AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Hi there

I've been watching a few nerfes for the sake of balance about important spells casted from Wizards. If they were worth or fair, I still have to see it in game to tell, but what bothers me as a player is how cheap it is to beat most of the spells casted by pure builds if you have UMD or potions. If I recall well, even a rogue with UMD is able to cast Mord from scrolls and (correct me if I'm wrong) to also be able to strip off a pure caster.

In such condition, a pure caster being stripped off from spells by a rogue would probably cast Great Sanctuary that not does not allow the player to cast offensive (not sure about defensive) spells anymore. So basically if you strip off a pure caster using scrolls he/she would cast GS to run away. Not even the right to use Haven a wizard is able, even knowing the Haven spell is on the spell list of wizards. But Haven spell is another subject for another post.

In lights of those points I exposed, I would like to suggest a bonus for playing a very squish class in order to enhance what they're made of: DC check. For pure casters, you guys could check on the possibility to give a bonus or +1 or maybe +3 on DCs of the spells they're able to cast. But if you multi-class, you automatically loose that bonus.

Would that solve the issue the players would get immunity to certain spells by wearing items while using potions to prevent others or items to enhance their Fort? Maybe not, but that would increase the chance.

A scroll cannot dispel a pure build.

Quote:

To remove an effect, the caster makes a dispel check of 1d20, +1 per caster level (to a maximum of +40) against a DC of 12 + the spell effect's caster level.

This means that DC is 42. A Mordenkainen's scroll doesn't have enough caster levels to beat it.

No, but it can dispel buffs from a 27 CL or lower mage. There's also the unblockable breach part of it, there's no save for that. And it lowers SR by 10 still.

I threw out before that it would be nice to make the scrolls not lower SR, might even be nice to have them not do the breach; also cap the CL they can dispel. Pocket mages are bad.

I think you can disable possibility of casting spells from scrolls. What about that? Certain scrolls would be only for learning and for casting?

It is just about selecting which spells are so essential that they should be not castable. Mordekain, timestop, what else?

I don't think pure casters need a boost. They have great DCs for spells, lots of powerful spells to cast, a nice familiar, and apparently they are un-dispelable. A pure Rogue or even Fighter should get a bonus, but not casters.

Murex wrote:

I don't think pure casters need a boost. They have great DCs for spells, lots of powerful spells to cast, a nice familiar, and apparently they are un-dispelable. A pure Rogue or even Fighter should get a bonus, but not casters.

Are you being sarcastic? Their DC's can't beat most people with decent gear, and even if it did, most of the spells dont work thanks to a variety of properties like IE, Freedom, Fear Immunity, 100% ele resist, Spell mantle potions..... They are more dispellable than a noncaster, sadly, because of how CL is broken.

Pocket mages are bad, but real casters are worse, sadly. I'd like to say it's a known issue and we're evaluating options on how to address this so that they aren't as binary bad.

No I'm not kidding. Spell Resistance doesn't do squat against pure casters. Freedom and Fear Immunity should be removed from items, but with fear duration nerfed to be only a few rounds since it's broken when it works. That is enough to balance things.

Edit: IE should probably also be removed from that ring, but Evasion and a boost to Reflex saves to replace it. Try fixing these things and then see the result.

If casters are to get bonus from being pure, all pure builds should get the bonus on their DC checks as well since we all know multi-class brings them to a better level in comparison to pure. It's just bump up for balance, since it's not difficult to get bonus gear in game to beat the DC as it is. Instead of fishing for 1, you would end up fishing for 1-3 on deadly spells.

Yes, pocket casters are bad. They should be survivable, but not able to beat a caster entirely as we currently have. I like those suggestions about the nerfe on Mord from scrolls too.

There's no way in hell that mages on Amia are in a bad spot mechanically. There could be improvements, however. I'd start off with as Murex said to remove that damn Improved Evasion from items. It'd open up a lot for mages who actually want to deal damage with anything other than IGMS/Ice Storm/Ruin/Hellball. (Maxed Chain Lightning anyone?). It'd also make "True" IE classes such as Rogues or Monks more attractive, which I support.

Also, I have a very hard time having any form of sympathy for mages when there are mages running around with custom spells doing anything from will against current hp, auras and probably a shit ton of stuff I don't even know about. Mages = mechanical luxury on Amia. Let's look at the mundane classes first if you want to buff something.

It would actually be a better idea to get rid of the OP custom stuff. There's a lot of DC things from spells to items that should just be done away with.

Faded Wings wrote:

Murex wrote:

I don't think pure casters need a boost. They have great DCs for spells, lots of powerful spells to cast, a nice familiar, and apparently they are un-dispelable. A pure Rogue or even Fighter should get a bonus, but not casters.

Are you being sarcastic? Their DC's can't beat most people with decent gear, and even if it did, most of the spells dont work thanks to a variety of properties like IE, Freedom, Fear Immunity, 100% ele resist, Spell mantle potions..... They are more dispellable than a noncaster, sadly, because of how CL is broken.

Pocket mages are bad, but real casters are worse, sadly. I'd like to say it's a known issue and we're evaluating options on how to address this so that they aren't as binary bad.

I'm going to raise and call your bluff. Caster vs player balance is fine other than one or two spells still needing balancing (seriously, Bigby's is still broken cheese). While most builds can afford to get one save to a nice level (say for the sake of argument 35+), due to the limitations of the mythal power system, it's rare to have builds that can get 2 or all 3 saves to a level of reasonable certainty without sacrificing playability elsewhere (be it AC, stats, etc). About the only builds that can achieve this are Cha-based paladins/blackguards, guys with a whole lot of CoT levels or builds which can afford mythal power economy through feats or spells like Epic Mage Armor, Barkskin, Greater Magic Vestment, etc. Anybody else is only going to have one save higher 30 or so typically and that's because they have high Dex, Con or Wis. Everybody else is outta luck.

Freedom is not a problem, it's a necessity. At every spell level mages have one (several on some spell levels) "save or screwed" spell that's an instant win that Freedom prevents and that's just mages (clerics, druids, and even bards have plenty too). All of these spells are seeded into the module and almost every encounter has at least 1 caster hucking them. Freedom is necessary simply because these save or screwed spells are so prolific that a PC shouldn't be faced with dying 1 in 20 encounters just due to statistics. Mages have many other ways to disable and kill people other than anything opposed by freedom so pardon me if I don't cry for a guy who doesn't realize he has a whole spellbook to use.

Potion CL for non-casters has been fixed ages ago, so you're harping about nothing there. It's as dispellable as every other CL 7 effect (or whatever the bottle says it might be).

Pure casters do need some help in playability, but that help is nothing mentioned here yet. Monsters have been "over-balanced" (especially toward the endgame) to the point where throwing spells at them is inefficient to the point you might as well have used those spell slots for buffs to your party since then you'd at least be getting something for your trouble. Most "epic" yard trash monsters have such high save mods across all 3 saves that a pure caster who's invested heavily in their casting stats and bought up on focuses is going to start thinking they wasted a whole lot of feats to end up settling on being a buff dispenser.

MightNMagic wrote:

Potion CL for non-casters has been fixed ages ago, so you're harping about nothing there. It's as dispellable as every other CL 7 effect (or whatever the bottle says it might be).

I don't know about you, but none of my potions are ever dispelled on my melee characters.

MightNMagic wrote:

Most "epic" yard trash monsters have such high save mods across all 3 saves that a pure caster who's invested heavily in their casting stats and bought up on focuses is going to start thinking they wasted a whole lot of feats to end up settling on being a buff dispenser.

That's part of what we'd like to address.

Naivatkal wrote:

MightNMagic wrote:

Potion CL for non-casters has been fixed ages ago, so you're harping about nothing there. It's as dispellable as every other CL 7 effect (or whatever the bottle says it might be).

I don't know about you, but none of my potions are ever dispelled on my melee characters.

MightNMagic wrote:

Most "epic" yard trash monsters have such high save mods across all 3 saves that a pure caster who's invested heavily in their casting stats and bought up on focuses is going to start thinking they wasted a whole lot of feats to end up settling on being a buff dispenser.

That's part of what we'd like to address.

Naivatkal is my best mate on the matter.

Also, I didn't check for all available potions, but Protection Against Negative Energy aka Bubbly potions are -not- removed by Mord. That remains the same from ages since last I played here.

I don't care much about epic monsters, but it would be fair a small chance for a Bigby for example to grab one (1-4 changes on rolls). But epic monsters you could deal damage spells for example if you're allowed to rest before an epic boss. Otherwise, casters in general are more supportive but they are a win if you're in the middle of a PvP or DM plot or event. Again, I'm not asking for a mage to be uber, but a fair chance to disable or crowd control. And that's why I think bonus DC for pure classes would help on that. But see, all pure classes not only casters.

Having several mages, and several non mages... I don;t think mages are underpowered at all, they just have no options. DC based mages are pretty awful, due to insane saves in late game dungeons, and immunities. But ones focused on non save spells are just fine. As for pure builds... Well, they're all pretty much subpar compared to multi-class versions, not just mages. Still more variety than a Bigby, IGMS, Ice Storm, buff bot mage would be awesome.

And yeah, never had my potions removed from dispells.

From someone the only use to play a wizard, they are by no means underpowered. Like all classes and dungeons a dragons as a whole one class is great, but multiclassing has huge benifits that generally out weigh single classing. If you think your level 30 wizard should be stronger do a DC request and make your wizard stand out n prove why a level 30 wizard is better than a xyz wizard.

As i recall, caster level for potions is set at the users highest CL, or if they have no CL, its character level. So 30 Wizard has CL 30 potions, 4/26 Pally/Sorc has a CL of 26 for potions. An AA with 1-2 levels caster for access to AA has a CL of 1-2. A lvl 30 fighter has a CL of 30. This is for the SR mind, not duration or other effects.

I've always felt there should be a bigger reward for pure characters. It would not be the same for all classes mind, so a Pure Wizard might get something small, maybe a cool item, or a feat, or something. While a Pure Rogue or Ranger might get HiPS or something. But that's because i play a pure caster, and cry about being beat up by lvl 1 monks with KD. Someday i will just break and take that damn ranger level, tell then, i look down my nose at you! Yes you!

Might N Magic, i'd say you are more or less right, most people don't walk around with all their saves at 40 most of the time, in theory if you know you are going up against a mage you can dump your AC down and stack higher saves, or immunities. When i point out that i'd like to see a few things changed like remove freedom and removing IE (downgrade the items to Evasion) so that it makes some spells actually useful, i also want other spells to be toned down. This thread was about pure builds though, not really balancing magic. But its late, and i ramble when it's late, so here we go. I would not change the Instant Death spells at all, leave them as they are, and they will usually not work, it's fine, if you could count on them they would be overpowering. "But DEATH WARD WANDS BATMAN!" No. Stop it.

What would i like to see? Well how about more BoT pages? Off the top of my head i've considered a few. For Finger of Death have a page that turns the spell into a fort save vs X Negative damage. It would function as a single target sort of Wilting, fort for half, useful for healing Cory in a pinch too. Wail of the Banshee page that changes the spell to deal X Sonic Damage, with a Will save to resist a Stun effect. Stun could be 1d4 rounds or something, maybe tack a Reflex to the Sonic, and a Deafness effect in there too. For Imposlion it could have a page that makes it deal X Crushing Damage. But while id like to see these things added so we see a wider use of spells, id also like to see some spells toned down. I don't even want to mention it, least the rally cry of NERF NERF carry just this part, and not the fixes to other spells, but yolo i guess. To start off id like to see Interposing, Forceful and the lvl 8 one pick up the same To Hit system that Grasping and Crushing uses. This means Interposing is not utterly without chance to resist, and is not super reliable when used from an item because the hit chance. Forceful would now be in the same boat, now with a hit chance. Furthermore, removing the Fort Save and turning it into the same grapple check for Grasping and Crushing, with the obvious final change being to reduce the duration of the KD effect to 1d4 rounds. For Grasping and Crushing it would be nice if the Grapple check could be retested every 3 rounds, so while powerful, people now get to try to break out of it a few times. The lvl 8 one can likely have the Conc check removed, as its pretty bad really. Fear, and really a lot of the other CC lock down effects like Hold Person, Stone Hold, could easily stand to have the durations reduced to 1/3 CL rounds. But while doing all these things, bring other spells up to par.

Really at the end of the day, it's not that bad, and we don't likely have the staff to undertake such a large task and do it right i'm afraid. Makes for good conversation though yes? ♥♥♥♥♥

Xenos wrote:

I've always felt there should be a bigger reward for pure characters.

This.

Not just for pure casters. For pure anything. Especially pure (20 levels) PrC.

Last edited by DukeDublin on Tue, Dec 29 2015, 16:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Always got confused at how easy it was to use high CL spell scrolls like Summon Creature IX. With the right items you could use those scrolls at an obscenely low level, just past orcs in ECL.

Not every spell scales with CL either, the scrolls or multiclass casts of those are equal to pure casters.

Dead wrote:

Not just for pure casters. For pure anything. Especially pure (20 levels) PrC.

I agree. I think the 'epic class' feats you get for hitting 20 in some of these classes (or 28 for base classes) could/should provide a better innate bonus. I'd say 30 for base classes but it seems to me that skills like tumble are sort of mandatory because of how they work.

Bards and monks do pretty well when single-classed, and a pure caster can still get on well enough by hiding behind summons, but yeah.

Larsaan wrote:

Bards and monks do pretty well when single-classed, and a pure caster can still get on well enough by hiding behind summons, but yeah.

Yeah, but if there's going to be a bonus for pure-classing it has to be at least better than 6 ac all the time no matter what that stacks with everything.

I think it would be better to give the bonus to everyone and work under the assumption that basically every caster has 2 levels of a non-caster for UMD/Tumble/Disc, because otherwise you need to come up with something better then having those things otherwise people won't take it, and I'm sort of afraid of what that would be that's so good it beats 6 ac/umd/being able to resist a knockdown sometimes instead of never being able to resist a knockdown.

Not every pure caster has an epic summon to hide behind and that's not worth honestly if you can spot and kill the caster like butter. The reason I suggested to boots the DCs for pure casters was to avoid hitting more status, more immunitys (seriously?Immunity to KD), but a bump on the DCs. That would work good on Stun attack and all those who actually rely on DCs.

Dead wrote:

Not just for pure casters. For pure anything. Especially pure (20 levels) PrC.

Did not even think about the 'pure' build PrCs.. given in their nature they require 10 levels of other stuff. But yeah, i suppose giving them a bone too would fit.

DukeDublin wrote:

Always got confused at how easy it was to use high CL spell scrolls like Summon Creature IX. With the right items you could use those scrolls at an obscenely low level, just past orcs in ECL.

Not every spell scales with CL either, the scrolls or multiclass casts of those are equal to pure casters.

I think i recall doing a rebuild on a char, where i saved up a bunch of Summon 9 scrolls first, so that i could just follow a super summon around for a few hours. I THINK it has been changed though, and now there is also a level req to use higher level scrolls, not just the UMD/caster.

Larsaan wrote:

Bards and monks do pretty well when single-classed, and a pure caster can still get on well enough by hiding behind summons, but yeah.

Yeah, some classes do better than others, that's why the bonus for going pure should not be the same for all. The idea is to make 30 Sorcerer more appealing than the obviously 100% superior 29/1 Sorc/Ranger, for example.

Another thought i had, that won't be popular i suppose, that would make pure build vs power build vs rp build thing fairly moot would be to unlock most skills for all classes. As it stands, most everyone that wants AC is going to tumble dump, heck, the NPCs are balanced with it in mind. So instead of building a char that is 29/1 for skill dumps, we can unlock skills for all classes. Now that person can go full 30 if they want, while still having their 33 tumble. Now we can have a well disciplined Wizard, without him being required to dip into another class for cheese skill dumping. When i've talked about this before there was fuss about it being a nerf to rogues, the skill masters. My counter to that is a rogue is still going to have the most points per level to work with in theory.* But this would open interesting options, like a Dancer being able to have perform, a rogue that not only has UMD, but Spellcraft to further emulate their mastery of faking it. A master of the forge that can take Craft Weapon, Armor, and Spellcraft. There may be some skills that REALLY don't fit some classes, but a great many of them seems like they should be open to any character that wished to pursue these skills. Oh.. UMD on a Cleric of Mystria.. or UMD on a Wizard? Yes.. yes i would like my Wizard to know how to use MAGIC devices please.

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The bonus for a pure level 30 Fighter would have to be absolutely bonkers...

That said, how would you make this balanced for races with ECL adjustments? Other than just removing the ECL limitations, which I personally would be perfectly fine with...

Xenos, I understand your ideas, but if you want to build an RP build like I did in the past, investing uber skill points on Persuasion for a cleric (and sadly a few DMs didn't fly that well with the idea during my RPs), then it's fine. But unlocking skills like allowing a pure wizard to have enough points on discipline would be a terrible idea. It would be like allowing wizards to become fighters-like. It's the same as allowing rogues and or fighters to use spells, as fighters being able to cast deadly spells like a mage, but when a mage runs out of spells, the fighters will just punch his face off.

Each class has a drawn back and I don't mind casters with low discipline. But since DC casters will face freedom on items and tons of potions they're not able to remove, well perhaps +3 points in their DCs may help them to fish for 1-3 instead of 1. That's my only suggestion for pure classes to give a bonus on +3 on their DCs. Maybe just casters to begin with. And when I say pure it's all one class no Prestige classes allowed.

krot wrote:

Each class has a drawn back and I don't mind casters with low discipline. But since DC casters will face freedom on items and tons of potions they're not able to remove, well perhaps +3 points in their DCs may help them to fish for 1-3 instead of 1. That's my only suggestion for pure classes to give a bonus on +3 on their DCs. Maybe just casters to begin with. And when I say pure it's all one class no Prestige classes allowed.

Most people that I see boppin around have an unbuffed 40+ to the saves that matter and improved evasion. A +3 isn't going to cut it.

Larsaan wrote:

The bonus for a pure level 30 Fighter would have to be absolutely bonkers...

That said, how would you make this balanced for races with ECL adjustments?

If it's some kind of feat pack or maybe something you can apply to an item then it can be applied to ECL races via DMs, while maybe being automated more common lvl 30 chars. It should not be that hard to work around if such a thing were added.

krot wrote:

Xenos, I understand your ideas, but if you want to build an RP build like I did in the past, investing uber skill points on Persuasion for a cleric (and sadly a few DMs didn't fly that well with the idea during my RPs), then it's fine. But unlocking skills like allowing a pure wizard to have enough points on discipline would be a terrible idea. It would be like allowing wizards to become fighters-like. It's the same as allowing rogues and or fighters to use spells, as fighters being able to cast deadly spells like a mage, but when a mage runs out of spells, the fighters will just punch his face off.

Each class has a drawn back and I don't mind casters with low discipline. But since DC casters will face freedom on items and tons of potions they're not able to remove, well perhaps +3 points in their DCs may help them to fish for 1-3 instead of 1. That's my only suggestion for pure classes to give a bonus on +3 on their DCs. Maybe just casters to begin with. And when I say pure it's all one class no Prestige classes allowed.

Oh i do, he has max Listen and Spot because he is an elf, and has some experience doing tracking stuff so it felt right, max tumble as well. That's 90 something points for which i only get half value, which for listen and spot adds up to dick. In theory a DM could look at the investment and make a choice based off of that, but it's never come up. You say unlocking skills would let Wizards be fighter-like, but you are missing the fact that if you go lvl 30 Wiz/Sorc/whatever you don't get all the bonus feats. A wizard or a sorc with max disc is so very far from a fighter, hell, Sorcerers still would not go to 30 even if this was added in, because the 1 level of ranger, or bard, or whatever, gets them bonus feats for armor.

Seriously, sell me on the idea of going 30 sorc, instead of 29/1 sorc/ranger. Make me believe. Because as far as i can see it is 100% better all the time, no matter what. The only time it might be different is if something has SR. If you try and tell me all the flexibility that ranger level gives is not as good as 1 CL though i'm going to look at you funny. As far as i can see, dipping that one level for free feats and skills is a no brainer and even if skills were unlocked, it would still be a likely choice save it might be 1 lvl of fighter instead.

The issue with the +3 to DC is, well, its just going to be to much i think. There are folks out there with 44 Cha.. that means dc 42, with the +3 it would be DC 45. A char with high con might have the fort, clerics and druids might have the will and rogues and such will continue to not care about reflex. But DC 45 wail dropped in the mid of a group means 75% of them just died. DC 45 Weird set to Fear to attack their will? No chance. It would be to much. Now what i would like to see is more spell slots, personally. I would just adore more spell slots.

AirPhforce wrote:

Most people that I see boppin around have an unbuffed 40+ to the saves that matter and improved evasion. A +3 isn't going to cut it.

I dunno about that man, with a max of +20 to saves for most cases i don't think 40+ is all that common. On Fort perhaps, you want to live at 40 fort to survive the instant death stuff out there. But Will? Not going to be 40+ unless it is Druid or Cleric, or some Wis build. Reflex is commonly high because dex builds are king of the ring atm. I think what is more likely is high Fort as a focus, high reflex/will as a build result, and the other save counts on IE or Mind Blank. The only people i know with all three saves over 40 are cha paladins, and maybe someone that goes high in BG. Their Divine Grace/Dark Blessing lets them push saves well beyond that normal 20 cap. But i guess their paying a big price too so whatever.

Yeah, but it means anything targeting fort is practically useless because pretty much everyone hits 40+, as you said, to not die to death stuff. You can just buy improved evasion at like any time or grind for a ring, so basically anyone who has a clue is at max half damage for reflex. And will? What even targets will? Not to mention mind-blank potions.

Oh and PvE? It was really disheartening to me when I finally got maximize spell on my druid and saw how maximized spells hardly put a dent in mobs.

Just my two cents.

AirPhforce wrote:

Yeah, but it means anything targeting fort is practically useless because pretty much everyone hits 40+, as you said, to not die to death stuff. You can just buy improved evasion at like any time or grind for a ring, so basically anyone who has a clue is at max half damage for reflex. And will? What even targets will? Not to mention mind-blank potions.

Wut?

I guess it's pun on the fact, that there is at least one armor, which is always available for buying and it has IE.

Murex wrote:

AirPhforce wrote:

Yeah, but it means anything targeting fort is practically useless because pretty much everyone hits 40+, as you said, to not die to death stuff. You can just buy improved evasion at like any time or grind for a ring, so basically anyone who has a clue is at max half damage for reflex. And will? What even targets will? Not to mention mind-blank potions.

Wut?

Vendor after the mini-gauntlet by maxx or whoever sells armor with imp evasion on it. Just go buy it.

I guess if you can't wear armor then go pound sand somewhere.

It should be mentioned is that the armour in question is a hide armour (base 3 AC) with no attributes other than the bonus feat, so it's not exactly an optimal pick for most people.

Now the ring, on the other hand...

Xenos wrote:

Oh i do, he has max Listen and Spot because he is an elf, and has some experience doing tracking stuff so it felt right, max tumble as well. That's 90 something points for which i only get half value, which for listen and spot adds up to dick. In theory a DM could look at the investment and make a choice based off of that, but it's never come up. You say unlocking skills would let Wizards be fighter-like, but you are missing the fact that if you go lvl 30 Wiz/Sorc/whatever you don't get all the bonus feats. A wizard or a sorc with max disc is so very far from a fighter, hell, Sorcerers still would not go to 30 even if this was added in, because the 1 level of ranger, or bard, or whatever, gets them bonus feats for armor.

I actually made the same statement a while a go and It was said its a drawback to play as a pure caster. But without the bonus for being a pure caster, this statement that its a drawback looks fallacy because what would be the drawback if you're 29/1 sorcerer for example? That argument made in the past just says that "the server won't touch pure casters because they're overpowered. The server will instead disable them for the sake of the other classes". Maybe I could replace pure casters with DC casters.

Xenos wrote:

The issue with the +3 to DC is, well, its just going to be to much i think. There are folks out there with 44 Cha.. that means dc 42, with the +3 it would be DC 45. A char with high con might have the fort, clerics and druids might have the will and rogues and such will continue to not care about reflex. But DC 45 wail dropped in the mid of a group means 75% of them just died. DC 45 Weird set to Fear to attack their will? No chance. It would be to much. Now what i would like to see is more spell slots, personally. I would just adore more spell slots.

I don't know actually if +3 DC would be that much. The considerable number of posters complaining about potions and feats on items tell me that DC casters are funny to play here. As stated once, they're solely buff dispensers. Which is not too bad you can't be awesome on everything. But to get pure casters or DC casters more balanced, really balanced to actually have a chance to at least protect themselves instead of casting GS to run away (doing GS nerfe), I think you rather add +3 DCs or you nerfe potions and feat on items.

The explanation that freedom on items helps to players to solo for gold is not valid because you get a group for that or you assume the risks. Or you buy items that cast freedom that can be dispelled by Mord.[/quote]

Larsaan wrote:

Now the ring, on the other hand...

... is an epic drop that is not really that easy to find. Not impossible, just not as easy.

Larsaan wrote:

It should be mentioned is that the armour in question is a hide armour (base 3 AC) with no attributes other than the bonus feat, so it's not exactly an optimal pick for most people.

Now the ring, on the other hand...

Both should, and hopefully will, be removed/altered.

Improvements for pure casters

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