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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 05 2017, 6:32 AM 

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2 minor suggestions:

1 - Suggest that Smite Infidel work off of either CHA mod, or Div. Champ level, whichever is higher. I know this doesn't have basis in basically anything DnD, but the ability is also only one use per day. Right now, the class demands a lot of investment in it to get much use out of it, but also demands a high charisma investment to get anything out of it, which directly clashes which the classes that generally want to take it: Paladins, Rangers, Fighters, and Clerics. Other classes that might take it for RP flair are stymied by the lack of ability to use its class feature because they can't get enough Charisma to use it for more than 2 rounds. By making it take the higher of both, it lets it be used as an investment by high charisma characters dipping a few levels, or low charisma characters choosing to make a large investment into the class at the expense of other abilities.

2 - Make Div. Champ levels add to Cleric/Paladin/BG for the strength of Turn Undead. Turn Undead is already pretty weak on Amia, but diluting your Turn power more by taking an otherwise Divine Class is another kick to the stomach for no real reason. You could do the same for Divine Shield and Might if you wanted to, but generally you have so much of Paladin/BG/Cleric this isn't an issue. I'm struggling to think of any amazing powerbuilds that open by going like 2/3/4 pally or cleric or BG and lots DivChamp and it's just not coming to me.

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 05 2017, 7:15 AM 

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For #1 you are referring to duration of Purge Infidel? Damage bonus is still class level?

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 05 2017, 7:26 AM 

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That's correct.

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 05 2017, 13:35 PM 

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As for point 2, not necessarily disagreeing, but I think Turn undead needs to be changed in general on Amia if its supposed to be any good for anything outside of powering div might/shield. Only having the chance to maybe turn a single undead creature is generally not worth it to even consider wasting the action to even hit the button.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 05 2017, 16:48 PM 

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True but a pure build with planar turning from domains or the feat can get a lot of amusement from turning PC outsiders... Sadly it's only real use, outside of the odd undead boss that the DMs didn't level beyond reach of it.

It's a fine line though, buff turn undead too much and it can have drastic effects for the PCs that can be affected by it (Not that it shouldn't)

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 6:26 AM 

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Yeah, the problem wih buffing Turn Undead too much is a PC is only ever going to have 30 HD at most - and a PC can be Outsider pretty easily. It only takes being able to Turn one, there. I also think Clerics benefit a lot from the spell focus changes,and BG and Paladin are in a good spot in general now,to not need the buffs.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 17:46 PM 

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Good OP Tormark, agree on both points.

As another suggestion, any chance to get Turn Undead granted as a selectable or given feat for Divine Champion if Tormaks changes went through? Just for the rare cases where someone might actually want to get Planar Turning as a feat without taking levels in Cleric, Blackguard or Paladin?

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 17:52 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
That's correct.

Yeah, I like it. One use/day class feature will actually be usable and provides a benefit for those interested in a major level investment. It's rare to see much investment in this class.

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 20:14 PM 

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NAUX wrote:
Good OP Tormark, agree on both points.

As another suggestion, any chance to get Turn Undead granted as a selectable or given feat for Divine Champion if Tormaks changes went through? Just for the rare cases where someone might actually want to get Planar Turning as a feat without taking levels in Cleric, Blackguard or Paladin?


You sure you actually mean planar turning? The feat that requires you to have a base 25 wisdom, 25 charisma?

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 20:15 PM 

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Yes sir.

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 20:36 PM 

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That would create an entirely unplayable pc so I don't see why the time to do that would be invested.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 20:42 PM 

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Zen Archery for the WIS, CHA for the Purge Infidel, in addition to the strength of the Turn Undead? Those alone make it not unplayable. If you were to allow Divine Champ to get Turn Undead, you could take RDD levels to bolster other stats and still meet the 25/25 requirements.

Theres also the RP factor for players who wanted to make the investment to be a truly powerful and reputable remover of Outsiders, the scourge of Amia.

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 21:05 PM 

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Purge Infidel is only one time per day. And you won't be a powerful and reputable remover of outsiders because your CL will be too low to be relevant.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 21:10 PM 

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My suggestion was to allow Divine Champ to have access to Turn Undead only if Tormaks changes went through, which in that case, the CL of Turn Undead would actually be rather high on heavy Divine Champ build.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 21:11 PM 

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If you want Planar Turning you're better off just selecting the Good/Evil/Law/Chaos domains as a cleric - they're ubiquitous across gods, so it's easy to make it fit any concept. Maybe not a perfect solution, I guess.

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NAUX
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 10 2017, 21:14 PM 

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Oh for sure, in DC's current state, I'd run a cleric domain. I'm not even saying I'd want to play a character with Planar Turning, but I'm sure someone somewhere would want to, and having access to Turn Undead on DC would open a lot of doors for that player.

Also... got to get in on that juicy turning resistance (which the domain version does not get) :P!

"Outsiders normally add their spell resistance to their turn resistance, but when the turner has planar turning, they add only half their spell resistance."

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 11 2017, 2:13 AM 

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Personally, I think a simple and effective buff for divine champions to encourage a more 'pure' divine champion would be to add uses of divine wrath and/or purge infidel at 10, 15, and 20, making them 4/day at L20 divine champion.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 5:53 AM 

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That could work too, yeah.

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T0mc4t89
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 16:09 PM 



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Could give them infinite uses and have a cooldown like with the SD-abilities. The biggest issue with the class has always been the one use per rest - abilities, no matter how many DC levels you have. That way you wouldn't need to rest so much and still be useful in longer hauls, without having to think so much when is the good time to bring out the big guns and also making sure your charisma buffs are up for longer duration. Not also forgetting the 15 mins between rests - cooldown. Because the class feels so weak after using them till you rest again and rebuff.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 16:34 PM 

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^ This

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 20:16 PM 

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T0mc4t89 wrote:
Could give them infinite uses and have a cooldown like with the SD-abilities. The biggest issue with the class has always been the one use per rest - abilities, no matter how many DC levels you have. That way you wouldn't need to rest so much and still be useful in longer hauls, without having to think so much when is the good time to bring out the big guns and also making sure your charisma buffs are up for longer duration. Not also forgetting the 15 mins between rests - cooldown. Because the class feels so weak after using them till you rest again and rebuff.


just making it 3/day like paladin smite would be slick.

or cha mod/day.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 20:20 PM 

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A lot of this stuff is tied to the haks unfortunately buuuut talking with Sune I could set up the Divine Champion's ability to be cool down based exactly like the SD's Shadow Daze. That is all script based.

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T0mc4t89
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 20:22 PM 



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Awesome, both Divine Wrath and Purge Infidel?

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 20:32 PM 

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Potentially yes but we need to figure out the balance aspect of it first. Having both being unlimited might be a bit much if we dont get the timers well thought out.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 20:57 PM 

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Maverick00053 wrote:
Potentially yes but we need to figure out the balance aspect of it first. Having both being unlimited might be a bit much if we dont get the timers well thought out.


2200 seconds - 100 seconds for every DC level.

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T0mc4t89
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 20:59 PM 



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Both are currently single use only and the length of charisma modifier when used, no matter how much Divine Champion you have.

If you invest in the class, would be cool to have them both as cooldown as it would make the class much more useful between rests and not just single trick ponies.

Perhaps the more divine champion you have, the lower the cooldown?

2200 seconds is quite a lot, as you can rest every 15 minutes.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 21:00 PM 

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T0mc4t89 wrote:
Both are currently single use only and the length of charisma modifier when used, no matter how much Divine Champion you have.

If you invest in the class, would be cool to have them both as cooldown as it would make the class much more useful between rests and not just single trick ponies.

Perhaps the more divine champion you have, the lower the cooldown?

2200 seconds is quite a lot, as you can rest every 15 minutes.


yeah, 2200 seconds is a lot, but if you go hard into DC it's way faster.

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T0mc4t89
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 21:05 PM 



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With 10 DC it is still a 20 minute cooldown which is quite a lot.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 21:07 PM 

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T0mc4t89 wrote:
With 10 DC it is still a 20 minute cooldown which is quite a lot.


but you could go like 18 dc.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 21:13 PM 

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Or, hell, just copy this.

Quote:
The base cool-down is 5 turns (or 300 seconds). For every Shadowdancer level past 5, the cool-down is decreased by 3 rounds (or 18 seconds). For example, a level 10 Shadowdancer has a cool-down of 210 seconds. A level 20 Shadowdancer has a cool-down of 30 seconds.

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Gribbo
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 22:30 PM 



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Maverick00053 wrote:
A lot of this stuff is tied to the haks unfortunately buuuut talking with Sune I could set up the Divine Champion's ability to be cool down based exactly like the SD's Shadow Daze. That is all script based.

Whoa that would be awesome


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 22:32 PM 



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Gribbo wrote:
Maverick00053 wrote:
A lot of this stuff is tied to the haks unfortunately buuuut talking with Sune I could set up the Divine Champion's ability to be cool down based exactly like the SD's Shadow Daze. That is all script based.

Whoa that would be awesome


:O yeah

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 17 2017, 23:10 PM 

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That would be sweet.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 22 2017, 21:29 PM 

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Divine Champ gives -insane- saves bonus on top of giving loads of feats and it being forti + reflex(edited) as a base class (with very convenient requirements - not forcing you to take horrible feats like other classes sometimes do). It makes high fighter investment -almost- entirely useless. Why are you trying to buff one of the strongest prestige classes in the game? Am I missing something here?

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 23 2017, 4:25 AM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
Divine Champ gives -insane- saves bonus on top of giving loads of feats and it being forti + will as a base class (with very convenient requirements - not forcing you to take horrible feats like other classes sometimes do). It makes high fighter investment -almost- entirely useless. Why are you trying to buff one of the strongest prestige classes in the game? Am I missing something here?


Gives fort and reflex (not will).
Gives 1 universal saves every 2 class levels which are subject to bonus saves cap (unlike paladin, bg, or and saves feats).
It does not however gain as many feats as fighter nor does it make it able to get qeapon specialization (though you may take the epic version).
Unlike fighter, you need to invest into charisma to get its bonus damage, and it only works once per day.
Unlike paladin or bg, that charisma cannot be used towards dovine might or divine shield.
It gains no immunities like other classes do (through feats or spells).
The only skill it grants beyond fighter is spot. It does not get taunt, tumble, or UMD.
It isn't one of the strongest vlasses, it just makes up for how shitty fighter is by granting some saves.
Its only use is in monk or rogue (or dragon shape) builds who don't need a boost to their raw damage, but do benefit from the saves and extra feats.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 23 2017, 6:00 AM 

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Akhlys wrote:
Gives fort and reflex (not will). Edited (still great)

Gives 1 universal saves every 2 class levels which are subject to bonus saves cap (unlike paladin, bg, or and saves feats). Does not require to take a feat, gives you extra combat feats that allow you to take more general feats (like further save bonuses if you want) AND does not require you put charisma to make use of said bonus.

It does not however gain as many feats as fighter nor does it make it able to get qeapon specialization (though you may take the epic version). That's all fighter gives compared to this class - Weapon specialization (the non epic variant). This is at the cost of loads of bonus saves (which equals to A LOT of free mythal slots in the worst case scenario).

Unlike fighter, you need to invest into charisma to get its bonus damage, and it only works once per day. Unlike fighter you gain good base save progression on top of insane bonus to saves.

Unlike paladin or bg, that charisma cannot be used towards divine might or divine shield. Except the class can very easily be mixed with paladin, further solidifying powerful characters

It gains no immunities like other classes do (through feats or spells). Can't do everything, eh

The only skill it grants beyond fighter is spot. It does not get taunt, tumble, or UMD. Don't care to be honest. It's a prestige class that's very easy to mix / add to most other classes (mechanic-wise, I mean), a prestige class that has very little prerequisites too

It isn't one of the strongest classes, it just makes up for how shitty fighter is by granting some saves. "Some saves" is reason enough to pick this class and make it stand out, in my opinion. It isn't just "some saves", it's the difference between wearing a +5 forti cloak or a +5 AC cloak (with 10 levels, I mean). It is simply incredible at what it does. It'd be like saying "weapon master only gives some damage in the end..." :p

Its only use is in monk or rogue (or dragon shape) builds who don't need a boost to their raw damage, but do benefit from the saves and extra feats. It's good on pretty much everything that can afford it.


Saves and feats, to me, more than justifies the power of that class. Everything else is icing on top of a cake that's too good to be true. Quite honestly, I do not think Purge Infidel is even needed on that class. It gives saves and gives crapload of extra feats. That already is insanely good. Especially at what little investment it requires to unlock the class. It is also a class which can give you five epic feats...

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 23 2017, 6:43 AM 

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It's a martial class. Martial classes kill things with attacks. Saves do not help you kill things.
The only thing that increases its killing potential is a shitty feat that lasts 5 out of every 150 rounds.

vs other martial prestige classes

assassin: very high damage, cc, stealth, invis, umd, traps
rdd: ab, damage, ac, health, dev crit dc
wm: ab, increased modifier, increased threat range
bg: buff from spells, a summon with four extra attacks, aura that increases dev crit proc chance or other ally DCs

It's comparable with dwarven defender, but that class at least can tank and out last its enemies in most cases.

Show me a martial build without 9+ monk, 13+ rogue, or 18+ druid where champion of torm matters. Most probably don't even get more than four levels of it. CoT is basically fighter but you trade a feat for saves. And guess what, neither of those classes are good. Both are auxiliary to the classes that are actually important (monk, rogue, the four prcs listed, or a caster class.)

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 24 2017, 1:22 AM 

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Divine champion with it's feats and saves bonus makes for a rather strong class to include on a build, the purge infidel and divine wrath are icing on the cake. If it can be fit in it's a trade with fighter on saves against damage, most of the time, and the saving throw bonuses are not insignificant. Several strong builds splash divine champion, (a lot of clerics do, bards can do it, paladins, and others.)

The thing about Divine Champions though is that unlike most classes, the utility of taking levels actually decreases in epic levels. The feat progression slows from one per 2 levels to one per 4, so taking levels in other classes is usually a better option. If you want to give a buff to divine champions, it should be to those who invest in the class heavily. Builds with 6 to 10 divine champion but no more are strong enough already, I think.

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ILoveIceCream
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 10:12 AM 

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rogue/sd/divine champion with epic dodge is unkillable

that being said thats probably the only version of the class thats unkillable and that version wouldnt have the charisma score to make the best out of the changes suggested. I could see a small buff making other versions more viable cool. As of right now I dont even bother hotkeying the divine champion abilities on my rogue/sd/divine champion to begin with.


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 11:11 AM 

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No it's not. You have good saves but a wizard who knows how to time their shapechange/timestop combo will kill it in a couple of rounds before it can act. It's definitely a solid build but "unkillable" is just a silly over statement.

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ILoveIceCream
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 12:37 PM 

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you should be able to survive a direct greater ruin/hellball timestop combo hit with your hp and unless shapechange has been buffed during my absence I dont see how thats possible for any of the forms to take on a 60+ac epic dodging divine champion in a few rounds.


 
      
T0mc4t89
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 26 2017, 22:32 PM 



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Bump

Any news/progress concerning Divine Champs getting some love (like their Divine Wrath/Purge Infidel getting general cooldowns instead of single use)?

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 22 2018, 7:52 AM 

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T0mc4t89 wrote:
Bump

Any news/progress concerning Divine Champs getting some love (like their Divine Wrath/Purge Infidel getting general cooldowns instead of single use)?

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 04 2018, 18:00 PM 

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I think the cooldown on Purge and Wrath would be a neat idea, reducing the cooldown based on Divine Champ levels. Or maybe get to cast some divine spells like a blackguard. Divine Champ is a solid class but only up to level 10, there's little incentive to take epic levels in it, unlike other prestige classes.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Thu, Nov 08 2018, 18:40 PM 

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How about some ability increases at epic levels sorta like Dragon Disciple, +2 Charisma bonus at Divine Champion levels 14, 18, and 20. To better represent their god as one of their champions.

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Thu, Nov 08 2018, 20:43 PM 

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Joined: 18 Oct 2016

Meh. I’m totally hoping for Tormaks #1 suggestion or some sort of scaled cooldown on purge infidel, divine wrath, or both for exactly the reason you state - there’s literally no incentive to take more than 10 levels of this class. Taking more levels of this class makes you LESS of a Champion.

Ability boosts are cheap and cheesy, just like Dragon Disciples.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Fri, Nov 09 2018, 1:04 AM 

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Joined: 09 May 2010
Location: Canada Ontario, GMT -5

I play a dedicated Divine Champion with 18 levels of DC because I don't feel that the Blackguard is a proper representation of a divine warrior, unlike the Paladin. Just take a minute and look at all the prestige classes, the epic Assassin, the epic Blackguard the epic Shifter, everything got a major upgrade except for Dwarven Defender and the Weapon Master which deserves more of a nerf than a buff. Divine Champ had their Smite Evil swapped for Purge Infidel, nice but felt more like a starting point for further changes. It's been over a year since Tormak started this thread with most of the feedback being about making builds to "Turn" players. I just don't understand why there is little to no interest in making the epic Divine Champion epic.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~


 
      
Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 5:15 AM 

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Joined: 17 Dec 2015

I will say, aiming this more towards Draco's post. The biggest limitation for editing the Divine Champion over the past year has mostly been three major factors:

A: We've been currently working on rebuilding the Developement team. As around the time Tormak posted this thread the Development team was rather, vacant. So it's been slow going getting us all up to speed and making people 100% qualified by either garnering people that know what they are doing or teaching those interested that aren't.


B: The edits to the Divine Champion and the way they function are mainly inserted deeply within the .hak packs. Which, until relatively recently, none of us on the development team really understood how to pull apart and edit. As such making these kind of edits has been in the very back of our priorities list at the present moment. As well as the fact that any edits to the .haks means every player has to reinstall the .hak packs 100% each time an update for them is made. As such we strive to do them as far between as possible as to minimize the hassle on the playerbase.

C: Because the development team has been being rebuilt over the last year, a lot of bugs and issues have been piled up while there has been little manpower in which to fix them. As such, a decent amount of things have taken vastly higher priority than edits to the Divine Champion epics system.


I do apologize for the inconvenience. However, we are doing the best that we can with the little manpower that we have at the present in order to get a wide array of things accomplished, including discussing this.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar


 
      
Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 17:03 PM 

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Joined: 09 May 2010
Location: Canada Ontario, GMT -5

Awesome, thanks for the reply. That's mostly what I was looking for, just some acknowledgment that it is indeed being looked into even a little. I realize you guys got a lot on your plate and you're volunteering your time to make the Amia experience the best it can be. Not to sound like I don't appreciate what you guys do, I do. It'll take as long as it takes, I realize this, but we're not mind-readers.

_________________
~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~


 
      
thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 10 2018, 17:25 PM 

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Joined: 18 Oct 2016

Thanks for the response Angelis.

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