Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
Currently, when you use Shades or Shadow Conjuration to summon, it is set to a default, undead creature. While it is rather useful, it isn't exactly something a lot of characters have a taste for. I have asked a few players and have had conflicting views on this. Most say it is just an undead summon. Pnp, it would actually be ANY summon spell (Arcane) 8th level or lower. Though it is only 80% as strong, unless the target believes it is real. For the sake of keeping people from pulling they're hair out, trying to make yet another alignment based summon, can we simply rule out necromancy? While the creature is clearly undead, the means of it's creation required no souls, blood or corpses. Just a question. Does anyone else have any input?
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Its a shame NWN burked the spell as such making it an undead summon. Its a fun spell to have for any illusionist (which I play) but instead can leave them with a bad rep for summoning undead creatures which makes many tend to avoid using this spell for that purpose. In pnp its an illusionary creature made from shadow stuff from the plane of shadow much like the shadow dancer's summons. Not sure if there is a will or a way for this summon to get a switch from undead to outsider as well?
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
Michael is by far, exactly how I would try to roll a sorcerer in pnp. His low level spells are almost entirely utility spells, though since he is epic in both illusion and transmutation, he suffers in NWN. Not really something I am too concerned about. Though Shades is a wonderful spell, if understood. You have both a fireball and a cone of cold with a high enough DC that they actually have a chance of landing and of course, a powerful summon that has nothing to do with necromancy or conjuration. I think the biggest misunderstanding about this summon being considered undead comes from the fact that everyone knows it's character sheet. For those alligned with Michael, they would see him conjuring an illusion in which to terrify his enemies. Instead this is viewed as " You just aummoned and undead". The creature only becomes real if you believe it. That's how the spell works. *raises hand* Scouts honor.
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Alternatively it could be changed via script to summon an "Illusory" variant of whatever your summoning book is set at with a Vfx change and Str/Dex/Con/Resistance penalties for not having SF: Illusion and GSF: Illusion. Shades would then become the Gate of the Illusory summons.
That would then allow the Shadow models to be used for Palemasters and Necromancers as an alternative to the limited undead stuff currently used on Amia. Sort of like the switching ability you have with regards to summons 1-9 now. Incorporeal and Corporeal. Shadow of the Void becomes the Palemaster's top deck summon. I have and always will hate that something as epic as SoV is so broadly available.
2 cents.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
I agree 100% Chris. Though, I'm not necessarily trying to add more work to the already crazy amount of summon tweaking. Hopefully it's not the same poor soul that has to work on shifter bugs. Merely how this spell is percieved and or received. Michael is an illusionist and he is merely using a spell from the illusion line. I understand that NWN has flaws, defaulting the spell to an undead summon is definitly one of them.
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Tell them it's not a real Shadow of the Void, it's simply an illusionary copy of one, and in no way upsetting balance, or putting anyone in danger anymore then a sword balloon might. You know.. besides the people you attack with it.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
MoshingChris wrote:
Alternatively it could be changed via script to summon an "Illusory" variant of whatever your summoning book is set at with a Vfx change and Str/Dex/Con/Resistance penalties for not having SF: Illusion and GSF: Illusion. Shades would then become the Gate of the Illusory summons.
That would then allow the Shadow models to be used for Palemasters and Necromancers as an alternative to the limited undead stuff currently used on Amia. Sort of like the switching ability you have with regards to summons 1-9 now. Incorporeal and Corporeal. Shadow of the Void becomes the Palemaster's top deck summon. I have and always will hate that something as epic as SoV is so broadly available.
2 cents.
I think I remember this suggestion of yours back in the Tester's forum eons ago. I really liked it then and still do now. The only thing I disagreed with was I think we were gonna go with Fire being their weakness on account of "Light" beating darkness. I would much rather seen them be weak to Electric 1) because electromagnetic junk is more directly related to light than thermal junk and 2) because we've got enough things weak to fire already, while Electric is very rare to be used at all. You got the golem place and then underwater. Plenty of undead are vulnerable to fire too, so it would be good to set them apart as much as possible if they're gonna be non-undead.
As for the lore of the current summons, it's what Tormie said, but god knows our Shadow lore is screwed up anyway because we wanted Shadowdancers to summon Shadows but not be labeled icky undead-users. Shadow Variant shadows are definitely (naturally occurring) Undead but the amount of people who ICly will be fine with them, thinking they work similarly to SD's babby Shadows, is huge. Ironic that in trying to save one class the stigma of a certain undead, we virtually erased the stigma from the undead itself. In any case, I'd much rather be summoning shadowy simulacrums than death-ghosts via the Variants.
*And let's fix the Variants to actually use Illusion Spell Foci while we're at it. Please.
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
Shadow Variant shadows are definitely (naturally occurring) Undead but the amount of people who ICly will be fine with them, thinking they work similarly to SD's babby Shadows, is huge.]
So, here's the problem... They're not. I don't know if this is a case of custom server lore decided to take a crap on how the spell works in Pen and Paper (And if that's the case you folks over in the DM box should really, REALLY make that publicly known about without it having to be trawled up on the forums) or what, but lets take a look at how the spell is actually presented. Here's an excerpt from the 3.0 player's handbook (Thankfully provided by http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html ). Lets take a look at it.
Shadow Conjuration Illusion (Shadow) Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 action Range: See text Effect: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with); varies (see text) Spell Resistance: No (see text) The character uses material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration spell of 3rd level or lower. Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength. All those that interact with the conjured object, force, or creature can make Will saves to recognize its shadowy nature. Those who succeed do so. Attack spells have normal effects unless those affected succeed at Will saves. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. Mimicked spells allow the normal saves and SR. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are one-fifth strength or 20% likely to work. Shadow creatures have one-fifth the normal hit points (regardless of whether they’re recognized as shadowy). They deal normal damage and have all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature who recognizes them as shadowy, however, such a creature’s damage is one-fifth normal, and all special abilities that do not produce normal damage (in hit points) are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.) Furthermore, the shadow creature’s AC bonuses are one-fifth as large. Those who succeed at their saves see the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms.
Okay, that's a lot of text, so why don't we shorten it to the two lines that matter?
Player's Handbook wrote:
Shadow Conjuration Illusion (Shadow)
So, we have the Shadow Conjuration spell and we can see that it's of the Illusion school, with the Shadow sub school. At this point I'd like to ask the readers, "So, how does an Illusion spell summon up some icky undead anyway?" - I expect the answer from to be along the lines of some of the people who think this line of spells makes actual undead to be "Well how does it make fireballs? That's just how the spell works." But I have a better answer. Lets take a look at the Shadow sub-school!
Player's Handbook wrote:
Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real (quasi-real). The caster weaves it from extradimensional energies. Such illusions can have real effects. If a creature takes damage from a shadow illusion, that damage is real.
Emphasis mine, but the text was taken out of the 3.0's player handbook.
So these are illusions. They're illusions used as a container for extra-dimensional energy, typically fluffed as matter taken from the plane of shadow by various core and setting books. No matter what you think, the stuff they create is technically not real. This means they're not (fluff wise) actually undead. Now if you folks want to make the spell closer to what it actually is, fine, go ahead - I'd be all for that! Just stop calling the thing I summon undead because it says so on the character sheet - I'm tired of head cannon stomping on how things actually work and getting angry players calling me a liar out of character because I actually read what the spell does and decided to stick to it.
Edit: The 3.5 handbook has the same rules/fluff by the way - I just decided to pick at the 3.0 version of the spell because that's what we're technically (kinda sorta?) using in NWN 1.
Having the illusion school summon cough up an undead is a huge shame and waste of the spell's potential. Pigeonholing illusionists with necromancers is bad.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
Sharl wrote:
So these are illusions. They're illusions used as a container for extra-dimensional energy, typically fluffed as matter taken from the plane of shadow by various core and setting books. No matter what you think, the stuff they create is technically not real.
Our Shadow Variants do not work like they do in P&P. They're not illusions, they're versions of the spells partially "reconstituted" from shadowstuff. It's not a matter of what I think or anyone's "headcannon", that's the established lore of the server. And it works better that way. NWN shadow variants don't have a will save or partial damage from disbelief or any of that. They just call up the script for the regular version of the spells, even going so far as working off of their original spell Foci(which is more of a side-effect than an intended thing). The point is that while yes, that's how it would be handled in any normal D&D game, the way it was implemented in vanilla NWN was so off the mark, we had to come up with our own explanation for how the spells worked.
Perhaps it could be more visible, but again, Shadow Variant Summons are indeed Undead. You've ever got a DM in this thread stating that. Perhaps our fellow players could have told you in a nicer way, but they were not wrong if they were insisting that Shadows are what they are.
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
So these are illusions. They're illusions used as a container for extra-dimensional energy, typically fluffed as matter taken from the plane of shadow by various core and setting books. No matter what you think, the stuff they create is technically not real.
Our Shadow Variants do not work like they do in P&P. They're not illusions, they're versions of the spells partially "reconstituted" from shadowstuff. It's not a matter of what I think or anyone's "headcannon", that's the established lore of the server. And it works better that way. NWN shadow variants don't have a will save or partial damage from disbelief or any of that. They just call up the script for the regular version of the spells, even going so far as working off of their original spell Foci(which is more of a side-effect than an intended thing). The point is that while yes, that's how it would be handled in any normal D&D game, the way it was implemented in vanilla NWN was so off the mark, we had to come up with our own explanation for how the spells worked.
This really feeling like jumping through a lot of hoops for, honestly, something that feels like a non-issue. We have a perfectly good way to explain how the spell works already. And this brings up another issue - This huge change in lore really isn't explicitly stated in any of the stickies or big important posts that the sever directs you to before you start playing, there's nothing about it on the spell page either. And trust me, I've looked around.
So these are illusions. They're illusions used as a container for extra-dimensional energy, typically fluffed as matter taken from the plane of shadow by various core and setting books. No matter what you think, the stuff they create is technically not real.
Our Shadow Variants do not work like they do in P&P. They're not illusions, they're versions of the spells partially "reconstituted" from shadowstuff. It's not a matter of what I think or anyone's "headcannon", that's the established lore of the server. And it works better that way. NWN shadow variants don't have a will save or partial damage from disbelief or any of that. They just call up the script for the regular version of the spells, even going so far as working off of their original spell Foci(which is more of a side-effect than an intended thing). The point is that while yes, that's how it would be handled in any normal D&D game, the way it was implemented in vanilla NWN was so off the mark, we had to come up with our own explanation for how the spells worked.
This really feeling like jumping through a lot of hoops for, honestly, something that feels like a non-issue. We have a perfectly good way to explain how the spell works already. And this brings up another issue - This huge change in lore really isn't explicitly stated in any of the stickies or big important posts that the sever directs you to before you start playing, there's nothing about it on the spell page either. And trust me, I've looked around.
You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
If there was no lore change at all, why is the stuff I'm summoning via the spell line actual undead? I mean, it's one thing to have them still treated as -mechanically- undead, I'm fine with that, but fluff wise we've changed it from 'This looks like a fireball, but it's really just an illusion of one with some magic material to give it some physical oomph' to what seems like 'You're illusioning up some spells that were cast before using shadows. Somehow.' even thought that goes against what the illusion school of magic actually even does. We had an explanation of how this spell functions that made sense within' the context of the D&D world (Which can get dumb and crazy, I know, but bare with me here) and we threw it away for something that really doesn't. Plus, I'm not exactly keen on finding out that my main character has been secretly a NECROLUSIONIST this entire time and I didn't even know it.
SD shades are outsiders, rather than undead. Different beast entirely from the Shadow Conjuration argument, though I think they should just make the shadow conjuration spells follow suit.
The big thing is that shades and co are 'mimicking' spells. So yeah a Shades summons a 'shadow undead' and yeah you're gonna get listed for using black necromancy if you do it.
A shadow-dancer summon isn't 'mimicking' anything it's just a shadow. That's the difference.
Why is it assumed that the vast majority of illusionists would prefer to summon a "shadow undead" rather than a "shadow giant fucking bear"? The mechanical decision to make the summons undead is just absurdly shortsighted. It'd be pretty trivial to change the models and names to something more generic.
Why is it assumed that the vast majority of illusionists would prefer to summon a "shadow undead" rather than a "shadow giant fucking bear"? It's just absurdly shortsighted.
what can I tell you? why does dragon shape only let you pick between evil dragons?
it's cause evil is beer and nachos and good is wine and crackers.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
NinjaClarinet wrote:
Why is it assumed that the vast majority of illusionists would prefer to summon a "shadow undead" rather than a "shadow giant fucking bear"? The mechanical decision to make the summons undead is just absurdly shortsighted. It'd be pretty trivial to change the models and names to something more generic.
Summon Shadow as it was originally in the shadow variants summoned Shadows and Shadow Mastiffs. It was probably less of a conscious decision and more of keeping the spell in line of what it did in base NWN, for better or worse.
There's no point in becoming that upset of it one way or another. The list of things-that-are-like-they-are-only-because-it-was-a-quicker-easier-fix for our server is pretty damn long. I know, because I was a broken record about it when I was a tester. It sucks. But if we can make something better, more logical, smarter in the narrative of the setting, we will. Eventually. It's just not a pressing matter most of the time.
PassionateShadow wrote:
Dose this mean if I were to make an SD pally that I shouldn't summon the Shade?
Like Ninja said, they're outsiders. You'd be fine to summon one as a paladin in most cases(while not mechanically undead, I don't see Lathander or Horus Re being enthusiastic about a Paladin using "shadows" of any kind). Again, as far as I know the only reason we even have that rule is because in early Amia, SD was one of our favored classes and the idea of them using undead didn't jive with that vision of them. But even in P&P, while a SD's Shadow would take on their alignment instead of being CE, they were still described as being an "undead shade."
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
Halfling Paladin of Dallah Thaun's aspect of Yondalla.
Human Paladin of Hoar I could see as a messenger of vengeance from the shadows.
Paladin of Selune working under the hidden light of the moon.
Dwarven Paladon of Gorm Gulthym, taking inspiration from his God's defense of ancient, dying clanholds, and the sputtering, dimming embers of his god within.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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