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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 15 2019, 13:51 PM 

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I am not playing anymore, but still!..

Just a reminder that, if you're touching stuff while moving to EE, it might be a good idea to take a look at the mithal system - especially the cost of adding +5 enhancement to a weapon.

- A weapon has 4 to 5 mithal slots.
- Adding +5 enhancement to a weapon takes 4 mithal slots.
- Adding +4 enhancement to a weapon takes 1 mithal slot.
- Adding +5 AB, +4 enhancement and +1d6 dmg to a weapon takes 3 mithal slots.

As it is, it is incredibly brain damage level of dumb to put +5 enhancement onto your weapon, as you gain 1 dmg increase at the cost of 2 mithal slots (which could be used to put dmg bonuses onto it!).

I am not saying the entire system needs an overhaul.. but that +5 enhancement mithal cost is really stupid. Now, if that 4 mithal slot cost was to gain +6 enhancement, -MAYBE- we could have a case.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 15 2019, 15:54 PM 

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I think it was made that way because otherwise the DC gear isn't even a significant enough boost in power to ever be used for weapons. I'm personally not inclined to raise the power level by making it even easier to get such things.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 15 2019, 16:32 PM 

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... we also have too powerful stuff around anyways. Don't make it even easier.

Also +5 Enhancement Uniques wouldn't matter anymore either.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 15 2019, 18:47 PM 

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Way I see it is +5 enhancement should cost 2 mithal slots instead of 4 (like it does for +5 AC on armors). Then mithalled weapons could look something like:

One-Handed:
+5 enhancement
+1d6 sonic dmg
keen

Or

Two-handed:
+5 enhancement
+2d4 sonic dmg
Keen
Massive crit 1d8

In both cases, these weapons wouldn't be better than epic loot or DC items, nor would they be on-par. On the other hand, the current mithal system allows for a weapon such as the Crescent Silver Kama to look like this:

+4 enhancement
+1d8 vs evil
+1d6 sonic
Keen

That weapon is arguably stronger than the epic claw kama.. or at the very least, is equal (especially if we start adding greater magic weapon into the balance, trading the +4 enhancement for another bonus).

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 16 2019, 2:49 AM 

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It's fine as it is IMO.

The +5 on Epics and DC Requests should stay special no matter the mechanical side.

Hell in my opinion +5 shouldn't even exist but that's not going to happen.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 16 2019, 2:54 AM 



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Im personally hoping we buff soak as its utterly useless :lol:


 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 16 2019, 16:13 PM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
Hell in my opinion +5 shouldn't even exist but that's not going to happen.


I personally think having it cost 2 mithal slots is the best option, but removing it entirely would also be fine.

All I say here is that paying a flawless mithal for a +5 enhancement on a weapon for 4 mithal slots is dumb and could end up having new players waste their hard-earned flawless mithal for something that's not worth it because they simply didn't read / understood how the mithal crafting system works (or what items are available).

Edit: in yellow

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Last edited by Mushidoz on Tue, Apr 16 2019, 21:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 16 2019, 16:37 PM 



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A perfect mythal doesn't get you +5 though. Only Flawless does. And if a new player isn't going to get his hands on those.

I really wouldn't change it. Few people take it, and in my opinion it makes unique yellow +5s less useful. I mean, if it was literally tero work to just make +5 enhance impossible, I'd do that, but it wouldn't be that, so I'd just leave it as it is.


 
      
Yin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 16 2019, 21:36 PM 

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Main feature of +5 enchancement, over +5 AB +4 enchancement is the fact, that most magical effect with damage reduction (like premonition and similar, including those natural resistances of some monsters) does not protect from +5 enchancement weapons, while they do protect from the one with +5 AB +4 enchancement and greately reduce incoming damage. That is why the cost of it is so high.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 16 2019, 23:14 PM 

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Yin wrote:
Main feature of +5 enchancement, over +5 AB +4 enchancement is the fact, that most magical effect with damage reduction (like premonition and similar, including those natural resistances of some monsters) does not protect from +5 enchancement weapons, while they do protect from the one with +5 AB +4 enchancement and greately reduce incoming damage. That is why the cost of it is so high.

Wrong. AB defeats Damage Reduction.

+5 enhancement is the way it is because the system was made in 2006, long before extensive item power creep hit the server.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 17 2019, 0:31 AM 



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Currently every damage reduction/soak (not resistance eg 15/- slash) except flat reductions to all physical (such as Barbarian DR or Epic DR) gets completely ignored by any +5AB or +5 Enhancement weapon. This means all the spells such as Stoneskin and Premonition and items like the Ring of Prevention and Protection are actually utterly useless endgame except against PVE content that has less then +5 weaponry.

See - https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_reduction or https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Damage_reduction


 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 17 2019, 13:38 PM 

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Yin wrote:
Main feature of +5 enchancement, over +5 AB +4 enchancement is the fact, that most magical effect with damage reduction (like premonition and similar, including those natural resistances of some monsters) does not protect from +5 enchancement weapons, while they do protect from the one with +5 AB +4 enchancement and greately reduce incoming damage. That is why the cost of it is so high.


Tormak and Cat already corrected you on it, yeah.

This is why 4 mithal slots for +5 enhancement is really dumb.

For three mithal cost, you can have:

+5 AB (which pierces through DR the same as +5 enhancement)
+4 enhancement (so you receive +4 dmg vs +5 if you had enhancement)
+1d6 elemental dmg (so instead of +1 dmg, you receive 1 to 6 extra dmg)

This setup therefore allows you to have 1 or 2 mithal slots left compared to +5 enhancement that takes up all of your 4 slots in one go... and you have d5 extra dmg to boot.


If the current 5 enhancement for 4 mithal slot cost was changed to +6 enhancement for 4 mithal cost, then we could have a case for "maybe I'm gonna make myself an extra weapon", but as it is, it either needs to be removed (so people don't waste ressources on it), or changed to something like a +2 mithal slot cost instead of 4.

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Last edited by Mushidoz on Wed, Apr 17 2019, 13:41 PM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
Yin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 17 2019, 13:39 PM 

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I was certain that +AB only bypass DR only when used on gloves in unarmed combat, as in that case that +AB count as +Ench (not sure if it works only for monks this way or for everyone though). And I certainly remember In's damage was greatly reduced when she was fighting monsters with active premonition spell with her old +5AB +4 Ench swords.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 17 2019, 16:34 PM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
Yin wrote:
Main feature of +5 enchancement, over +5 AB +4 enchancement is the fact, that most magical effect with damage reduction (like premonition and similar, including those natural resistances of some monsters) does not protect from +5 enchancement weapons, while they do protect from the one with +5 AB +4 enchancement and greately reduce incoming damage. That is why the cost of it is so high.


Tormak and Cat already corrected you on it, yeah.

This is why 4 mithal slots for +5 enhancement is really dumb.

For three mithal cost, you can have:

+5 AB (which pierces through DR the same as +5 enhancement)
+4 enhancement (so you receive +4 dmg vs +5 if you had enhancement)
+1d6 elemental dmg (so instead of +1 dmg, you receive 1 to 6 extra dmg)

This setup therefore allows you to have 1 or 2 mithal slots left compared to +5 enhancement that takes up all of your 4 slots in one go... and you have d5 extra dmg to boot.


If the current 5 enhancement for 4 mithal slot cost was changed to +6 enhancement for 4 mithal cost, then we could have a case for "maybe I'm gonna make myself an extra weapon", but as it is, it either needs to be removed (so people don't waste ressources on it), or changed to something like a +2 mithal slot cost instead of 4.


Yes please, add more Powerful stuff. We don't already have an infestation of Demigods.

Seriously though, +5 Enhancement shouldn't be so easily obtainable, DCs and Unique Epics should keep that for themselves.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 17 2019, 22:29 PM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
Yes please, add more Powerful stuff. We don't already have an infestation of Demigods.

Seriously though, +5 Enhancement shouldn't be so easily obtainable, DCs and Unique Epics should keep that for themselves.


What more powerful stuff?

+6 enhancement? If all your weapon does is +6 enhancement, sorry, but your weapon's a lot weaker than what is already mithallable. Monks have +6 gloves available (AB only, but it bypasses DR the same), so even the mobs are likely balanced around that and the +6 enhancement wouldn't do you good. Four mithal slot cost for +5 enhancement on a weapon that can only hold 4 mithal slots is freaking bad. Even +6 enhancement it still is bad in probably 99% of the cases.

Or are you refering to having it cost 2 mithal slots instead of 4? As, if that's what you are talking about, this is still -much- weaker than epic drops and DC items (and even smart mithalled weapons).

Or were you confused and thought the example I mentioned wasn't something that's already mithallable?

I respect your point that perhaps +5 stuff shouldn't be easily obtainable (heck, I once said I considered the djinn to be a cheap way to power, so I can totally relate to that sentiment of not spreading too many end-game stuff about so easily), but saying that it'd add "more powerful" items around is just plain wrong. It wouldn't add more powerful things, it'd just make completely shit items considerable until someone gets their hands on the real end game items (namely DC items and epics).

Mithallable weapon A: +5 enhancement

Mithallable weapon B: +4 enhancement, +5 AB, +1d6 sonic, Keen

Mithallable weapon C: +1d6 sonic, Keen, any status effect or special stuff (like the 1d8 vs evil kama), vamp rege or mass crit

Mithallable weapon D: Any variation of B and C that would have special bonuses AND +4 enhancement / +5 AB

Truestrike weapon E: +4 enhancement, +5 AB, +1d10 dmg, keen

Other recent epics F: They are all different, come with bonuses and status effects harder to get and have +5 enhancement.

Suggested change 1: +5 enhancement, +1d6 sonic, Keen

Suggested change 2: +6 enhancement

Option A -> Totally outclassed by every options listed above.
Option B -> Easily available right now with the use of a perfect mithal (to add +5 AB)
Option C -> Obviously for someone with innate access to +5 enhancement.
Option D -> Easily available right now with the use of a perfect mithal (to add +5 AB)
Option E -> Need to use a greater mithal for the +4 enhancement (to gain 4 dmg)
Option F -> They are all different.. and they're usually stronger than most options above (with exceptions)
Suggest1-> One dmg stronger than option B, stronger than A, weaker than everything else.
Suggest2-> Stronger than option A, weaker than everything else.

So basically, the only "more powerful stuff" resulting from this is when comparing Suggestion 1 to a regular mithalled weapon that is not optimal and has no special bonus (such as 1d8 dmg vs evil or a status effect).

I did these examples for 1 handed weapons, but it'll be the same kind of scenario with 2handed weapons.

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 18 2019, 0:18 AM 

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+5 DC weapons shouldn't even be a thing if they can't be mythalled as well. +5 Enhance being 4 powers was (imo) to offset the ability to get it without requesting a DC weapon. Honestly if you want a good weapon with +5, get a DC weapon.

But really the power creep needs to be toned down. I never really liked it, part of why I never requested DC gear (I think my only DC mechanic is the Mass Death Ward spell I got for Salema). DC gear kinda irks me and I think it should only be marginally better than mythal gear. DC-fluff stuff should really come down to character modifications, PLCs/etc, and spells.

But I'm also a minority in that opinion, I think. Always have been. People want their shiney's.

Mushidoz wrote:
Or are you refering to having it cost 2 mithal slots instead of 4? As, if that's what you are talking about, this is still -much- weaker than epic drops and DC items (and even smart mithalled weapons).

Standard one hander epic is (unless something changed) +5 enhance, 1d10 dmg, keen (so bonus damage is +6-15). Standard mythal one hander is +5 AB, +4 enhance, +1d8 dmg, keen (bonus damage being +5-12). Not counting criticals the damage difference is +3 total with the same crit range and ability to bypass DR. The biggest difference is epic weapons have physical damage vs the elemental you can mythal on, which is a nice bonus of course. DC weapons are usually akin to epics, though many request magic damage instead of physical.

I'd argue it doesn't make as big a difference unless you consider criticals. Elemental dmg can be mitigated but you have to have the right gear and not many do that (so glad the elemental ring change was made years ago). Course my mechanics are probably rusty, too, since I'm going on a couple years old memories hah. Totally prepared to be told I'm wrong!

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Guardian
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 18 2019, 0:59 AM 

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It's not about shineys.

It's about creating at least some balance between meleers and spellcasters.

Even now a slightly more skilled spellcaster will dominate against meleers. The +5 weaponry offset things like Premonition and GStoneskin which would otherwise be even more empowering the spellcasters in combat.

Also, I kinda disagree that only viable weapons are via. DC request. The new Epic loot bin contains some sweet, sweet +5 weaponry.

Should +5 EB price be reduced in mythal system? I really, really think that right now as it stands it would not be gamebreaking, and given there are some sweet +5 weapons in new epic bin I even doubt people with DC weapons would complain much.

That said - I think this may be a subject to ponder about in regards of EE. It's nothing THAT important to be solved asap or even in current Nwn (non-EE).

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 11 2019, 8:25 AM 

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The mythal system doesn't need to be on par with DM given loot and DC requested weapons. Balance wise it's an intermediary phase between them while still being plenty significant.

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