, made as kind of addition to ranger class, in my opinion, with some adjustments, perhaps to rogues too, but I'll pick more levels of shadowdancer or rogue any day over 5 levels of master scout.


You'd take SD 11 over SD 6 master scout 5? *what*?

Take 20 adds +20 for traps. Still only +70 but well enough to set epics.



Yep, 11 SD levels way better than SD 6/master scout 5.

Especially if third class is rogue.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 5:34 AM 

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That's objectively wrong. Absolutely objectively wrong. Let's assume your ending build is 19 rogue 11 Sd versus 19 rogue 6 SD 5 Master Scout. You're giving up extra fortitude saves and 2 extra feats which can be more bonus saves or +2 dex in epic, and gaining absolutely nothing you're not already getting from your rogue levels. You're not gainnig bonus sneak attack, and you're not a high enough level to get epic Shadowlord. You're giving up the master scout crafting, the +2 AB in wilderness, extra move speed (AS A SHADOWDANCER) and permanent undispellable slotless freedom in return for getting access to Improved Evasion and Slippery Mind, two things you'll be getting on your Rogue levels because Opportunity and Skill Mastery just are not very useful to 99.9% of people. You're also losing a Discipline dump class. You are gaining LITERALLY NOTHING but Shadow Daze cooldown reduction and more Shadowjumps, and a very slightly better Shadow Evade that is nothing compared to having actual class features that function all day every day,

I'm sorry, some build things can come down to opinion, but you are factually objectively wrong to say that 11 Sd is better than 6 SD 5 Master Scout, ESPECIALLY in the context of all other levels being rogue.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 6:31 AM 

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Skill Mastery just are not very useful to 99.9% of people.


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- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
Yin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 8:14 AM 

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With third bard class, added to rogue/shadowdancer, firstly, you'll have full discipline + full spellcraft save vs spells bonus, which is only two points lower than same from master scout, and works permanently, without need to be casted, while in return you gain all needed feats for dual wielding plus epic dodge required feats. I afraid you're forgetting the fact that both epic shadowdancer and rogues levels get bonus feats every three levels, which also convert into epic feats you need so much for proper dual wielding/epic dodge. The only reasonable build I see, if you pick 4 Master Scout levels pre epic, this will increase your fortitude or will save of course, but you'll lose at least two feats this way including one of epic skill focuses and either improved critical for your weapon or something similarly important. On the other hand this build will have higher normal fort save with buff, but only 2 points higher compared to save vs. spells (which is more important as you won't have high enough save to counter dev crit or PM death touch in both ways most likely). Yet, if you pick 6 levels of fighter, instead of MS for example, you'll get like +6 damage on each hit + maxed discipline + increased AB + additional attack per round for only -2 to fort save, and a bit more for other saves.
I am also not taking essences into account - as they can be bought from someone else (like that said dwarf for example, which happily trades them to all willing customers), as well as potions (which is mostly a flavor feature in my opinion). That class has nothing unique, that would make anyone to take it out of pure RP reasons, like being inventor/essence trader, like that dwarf. So, adding something like combat traps class specific, would had been great improvement for it to be actually useful enough for people wishing to pick it.

I must admit though that, I am not taking into account builds with less than 10 SD levels, as you'll going to lose lots of Amia specific RP stuff, not saying huge class bonuses, as in my opinion taking less than 10 SD levels is like just for HiPS, is like, for example, buying a sword, cause it has nice red glowing color, while not paying attention to its stats.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 8:25 AM 

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Yin wrote:
With third bard class, added to rogue/shadowdancer, firstly, you'll have full discipline + full spellcraft save vs spells bonus, which is only two points lower than same from master scout, and works permanently, without need to be casted, while in return you gain all needed feats for dual wielding plus epic dodge required feats. I afraid you're forgetting the fact that both epic shadowdancer and rogues levels get bonus feats every three levels, which also convert into epic feats you need so much for proper dual wielding/epic dodge. The only reasonable build I see, if you pick 4 Master Scout levels pre epic, this will increase your fortitude or will save of course, but you'll lose at least two feats this way including one of epic skill focuses and either improved critical for your weapon or something similarly important. On the other hand this build will have higher normal fort save with buff, but only 2 points higher compared to save vs. spells (which is more important as you won't have high enough save to counter dev crit or PM death touch in both ways most likely). Yet, if you pick 6 levels of fighter, instead of MS for example, you'll get like +6 damage on each hit + maxed discipline + increased AB + additional attack per round for only -2 to fort save, and a bit more for other saves.
I am also not taking essences into account - as they can be bought from someone else (like that said dwarf for example, which happily trades them to all willing customers), as well as potions (which is mostly a flavor feature in my opinion). That class has nothing unique, that would make anyone to take it out of pure RP reasons, like being inventor/essence trader, like that dwarf. So, adding something like combat traps class specific, would had been great improvement for it to be actually useful enough for people wishing to pick it.

I must admit though that, I am not taking into account builds with less than 10 SD levels, as you'll going to lose lots of Amia specific RP stuff, not saying huge class bonuses, as in my opinion taking less than 10 SD levels is like just for HiPS, is like, for example, buying a sword, cause it has nice red glowing color, while not paying attention to its stats.


think the dunbak build is better, it's like 11 sd, and some combination of fighter and 7+ weapon master (I forget the exact spread)

crazy high ab, 11 sd so it's an 'epic' shadow dancer, and the damage output and mobility is absurd with 10 shadowjumps and hips. not to mention 10-20x3 crit. you lose some skill points compared to using rogue, but gain like 12 AB and crit stuff and 10+ levels of fighter bonus feats.

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Yin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 9:42 AM 

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There are many builds, that have strong and weak points. They can excel at one point, but be weak at another. This one you mentioned, for example, lacks UMD, which can be critical weakness in certain situations, even if it will be very good at close combat fighting. I prefer more versatile builds myself, that, maybe not so good at certain something, but good enough by being jack-of-all-trades, and can do almost the same as most other classes, with certain exceptions.

Even though it's not the point of topic in any way, as we discussing master scout in general, and usefulness of its traps in here, and not shadowdancers builds somehow. :)

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 13:00 PM 

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Thanks for bringing it back on topic Yin. Just as a bit of general FYI, I took Master Scout specifically for the grenades and the traps, with a focus on the later as my primary weapon (when I can afford it, the rest of the time its sling bullets, alchemist fire and cantrip grenades). I really would have zero problem being put in Leto and stripped of every other feat/ability that the class offered me if I were just left with the grenade and trap craft menu.

My build is probably as far removed as it can be from viable to most of the monster hunters on this server, but I enjoy it and its uselessness and it is also the reason why I have no interest in any mechanical synergy that Master Scout has with other builds in this topic (I know how to use Master Scout to powerbuild, I have done so in the past to have a Barbarian with Terrifying Rage, Mighty Rage and Dev Crit). I'm here for what I believe to be a simple opportunity to provide a huge quality of life change to the Improved Traps, and nothing more, and I'd like for that to be the impression the staff get too whilst they continue to review my proposed change.

As I have played Bolrid, I have just noticed and felt the impact of the trap system's lacking qualities more and more as I leveled up, and when I hit 5th level of Master Scout (at level 21), I hit a wall in my characters progression when it came to the use of the Improved Traps beyond first mob pull / pre-fight setup. I know I am a special snowflake and the 1%, but in my uselessness and dependency on the trap system, I saw room for improvement for all current and future Master Scouts and their use of traps, whether they be a Shadow Dancer, Rogue, Fighter or WM.

Although I think the bases have been covered and the issue pretty well exposed, please continue to provide any insight you may have as a trapper that may be helpful to contributing towards this improvement request.

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 15:52 PM 

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Yin wrote:
There are many builds, that have strong and weak points. They can excel at one point, but be weak at another. This one you mentioned, for example, lacks UMD, which can be critical weakness in certain situations, even if it will be very good at close combat fighting. I prefer more versatile builds myself, that, maybe not so good at certain something, but good enough by being jack-of-all-trades, and can do almost the same as most other classes, with certain exceptions.

Even though it's not the point of topic in any way, as we discussing master scout in general, and usefulness of its traps in here, and not shadowdancers builds somehow. :)


You can get pretty much anything you would want umd for on non umd items. The SD academy for example sells imp invis dust. Works as good as a wand, no umd, and essentially everything else in the game is available on an epic which can now be requested via the djinn.

As for NAUX, try the chain lighting traps. They shred things.

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CrazyCatLady
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 16:07 PM 

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Rania is a MS, and I've frequently had her lace a hunting area with traps, then draw whatever she's fighting back over the traps. Even with them improved with the MS abilities...eh. She's turned her focus more on the bombs in part due to that (crafting her own specialized ones for rp purposes), but it would be wonderful to see the traps improved on.

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DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 01 2017, 16:23 PM 

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NAUX wrote:
In my opinion players are deterred and are unlikely to continue setting traps throughout combat beyond the opening of the fight for multiple reasons in addition the points above, for example:

- Laziness. It's a hassle to keep placing traps, the fight moves too quickly as mobs die so fast. I have to disarm my trap again if it doesn't get triggered in combat and my party will rush off without me whilst I disarm it.

- Inefficiency. The standard traps do less damage than I could do myself in a round of combat. Why bother using them after my initial couple of traps in the opener of the fight, doing so would simply be a loss of DPS and the mobs will probably make the Reflex save anyway.

- Build limitations. I haven't got the skill level to place the traps during combat and I'm certainly not going to equip all the items I need to meet the Set Trap DC just to put down a trap or two or spend my mythal power on adding the Set Trap skill point s to my items so that I meet the passive requirements. I only took the Set Trap skill to be able to use traps on a rare basis to look cool and meet my RP needs as a trapper.


I tried using traps once and all of the above are true. It made playing as a rogue awful. Wet noodle traps, long animations and absurd inventory requirements. Here's an equation:

Time = Money

Combine this with high reflex saves (high saves in general on most anything) you have to sacrifice a lot to even consider it an endgame playstyle. To that, Bolrid gets my mead.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 12:11 PM 

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Joined: 15 Mar 2010
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Any developments on this from the development team? I know Kamina was the last one to speak to this in an official capacity, but he has now transferred over to the DM team. After all the discussion from various players, I'd just like to know if this is something that is being considered for near (or future) work and whether to keep the faith and continue praying for it :P

Thanks.

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 15:25 PM 



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So. Master Scout is my favorite Prestige Class, Right behind Blackguard. Now if only someone could put the two together.... Anyway. Traps. The main issue with traps is that it may be fun in a solo, pvm encounter, however PVP, trapping and area almost always ends badly. Most players on this server have improved evasion, so unless you invest in dayssss of trap collecting on advance, the gains are negligible if not useless. The likelihood of trapping becoming the flavor of the month will only lead to a demand for find trap scrolls, which are cheap, and readily available. People will meta your build. So. Now you have the pve applications. People in a party with you have to wait actual minutes for you to trap an area. That is incredibly boring for your party and an absolute novelty. Again I state. PVP rules are kinda effed. Especially for a trapper and historically it has always endes in ooc WTF's as you have to give person rp, a chance to walk away and a chance to flag hostile before you damage him. That being said. I love it. I love dedicated trappers and the rp implicatios are amazing. I hope this happens, even if it will be under utilized.

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Opustus
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 17:10 PM 

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How I long for the skirmishes in South Cordor with the Black Flag! I chugged at least twenty healing potions on my DwD to make it across the map. Tell that 'everyone has Imp Evasion' to the people who actually don't have it. And further, to the people who are eaten up by a nice line of Acid Blobs, how do you like that you reflex-up-your-arse you?!

I agree that people will "meta the build" (not my words!) and invest WISELY in gear to help them avoid traps. However, a cornersneak can trap certain tactical corners to allow oneself to return to one's hideyhole to reactivate Stealth, adjust gear, etc. Until the 600HP Barb, DwD, or RDD just comes and runs them as if over lukewarm coal.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 23 2017, 21:59 PM 

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We are looking into this and discussing this now.

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Cracked Red Eye Orb
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 24 2017, 1:39 AM 



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Not sure if it was mentioned before or not, but could the possibility of enabling traps to be laid without breaking stealth be possible? Would be nifty.


 
      
NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 24 2017, 9:21 AM 

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Thanks for the update Maverick, I appreciate the team taking the time looking at this, regardless of the outcome!

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The inspiration behind the character:
- https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grenadier_(3.5e_Class)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjewxCxKLA


 
      
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