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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 2:49 AM 

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Tester

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Suggestion: Increase the Job Points given at creation by 6(9 total) and the maximum point cap to 36.

I believe increasing the cap will encourage more jobs to be taken, and thus pump more resources into the job "economy" and stocks. When the Job System was created, it was based around the idea that it would be pretty difficult to "assembly line" products, as you'll only get a decent percentage chance at success as you reach the higher ranks. You can try to do it on your own, but you're likely fighting a lot of 50% rolls, and in NWN, RNG is not your friend. The idea was that you'd have to rely on other PCs for your resources, encouraging trade and interaction for your doodads.

A few years since the creation, and it's all a bit more difficult than intended. With an admittedly smaller amount regular players since that time, it feels like most people that need resources are having to grab them from the refilling stocks of NPCs after reset. And if you happen to need an ingredient that's used in multiple jobs and items(Empty Pages, for example), you're pretty stressed to scrounge together enough for more than one or two attempts. That's assuming you get to the NPC first.

Increasing the cap would allow more characters to have more jobs and, hopefully, that means you'd be more likely to find someone that can produce the item that you need. Or if push come to shove, you can take an extra gatherer or converter Job and do it yourself. The cooldown on experience from jobs is universal, so there's no risk of making it any easier to level through the system, either. You'll simply have more options when you choose to use it.

A host of other bonuses for increasing the points given and point cap:

1. Decreases the level needed for mastery. A valid critique of the Job System is that you currently have to be a level 15 PC to be a master at a job. Wanna be an expert Baker? You better be able to run Minos. With the 6 additional points at creation, you can be a master at lv 9. Which makes sense for plenty of mundane jobs. The points also allow you to start as a Journeyman rank of any job, so a character who should have a background in something doesn't have to outright suck at it first, because they just got off the boat. And if you really want to make sure you get to create certain items, start 3 student rank jobs right off the bat. You'll at least have a chance of getting those multi-conversion items through your own means, even though it will still be more effective to find experts or increase your ranks, in the end.

2. Allows dual Mastery. You can be a master Weaponsmith and Armorsmith at max, now. Or a Fletcher and Bowyer. Or any number of combinations that obviously make sense. If you want to be really skilled at doing only two things that are probably pretty related, you can have that option.

3. Shores up Job overlap. Related to point 2, but in the opposite direction. How likely is it that a Botanist knows absolutely nothing about Herbalism? Or that a Tailor is completely befuddled by the idea of Leatherworking? It's awesome that the original system incorporates so many different jobs, but there is a distinct lack of realistic overlap. The original system encourages you so much towards specialization that you end up with the situations stated above. A couple of extra job points allow players to flesh out their character a bit more with one or two low rank odd jobs that are related to their primary ones. If nothing else, they can make one of their current low jobs Journeyman rank, or take Trader in something related, and that also boosts the likelihood of job system interactions.

Edit:

An additional or alternative step that I thought of. One of the main drives towards specialization in Jobs is that trying to get any resource without the right job is a shameful 1-in-10 shot. While that makes sense for more complicated Job processes, it doesn't for simpler Gatherer jobs. And Gatherer resources are key to all the other jobs even being usable. So my second suggestion is as follows:

All Gatherer Job resources have a natural roll of 50%, even if the PC does not have the associated Job.

The percentages for Gatherer Jobs are changed as follows:

Student: 70% Success, 20% Bonus
Journeyman: 90% Success, 30% Bonus
Master: 100% Success, 50% Bonus

Succeeding at Gathering a resource without having the associated job still grants no XP or Gold, however.

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Last edited by Dark Immolation on Sat, Oct 21 2017, 22:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 19:24 PM 

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Joined: 08 Oct 2012

+1 to that.

Edited to remove message born from lack of knowledge! :)

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Last edited by Mushidoz on Mon, Oct 30 2017, 16:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 19:39 PM 

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DM

Joined: 28 Aug 2015

Well, imo a good chunk of jobs should simply be consolidated. The chance of anyone actually taking any of the "intermediate" jobs are extremely small.

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Zaldra5
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 20:32 PM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
+1 to that.

Also, wasn't that tied to the character level too, thus making it so that some ECL races don't have as many points as other races? (not sure) Maybe if attention is given to it, that some of those restrictions (if they exist!) could also be removed somehow.


You start with three points and then get one per level till a max of 30, meaning everyone at max level gets the same amount of points regardless of ecl

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 22:02 PM 

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Tester

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Tarnus wrote:
Well, imo a good chunk of jobs should simply be consolidated. The chance of anyone actually taking any of the "intermediate" jobs are extremely small.


That'd be great too, but I believe the Job System script is pretty intense. We might have to reissue job logs for PCs with jobs that we alter or merge, and we'd have to also merge their workstation placables. Not saying that it couldn't be done, eventually, but even in the meantime more points ease many of the problems.

An alternative or additional measure might be to adjust the percentage rolls for Gatherer resources. It's not the "intermediate" jobs that I find to be lacking, it's those. So much of the system hinges on there being raw material. Plenty of people want to be Cooks, Brewers, Academic guys, Smiths, etc, but they depend on Farmers, Gardeners, Orcharders, Lumberjacks, and Miners being available. Those are the only guys that have better than a 10% chance of picking an apple from a tree. It's not worth it to try, unless you have the job. And so, unless you've got one of the gatherer jobs you need, for your stuff, you're relying on the reset stock. Which means one or two attempts at an item, per reset, by a single PC.

So yeah, either we give people a few extra jobs so they can take the Gatherer jobs themselves(hey, 50%'s better than 10%), or maybe we can adjust the Gatherer resource rolls to where people without the requisite job have a 50% chance already. That would make sense, too. Because really, how hard is it to pick a few damn mushrooms? Actually taking the Gatherer job could mean you have guaranteed success at max(rather than 90%), and an even bigger chance at Bonus rolls. Meaning if you're an expert mushroom-picker, you're still finding larger amounts and better quality 'shrooms than Joe Blow. But at least Joe has a reasonable chance to make some Spoorbread on his own, now.

Edit: I think I'll add that to the original post.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 22:34 PM 

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I personally dont want to edit the job script that much >.< It is a monster system.

But I am alright with increasing the point cap.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 23:06 PM 

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I've advocated for more points before so +1

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 23:30 PM 



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Tarnus's solution while better sucks for scripters, so go with Mavs :wink:


 
      
rafaelmacgyver
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 22 2017, 16:57 PM 

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Awesome Ideas, DI!!!

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DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 23 2017, 20:17 PM 

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Joined: 10 May 2015

We should up scribe chances universally while we're at it.

Everyone mashes copy/paste anyways.

Item descriptions =/= writing books!

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 23 2017, 21:37 PM 

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Joined: 08 Oct 2012

DukeDublin wrote:
We should up scribe chances universally while we're at it.

Everyone mashes copy/paste anyways.

Item descriptions =/= writing books!


I have scribe at mastery level on Saya <.<

It needs to be changed eventually (Saya is a much different character now) but just saying that not everyone mashes copy / pastes, no.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 23 2017, 23:40 PM 

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Most people, then, perhaps.

I'd be for it, simply because handing your items off to someone else to rename them kind of ruins the allure of giving your job items custom descriptions. I.E. I sometimes make the Gargoyle Mask from inventor and give it a pretty description and name describing it as a Hathran or Wychlaran mask. I don't care if I have to sit there and copy paste 100 times, that at least keeps the needed illusion of me actually making said Hathran mask, rather than making a Gargoyle mask and finding a Scribe to... somehow OoCly write all of what should already be obvious in the making of it.

I see the renaming function as feature of the Job System rather than an actual Job function itself. I'm all for Scribes still having an easier time of doing it, but the function itself is definitely something you're more likely to spam on your own, rather than outsource or even take Scribe to perform it better. That said, I'd be careful of expanding the scope of the suggestions any further. Job Points are golden, maybe we can get around to adjusting Gatherer rolls. Discussing other quality-of-life changes to the Job System might be its own thing.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 24 2017, 0:12 AM 

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I took one rank in Scribe just to have a better chance of inscribing my own bows when my character gets creative. Copy paste is my friend plus by writing it offline i can check the spelling and grammar to be certain it's as i want.

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DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 25 2017, 5:32 AM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
I have scribe at mastery level on Saya <.<

It needs to be changed eventually (Saya is a much different character now) but just saying that not everyone mashes copy / pastes, no.


The generalization was incorrect, my fault. The point was to mention that the "workaround" is OOC busy work for those who might use their job points elsewhere (which having more job points helps).

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 25 2017, 11:10 AM 

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DukeDublin wrote:
Mushidoz wrote:
I have scribe at mastery level on Saya <.<

It needs to be changed eventually (Saya is a much different character now) but just saying that not everyone mashes copy / pastes, no.


The generalization was incorrect, my fault. The point was to mention that the "workaround" is OOC busy work for those who might use their job points elsewhere (which having more job points helps).


To be fair I didn't see it meant in a bad way. Certainly for long bodies of text with description and even words I'm not sure on, I'll mash copy/paste. Given NWNs inability to side scroll the text bar, typing isn't always easy. Not to mention you can work out the length of text you can fit in before scribing so it doesn't look odd.

This said though, if I make something on the fly for someone and it isn't a massive, complicated description then I'll do it as I go rather than the old c and p mash!

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Hrothmus
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 2:44 AM 

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Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Location: Virginia

The Dev team is going to be deep diving on the job system here soon. Bumping this up for reference.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 5:00 AM 

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That makes me wince...

Don't get me wrong, I'd love more points, but please, please, please do not mess with it too much. Don't nuke it, don't alter it, don't remove it, don't cull it. :cry:

It's one of the ways that Amia is so much better than other servers in that it lets you flesh out your character beyond it's sheet.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 6:00 AM 

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We're not looking into how to further cull or nerf it. :P We just need to figure out how it works so we can do more with it.

My goal is to be a Job System guru.

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Hrothmus
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 15:03 PM 

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Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Location: Virginia

MightNMagic wrote:
That makes me wince...

Don't get me wrong, I'd love more points, but please, please, please do not mess with it too much. Don't nuke it, don't alter it, don't remove it, don't cull it. :cry:

It's one of the ways that Amia is so much better than other servers in that it lets you flesh out your character beyond it's sheet.


Oh no, we are not looking to cull or anything like that. Our main points of concern are 1) making sure the exp you get from the system makes leveling with the job system feasible (see at least somewhat competitive with hunting) but not abusable. and 2) making sure that job system point gain is standard regardless of ECL.

Those are the two angles I am looking at right now.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 18:32 PM 

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I have personally levelled a PC from 15 to 30 in probably less than an hour doing that. However, that required actual months worth of saving up on certain resources (It was something close to or around 1000 units of ore my character had refined) and that took me within an hour to fully level up, and that took another character previously mentioned months of work to collect all that stuff. It's not something that can be done whimsically, and requires more time to organise than actually hunting does, since the record for leveling through hunting is about three days.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 18:39 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Wouldn't that break the rebuild system, if I can level that quickly in an hour? At least the non-timed rebuilds? I'm not allowed to use DCs to rebuild, but couldn't I use my superior level 30 gold, resources and friends to get that amount of resources, then request said rebuild, and get myself right back to 30, even on a selfer?

(Just seems like "bugs" or "caveats" should be discussed -before- they occur, lol)


 
      
Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 18:55 PM 

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Sure if you put the months of preparation required to actually pull it off, dedicate 18 whole job points to a specific job, have enough gold to buy about a half a dozen to a dozen units of resources per reset (Depending on what job you're actually using).

You can get friends to help you, I guess. But the resources are once-per-reset, so the only real benefit of doing that would be so they could get the resources from in-game when you aren't able to log in yourself. Also it's not cheap to pull off.

For reference, it'd cost roughly 35-40k per reset to buy-out all approximately 40-50 ores the metal merchants supply of ore to refine. Given it takes something nearky 2,500 units of ore given the average XP rate of 180 for a master refiner for a standard roll to level from 1-30.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 20:03 PM 



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Ok. Just given your rough estimates, it'd take 2 mil to pull off the 2.5k resources. I concede my point.

Seemed easier when you said:
Quote:
I have personally levelled a PC from 15 to 30 in probably less than an hour doing that.

lol


 
      
Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 21:04 PM 

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That character had help from another PC who'd spend months gathering ore from merchants and PC miners. So it was actually your scenario that I managed to do that, but as I said, it's such a rare occurrence, and isn't so much of a mountain as it is a mole hill. I doubt there's that many players who play lately with that kind of investment in the job system to pull this kind of thing off again.

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PuresoulX2
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 21:55 PM 

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What about the more role play oriented jobs? Honestly, like engineer and preacher? I never really got any persistent use out of them. I've tried for years to at least see something built or made on engineer, everything just ended up dead in the water due DMs vanishing or whatever. Preacher could be waaay better. Granting limited time bonuses depending on the deity would help lower levels out.

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Last edited by PuresoulX2 on Fri, Sep 14 2018, 22:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
maglorine
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 22:11 PM 

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The cooldown times are brutal. Not saying they should be removed entirely but between the later access to master levels and the cooldown times you simply can’t justify using the job system for XP.

I’m not suggesting we go back to having the ability to level to 30 without ever leaving the safety of town but my opinion is that the balance swung too far when cooldown times were imposed.

For some jobs you just need to increase the XP gain plain and simple. Hunting jobs have you traveling around to dangerous maps where you might need to spend consumables to survive for minimal reward.

1). Adjust cooldown times
2). Increase XP gain for hunting and other low frequenc/high effort job types

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Hrothmus
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 14 2018, 22:21 PM 

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Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Location: Virginia

As I understand it, Cooldown timers were added after a large increase in the xp gain for job systems. I'm not saying that I feel it is currently balanced, but I suspect that simply removing them would swing things too far the other way.

Also, I used to use the preacher job all the time for RP. Worked out quite well for me.

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