AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As mentioned in the other thread, please keep it civil and constructive.

I think it is absolutely unfair that we don't have a DM on during my post-work hours of 0215-0430 US Eastern. While I understand that you may have lives and need to sleep I have some RP that is necessary. The only way I feel that this will ever be fair is if you make me the night owl DM and push through all my current requests with no further debate or work needed on my end.

Love,
Goose

Please don't take the above so serious. Yes, it would be nice to have DMs on at all hours. It would also be nice to have dated Raquel Welch. Such is life.

When it comes down to it, in the entirety of the time I've been playing here I have had one major incident of what I thought was complete horsehockey. The others that were impacted and I made our opinions known and nothing changed. The decision that was made was not justified in any way despite numerous requests to do so. The way it went down ran off some players for good, some for a time, and some not at all. Ultimately we had the choice to play with things as they were or to take our balls and go home.

The biggest problem I see with some players is that they never seem to be satisfied. Their posts are one never-ending hissy fit over things. They don't like this, they don't like that. Things would be so much better if you'd just listen to them yet they've never run a successful server of their own. They seem to exist solely for the purpose of ginning up a mob to say just how much the place sucks and yet they just won't leave. It brings to mind how a chronic complainer was handled by the late Herb Kelleher, once CEO of Southwest Airlines.

Quote:

One woman who frequently flew on Southwest, was constantly disappointed with every aspect of the company’s operation. In fact, she became known as the “Pen Pal” because after every flight she wrote in with a complaint.
She didn’t like the fact that the company didn’t assign seats; she didn’t like the absence of a first-class section; she didn’t like not having a meal in flight; she didn’t like Southwest’s boarding procedure; she didn’t like the flight attendants’ sporty uniforms and the casual atmosphere.
Her last letter, reciting a litany of complaints, momentarily stumped Southwest’s customer relations people. They bumped it up to Herb’s [Kelleher, CEO of Southwest] desk, with a note: ‘This one’s yours.’
In sixty seconds, Kelleher wrote back and said, ‘Dear Mrs. Crabapple, We will miss you. Love, Herb.’”

I think something to keep in mind too is that the DM team of the present isn't the DM team of the past. A lot of the current DMs saw a lot of the abuse that happened a decade ago and are very firmly against ever going back to it. We aren't perfect but if you have a concern and approach us respectfully, just as you wish to be addressed respectfully then we can move forward together.

Alas, indeed no one is perfect. Neither are we. Neither am I. We all make mistakes but I feel most if not all of them can somehow be amended if talked about.

Misunderstandings happen. Especially when all the communication is written, which leads to confusion am misinterpretation easily. The way something is written, may not be the way another person reads it. Our mind often adjusts the way we read something automatically to the mood we are in. If you give the same message to 10 people and ask them to read it aloud, you will likely have 10 different messages in the end. Not by word, but by the way it was said. Which parts were emphasized, the tone of the word flow... quick, slow, harsh, soft...

Additionally, we always only see the tip of the iceberg. We see a small window of what is going on. The person we are talking to may just have 20 more messages he/she needs to deal with. Or maybe someone just came into the room and distracted them so their answer is short and to the point. Not because you annoy them and not because they do not care for what you have to say but maybe because at that moment they were not able to say more. And maybe it is late and then you have to go and you miss the point later when they tried to explain.

All in all things sometimes are what they seem, but not always. And if bad situations happen we need to find out why. Or we say it wasn't so bad, I don't really care what the reason was, I am moving on. But if you choose this option, then please, do move on. Do not dig it up then 4 months later and suddenly toss it to someone's head "but back then you wronged me already!" when that person may not even have a recollection anymore of what transpired. If something bothers you enough that it needs clearification, no time as the present (or at least a timely fashion).

Especially in events with many people, things can get hektik. Many people do many things at once and all wait for an answer. There is a 'massive' amount of text, especially in DM chat, as we do also see all the party chats, the DM chats, the area chat.... so sometimes something flows by, you want to answer in a timely manner, and you misread something. Happened in my last event. I misread something and hence gave the wrong IC reaction. Not because I wanted to screw anyone over but simply because I misread. Alas I am not perfect either. :lol:

In such case, just approach the DM in question. If that person for some reason appears unreasonable, you are always welcome to call in another DM for a neutral opinion on the matter.

I'll chime in. Mav has a point. I left here a couple years ago, not only due to burnout, but also due to an event that occurred and well, I just didn't like how things happened. Enough said on that.

Over most of my time here, the DM's have been helpful, but I have to say since my return a few weeks ago, the DM team is more than helpful. They are what I think DM's should be... players, and guides. They're here to have fun too. So, when we complain about things, it disrupts their playtime as well.

Being a guide is so much better than being a god. As a guide, you're helpful, and everyone learns or gets something out of an interaction. Being a God, its just punitive.

I'd say, and I'm not just kissing ass, I've had the most DM interaction and most pleasant interaction (rp wise and things making sense wise, and even help wise) with the current team than most of my time here on Amia.

Fair? That's perspective. The Team gives us a sandbox, with defined boundaries, what we do within them is up to us.

I'm gonna pop in to agree with Guy. Over the past years, it was pretty much not a thing to get to know DMs and more often than not, people wouldn't even report whatever they disliked out of either fear or assumption that it 'wouldn't change anything'.
The current DM team, I've talked to pretty much each of them on a personal level, and they're always willing to not only help, but sort stuff out if there's a misunderstanding.
Though some things can be seen as unfair, it's ALWAYS best to approach the DM directly, they really don't bite!
I really love the current team. Even though I don't agree with all the IC changes, they have their reasons and are more than happy to explain their reasonings.

ucfgoose wrote:

Please don't take the above so serious. Yes, it would be nice to have DMs on at all hours. It would also be nice to have dated Raquel Welch. Such is life.

Raquel Welch! Good gods man your old School! LOL But who am I to say anything, I've always had a thing for my Juliet Olivia Hussey.

But to reiterate what That Guy and Madam Jingles is saying, this is one of the best Dm Squads we have ever had. Communication is good, requests are getting knocked out of the park, awesome new content keeps coming out and events galore. It's a great time to be an Amian!

I have had a rocky history with Amia since 2005. I still to this day think my ban was deserved but it was given over something that is "ancient" history in online gaming standards.
I still feel that thing could been done better. BUT, what I am coming to is that compared to then the DMs now are tons better.

I do have something I want to point out. A lot of the plots currently is pretty large scale and open for most people. Epic plots I like to call it. Do not hesitate to throw more niched, small events or short term plots with smaller groups. As a player, I love those and as a DM I would probably do that. This is not a critic of the events themself! Just "Hey you know, you can just toss something smaller! I am sure people love it too". Jes idea for personalized events was awesome! I hope that is not given up on.

I do agree that my plot is big and epic (my DM write-up even expands on the complexity), but I feel the need to point out that these larger plots are only happening in succession as they are because of our EE plans. I believe that once everything is sorted in that regard, we'll see many more small events. I'm looking forward to the smaller ones myself!

We do have some DMs who will be focusing on smaller events soon, too. Good things coming!

Jes wrote:

I do agree that my plot is big and epic (my DM write-up even expands on the complexity), but I feel the need to point out that these larger plots are only happening in succession as they are because of our EE plans. I believe that once everything is sorted in that regard, we'll see many more small events. I'm looking forward to the smaller ones myself!

We do have some DMs who will be focusing on smaller events soon, too. Good things coming!

Well! EE kinda gave us a lot of doomsday devices comnig

So I understand that! I hope that you DMs understand it is not hostility towards your plots!

But thats awesome!

Fairness...let's talk about that. I feel it is unfair that this DM Squad has to bare the Sin's of the Father. Bitter disgruntled folks who can not leave things in the past and continue to label and hold grudges are what cripples this server. It's a shame.

Toon Altness…while it's cool as hell to try new builds and explore options and diversity...I have been victim to this over the years myself trying to find my place, I think in the long run it hampers Rp and actually being a part of the story. Sticking to one Toon and putting in work you actually feel part of the world and that you can make some sort of impact. Making a new Toon, Rping it for a month or so hard core and expecting to change the world is ludicrous. Rinse repeat with a new toon. Dm Focus will always fall upon PC Anchors. PC's with A Toon that has been around for ages, the narrative will and should follow them. So I would suggest hunker down with one Toon and make a difference. Become a part of the story that is being weaved for us, roll with the punches and enjoy the ride!

Just my Two coppers.

I hardcore agree with Imp on that one.
The more alts you have, the less time you have to devote to just ONE and build them up. Not only that, but most anchor characters will never get to know your toons and become close to them, because while YOU are around most the time, I really rather not spend however long trying to get to know you're 50,000 toons in detail.
We've ALL had altitis... but pick a toon you like, and stick with it!
A great example of this would be Tuomas Valo, Kurchin, Triel'ithra, (and countless others over the years), who were around for a long time, and played consistently without alts, and they ALL have immense stories and have played important parts in plots due to their commitment.

Edit: Just to add - a lot of my complaints about 'fairness', is more in reaction to other PLAYERS. Not DMs.

Disagreed, it all depends on the player. To make an over-arching generalization or policy is generally useful, but it misses out on particular exceptions.

Some, like myself, have a hard time even focusing on one character, though I did use alts in the past to get a feel for up-and-coming factions that popped up when it looked like they were going somewhere. Others are fine at managing alts, so holding them back is not very useful at all.

waswar wrote:

Disagreed, it all depends on the player. To make an over-arching generalization or policy is generally useful, but it misses out on particular exceptions.

Some, like myself, have a hard time even focusing on one character, though I did use alts in the past to get a feel for up-and-coming factions that popped up when it looked like they were going somewhere. Others are fine at managing alts, so holding them back is not very useful at all.

I believe our intention is to offer advice, not outright ban alts. That'd be just mean.

It may seem out of nowhere, but it's worth mentioning here.

Please listen to this. Whatever you seen other characters do is only at face value to yourself. Unless you genuinely know, from an OOC side, that you've observed all of their actions to make judgement on things such as consequences, it's best not to let it consume you in to reacting OOC.

Some players play liars, some may have had to do secretive deals or perhaps something they aren't willing to inform you has taken place. If you ever feel characters haven't been punished for actions, then just talk to one of us. At the very most, we'll give you some vague answer of "We're aware of the circumstances and a punishment has been added" but to be completely honesty, most of the time it's not fair to these players to have us OOCly inform people of IC consequences just because they're not sure if actions were taken.

I can assure people, especially in relevance to my plot, players have had their dues to pay and their reasons at times to compromise. Their punishments are theirs to tell.

I'd like to ask why so many DM plots are focused on A when we have someone who asked for some help with some RP a month ago and hasn't gotten any word yet. It seems like the DMs could spread out a bit instead of all focusing on the main island.

The player in question has had a considerable amount of 1-to-1 DM time over the last few months, I've personally spoken with him on discord about it numerous times through august.

Apologies if those responses weren't public, hopefully a DM has the free time to focus entirely on one player instead of multiple soon.

As I was raised specifically, I felt the need to answer, especially to clarify some things said earlier.

But after writing the long post, I erased it after struggling for awhile should I post it or not. As I feared that it would involve too many details not to be shared in a public forum.

I think it is just disheartening that I cannot speak openly about this, due to fears of being "marked" and ostracised by people. And thus affecting my own enjoyment of the server even further.

I guess I've been having the same problem of struggling with whether or not to write anything. I guess I will just say a couple things, and keep it brief.

My experience since returning to the server has not been overly negative. Even though the size of the playerbase is much smaller than it was, there are a lot of things being done better. However, there is always room for improvement. And someone might say, well how can we improve if you don't tell us what's wrong? And if I get into it, I'm concerned it would make me look like a troublemaker, or someone who is just unable to be pleased, and that would cause problems for me. Am I judging the current DM team for the actions of the past one? Well, consider the phrase: Once bitten, twice shy. I thought the DM team of old were good people who only wanted what was best for the server, too. Maybe they were, maybe the problem is just human nature - and no forum suggestions are going to fix that.

Amia was my first server, where I have spent the majority of my time playing NWN. In fact, I've spent more time roleplaying on Amia than all my other online, and my RL tabletop gaming, combined (possibly. I'm close to 4000 hours on my main alone however). I didn't come back here just to complain about the negative. But it's just easier to talk about positive things because I know no one is going to be offended or angry with me. I guess the problem is that while the server is moving in a new direction, with a new atmosphere... the damage has already been done. That sort of thing is unavoidable when you have a long history like this. But, to end on a positive note, it was never enough to keep me away from the server for good.

My concern is that people are debating over what's fair for a game: means you're taking it too seriously. The less I care, the more enjoyment I get out of this.

Log on, roll dice, log off.

I think that Amia is fair for the most part and in general much fairer than most other social groups or interactions you might have in RL.

Generally, you only ever get back relative to the amount of effort or work you put into something. What do I mean by that? If you want to make new friends, past a certain age, you have to put in the effort and time to befriend people. Same goes with work, if you want better pay or a promotion, you have to put in the extra effort. On Amia you can get to a certain point without having to put in a great deal of work to get there. You can make friends, go hunting with them and have fun, come up with new fun alts to play together etc. Just being there ands howing up is enough.

HOWEVER. Once you want to make a lasting impact on the server, you have to put in much more work for that return, generally many times more than the return you get. But I still think that's fair because it's not just dependent on the DMs or Devs but heavily on the players, you involve as well and something that holds true in all aspects of real-life and social interactions. You have to go the extra ten miles to keep everyone interested in going the extra 1. To keep them focused and keep coming up with things to do so that you avoid stagnation. This generally comes in the form of sticking to one character for a considerable amount of time to build up their recognition and social status with people they want to influence, for players. This also means that you have to be consistent and keep things going for long enough to show that it's not just the new flavor of the month but something that can stick around for a good while. Because if you can't do that, people aren't really ever going to get invested in what you're doing, it's just something that's here and now like a one-off event and then people move on.

But because of the shift to EE, right now the price for lasting impact is at an all-time low. I don't mean lasting impact as in "Hey I'm the king of the world" but as in setting the direction for a faction, group or city and influencing the path forward. Every player has a very real chance to help influence the direction of the server and it's cities and factions in a very real way right now, by participating and involving themselves in all the ongoing events and can try to manipulate them to go the way they want them to go. How big that influence is, depends on what sort of character you have, their reputation and status and a myriad of other things, but the opportunity is there. And if your character isn't in a position to exploit that, then you also have a chance to help build them up to get into that position of power by showing people who they are, what they are about and grow their own influence.

Generally in my own personal experience as a player, usually when people think something is unfair it's usually because they aren't willing or able to put in that extra effort to get there or because they haven't seen the work that's gone in to something that someone got. Now "getting there" is never a guarantee but by trying and trying until you succeed you greatly raise your chances of achieving what you want. It's when you give up and say to yourself that "fine, I didn't really want it anyway" or instead say it's unfair that you fail in reaching your goal. That everyone was biased against you and that's why it failed instead of putting the blame on yourself and think "how can I do better?". I know this because I've been guilty of it several times over with multiple characters over my 10+ years on Amia and in real life. I'd try something, fail and see others manage to do it and wrote it off to unfairness or bias or whatever at the time. I only really ever reached my goals when I kept on trying and avoiding past mistakes to get there, that I finally managed to reach my goals. This isn't meant as a criticism of anyone in any way, it's just my own experiences and advice on how to achieve what you want with your characters. Is there a guarantee? No, there never is in life, but unless you're overly lucky the only way to consistently get what you want is to keep trying. It's as true in RL whether it's in trying dating or work-related struggles or wether it's on Amia.

Why do I think that that's fair? Because everybody gets a chance to do it. When you start playing you aren't judged on anything but what you do, how you behave and treat people, what sort of characters you play etc. Everything you do in your interactions with people builds their opinion of you, there's no preconsisting bias. With time you help people build up an image of you as a person and respond to that. And I think that's what makes it fairer than RL. Still not completely fair, because people are people, but still fairer than most other social situations.

Agreeing with Gravemaskin, and also tacking onto the long-term character thing, almost every roleplayer will go through that period when it feels like everyone doesn't like you or want you involved. I've spoken this opinion of mine to a few who feel this is/has happened to them and they often feel it's unfair.
The sad reality is that that sort of reaction is heavily based on not only what your character does, but how you as a player handle things. People can misinterpret your intentions, naturally, as we communicate via text, but long term dislike isn't completely miscommunication.
There was a point on Amia that I felt targeted, disliked, and struggled a lot. This was mostly due to ME, how I was reacting and those who disliked me had valid reasons for it.
The only answer to solving this is to take a serious look at what you're doing, and try to navigate past it. It's not easy. I had to step away from roleplaying and figure it out, then I started fresh with a new character. While it took a good year or three, I feel like I have a better standing with the community as a whole now, including DMs and players alike.

The biggest thing I learned, is that when you mess up, admit it. Apologize, try not to repeat it, and move forward. There's a lot to be said for someone who recognizes when they could've handled something better, which personally was the hardest lesson I learned.

I concur. The shaking up of this status quo of Cordor and Kohlingen will give different groups on Amia the time to shine once the nigh-apocalyptic campaign is over. I've always considered(especially the mainland) of Amia A to be the place to be to make hubs if possible, as the more accessible and less-isolated(whether by server or in-game travel times) a faction base is, the more potential it has to encourage roleplay as people run into it and as the influence of the base comes out of the base.

Due to the apocalypse that impends upon the Isle, it gives every player of virtually ever alignment a chance to influence some part of the Isle in the future, no matter how large or small. As well as with the Underdark having events going on, this gives evil and otherwise less benign PC's a chance to make something profound out of what happens in the future.

Not to mention, it gives players more control over the future in general. Unless the PC's end up making a very large base only to leave, you won't necessarily have to have situations where DM's are forced to take control of the whole thing. We'll see how the whole thing goes, but I'm quite pleasantly surprised at the current take from the server.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Lots o' text

I agree that the server shouldn't do 180 degree changes for every flavour of the month, and that changes to the server should be reserved for characters that have been around for a while.

While having to put massive amount of time and effort in hopes of being able to change something is fair, it's not much fun (depending on what type of work lies behind the change). I personally prefer the current Amia where everyone can have an impact over times in the past where few could have a meaningful impact without a lot of work and time put in before seeing a change.

What even amounts to work in game? Is it making posts about the IC efforts made? Is it gathering a lot of gold or IG resources through the job system for a building or a boat? All in hopes of having a request approved for an area change. While that is certainly a lot of work and effort and a fair process it's hardly a fun one.

Personally I'd rather have fun than trying to achieve some abstract goal in a game of make believe.

Shadowfiend wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

Lots o' text

I agree that the server shouldn't do 180 degree changes for every flavour of the month, and that changes to the server should be reserved for characters that have been around for a while.

While having to put massive amount of time and effort in hopes of being able to change something is fair, it's not much fun (depending on what type of work lies behind the change). I personally prefer the current Amia where everyone can have an impact over times in the past where few could have a meaningful impact without a lot of work and time put in before seeing a change.

What even amounts to work in game? Is it making posts about the IC efforts made? Is it gathering a lot of gold or IG resources through the job system for a building or a boat? All in hopes of having a request approved for an area change. While that is certainly a lot of work and effort and a fair process it's hardly a fun one.

Personally I'd rather have fun than trying to achieve some abstract goal in a game of make believe.

Personally, I do agree that fun is the prominent goal for anything done for entertainment. Both for the team and the player base. Once something you are doing for fun starts to feel like work, it is generally a sound idea, in my opinion, to reevaluate what exactly it is you are doing.

That being said, I also think that the request system for things such as that are a necessary thing. For several reasons:

- The validity of the IC concept.

Given that we pride ourselves on the lore accuracy of what it is that is being approached IC. Anything heavily lore centric is best to be requested simply so that we and the player can actually be certain what is being wanted actually fits in the setting.

- To make sure it's not simply fun for the player, but fun for the community

By this I don't mean that it has to MAKE fun for everyone in order for it to be done. But, that the concept doesn't harm anyone else's ability to HAVE fun by existing. Area changes are an excellent example of that. Say someone decides to build up IC resources to have an area changed. And then, not too long later someone else decides to do the same thing, to the same area. Is it going to harm the fun and development done by player 1 to approve the concept being done by player 2. As well as is it actually ICly logical for what is being requested to take place?

- To make sure the system isn't abused.

This kind of goes hand in hand with the first two points. But more specifically to make sure that any players don't come at the openness of the server and its setting with malicious intent. Not saying that anyone here is or will but malicious people by nature do exist. People that get enjoyment out of intentionally ruining other's enjoyment. The request system for any changes is a solid way to keep checks and balances in as to make sure such an issue doesn't happen.

It may not be FUN to have to write up an IC list of what you have done and request something being changed. I agree and if things could be perfect, everyone could know their IC stuff 100% perfectly and malicious trolls didn't exist in the world - I'd want nothing more than to do away with a request focused system.

But, sadly that's not the world we live in so my personal views are it's a necessary evil to make sure that the fun we do have actually remains where it is.

IC action and development to make IC change is just a standard thing with Roleplay. You get as much out of it as you put into it as a character. But requests exist not to check and make sure you are "doing the amount you need to do to deserve what you are wanting." Bu to check and make sure that the system isn't being harmful to the enjoyment of the player and everyone else.

I address my feelings on this with the video I'm putting together re: my time on Amia. Since I go in depth there, all that's really needed is a TL;DR here. As always, I've written and re-written this, so attribute any perceived harshness to brevity. No one, either side of the DM screen, feels like they aren't trying their best, I know. The text issue that Amarice speaks of is largely the reason I'm making it a video and not yet another forum post.

Amia very rarely has a fairness issue. It very often has an arbitration issue. This arises from what is at this point a CVS receipt of disparate rulings(kudos to Jes for taking the time to put all of the stickies in the Rules forum) and the nature of how it makes decisions. The consensus on a ruling is almost exclusively between DMs themselves rather than between DM(s) and players, as it might be in P&P. This is nothing new. This has been the case for most teams. But as more and more fell into the DMs laps, the more it became an actual issue.

To use a lackluster metaphor: DMs are referees. They have, over time, taken it upon themselves to make more calls. Of course with the goal of making the game better/fairer/etc. But no matter how well-intentioned the calls, the sheer fact remains that the more calls made, the more likely something is going to be felt as unfair by the players. And the more chances for them to actually just straight up make a bad and unnecessary call. This is particularly problematic because when a player says "hey, that wasn't a foul," or whatever, they feel like they've got no recourse but to shut up or "take their ball and leave" as it was said. Especially given how the team of refs can shift drastically in opinion over given years or even months.

This is not to discount the great things that the team has done, especially lately, to ease this. Things like autonomous Faction areas, freebie/low requirement requests, frankly, removing themselves as possible obstacles in many cases and instead focusing on being facilitators. But the hard truth is the reason you get so many calls of unfairness throughout the years is because the team's sort of backed itself into a corner where it's expected to check-mark/rule/approve so much. Naturally, those opinions of the few(the DM team) can't possibly always jive with all the opinions of the many(the players). With a matured(and diminished) playerbase, much of that oversight that we've all grown used to probably isn't as needed. As DMs, the feelings of unfairness aren't necessarily your fault. It's just that your opinions, rulings, however well-meaning, have had increasingly more weight and direct impact on whether a player is able to play in a way that is fun to them on Amia. And, through what I can only imagine as a mix between groupthink, self-selection, and the Abeline paradox, opinions have gotten only more particular over the years. That goes for requests, but also to faction dealings, and to OoC player issues. Truth be told, the seasonal calls of you being unfair are, well, largely from you guys continuously having to determine what is fair, where previously you didn't have to. That's my theory, at least. On one hand, it's to be expected with a long-lived server, but on the other hand, it's not wholly unavoidable or irreversible.

I honestly think that sometimes the amount of work people are supposed to put in, is simply too much.

A lot of the "examples" I have been presented with in terms of "Look how much work they put into it, and it worked out for them" was from a time when most of Amias population was still going to school, had no responsibilities or a family to take care of.

I quite honestly feel like I've been getting tons of help in that aspect for my faction, since quite literally all of my people there have a shitton of responsibilities, work shift, have a family or all of the above. Which was good, because otherwise we could simply have not achieved anything, simply for the fact that we only have a very small amount of time from our lives to do something we enjoy, and that can't always be Amia every day of the week.

I feel like sometimes, when people try to achieve something, DMs should take a step back and think for a second "Hold on, we all, on this server, are adults now. Can I really expect this guy to put this massive amount of time into it realistically?"
Because I feel like that's what has been done for the Riptide, and I think at this point people see how well it is going.

Then again - Just to speak out FOR the DMs - Most of the times that other players come moaning and crying to me about how it's not fair that others can achieve this and that and they can't?
It's quite honestly because they tried once for about ten minutes and then dropped it because it lead nowhere from the get-go.

I noticed that behaviour quite a few times with people trying to join my crew. They could not even stick to their cause for more than one day, hell, it wasn't even that: They sometimes asked to Join, Peggy told them to stick around a while and we'll see - Boom, never to be seen again. I had one person be outright pissed OOC because I didn't let them join right away.

I feel like that must be what DMs see a lot. And a lot more. And a lot worse.

Call me naive, but I try to think most people don't have the worst intentions in mind. Don't get me wrong, I've interacted with plenty of people who have shown me that they are cancerous or insensitive. But it usually takes a while for me to come to that conclusion about them. After all, we all have our dick-days.

I think the most important thing that I've learned over the years I've hung around is to take as little seriously as possible. Going even further, don't take things super personally either. Unless someone outright says "u suck, i hate you penis-face" to you, the player, why get upset? This is a game! We're all here because we like FR, D&D, a really old computer game, and want to have fun.

TBH, I've met quite a few people here that I can relate to more than people in my real life because we share the common ground of the cluster of interests involved with being on this server. We've all got a lot more in common than I think people realize.

Echoing what a lot of people have pointed out, there are quite a few issues that come with text-based communication. We miss out on a lot of important aspects of communication, like tonal quality, expression and body language which exacerbates so many issues with disagreements. It amplifies our natural tendencies to see people disagreeing with us as rude or unreasonable, regardless of the reality. I've also noticed the common "He did this thing, why can't I do it too?" issue coming up especially over my years here. And much more often than not, a lot of it has to do with many aspects of what people do to accomplish a certain goal aren't open to the public eye, meaning we don't know everything that went into it. Which isn't necessarily fair or unfair, but it does often lead to misunderstandings an perceptions of unfairness.--And this isn't something I can really offer a solution to. Making all factions/PCs goings on public isn't fair to the players because of the potential to (accidentally or otherwise) metagame information about them.

TL;DR. We're here to have fun, people generally don't want to ruin that for other people.

Be kind to each other, Amia.

./endramble

I have honestly gotten a bit paranoid after my ban, sometimes I barely dare talk to people in tells or party chat, fearing something might be seen as a rulebreak. If people find I am to malicious or cancerous as Raua called it. I know I been a proper asshole. But please, come to me, tell me. I love the community, I got so much memory here.

Raua wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I've interacted with plenty of people who have shown me that they are cancerous or insensitive.

I'll clarify that this is in the context of "Over the 5 years I've been here," and is not referring to any one person as of current.

Budly wrote:

I barely dare talk to people in tells or party chat, fearing something might be seen as a rulebreak.

Generally, I'd just try to make sure people have a good time if I'm interacting with them. Life can suck. TBH, the fact that your conscious of how you behave OOC is a good sign.

Interact with the players OOC under the golden rule of "trying to D.A.D."

(Don't be A Dick)

Rather than give more long-winded observations(like I usually do :idea:

), here are three specific questions I have for our current DMs. And they're half rhetorical to get you thinking, but responses can get a dialogue started. And it may be easier to chart our course from there.

1. How often do you find yourself asking "why not?" when presented with a suggestion or situation that may not be in your personal preferences? Taste accounts for a lot when you're one of the few arbiters for the server. Removing yourself from a vote is often a way DMs can avoid voting against their conscience, but it can lead to things that are different(but largely within purview) lacking a Devil's Advocate within the team.

2. Have you ever noticed yourself becoming more critical the more information/background is added to a request or suggestion? To a certain extent, it makes sense(the more info that is there, the more there is to read up on and compare). But what seems to happen a lot of times is people write essays because they think the team wants essays, only for them to be critiqued like, um, essays.

3. Have you--or the team in general--ever taken a chance to consider what may be instruction creep? Or policy creep, as I've called it. The definition there is pretty spot on for what I think we may be facing. It's possible that some of the situations DMs find themselves in, in either being strict or applying rules, may be because we have guidelines that are no longer as relevant to how we'd like to operate as a community.

1. I more often than not say "Sure, if it's within your character's power" on most things. There are occasions where, when possible, I suppress certain character's abiltiies for the sack of a plot that can't be cheesed, Riptide lot know this in regards to their current plot. When it comes to requests, I'm /always/ more ready to accept a request than reject it, however when it comes to complicated requests I normally expect there to be thought-out and researched reasons behind it, more so just to make sure a character is played within logical lore reasons (But I'll get in to that for #2)

I think in the whole, and I know this is a feeling shared by the current DM team, we'd rather have RP flourish by saying yes rather than stagnant by saying no. HOWEVER, this does not mean we have to grant things without effort. Big rewards such as faction area upgrades, plot advancements and certain requests need to have a counterpoint of player effort in them.

2. Literally, almost always when it comes to "generating" a character that requires a request. Some characters that are request-only I genuinely believe don't need "too much" fluffing up. Characters such as Elflings are very straightforward requests and serve more of a "What is your character going to do?" than expecting a massive essay of sources and citations of the subrace's existence. However, this is sorta opposite to very unique requests and generally scale with the harder to RP side of things. Big, rare character requests such as (and this is not limited to) Dragons, Constructs, Fey or Giants need a very laid out request for us to know that you have researched not just what the being is, but how to RP as them. Sure, some of them are relatively easy to comprehend, but again it's a show of effort.

With all of this said, though, we don't expect essays. There's a big difference between writing concisely and endlessly presenting the character fluff. Naturally, the more complicated the request the more we need to see to make sure you're aware of what you're requesting, but this doesn't mean we need it to be verbose.

Now, as an off-hand example, let's say you want to play a Giant called Rick. Rick isn't your normal giant, in fact his parents were killed when he was little and a farmer stumbled upon him when he was a baby. Raised in a kind-hearted Halfling environment, he has a gentle heart and a fondness for Hin. Now obviously our big point is, the vast majority of Giants lean towards Evil or Chaotic alignments, so when a race that isn't "hard-coded" (such as Dragons) to an alignment is there, we generally just want a feasible reason as to why they're not. To use this example once more, a good thing to present to the team is how this strange background will create RP. "Having been raised by Halflings, Rick will try and insert himself in to Bendir Dale. He is naive against the prejudices they might have to him being a Giant, which will generate friction RP between Rick and the Bendir Dale faction."

See? Didn't need to be long, was straight to the point and you can add a link to a sourcebook where it discusses the Giant's alignments.

3. Now before I get in to this, I'd like to split up what we call Policies, just for reference. There are In-Game Rules and Out-Of-Game Rules.

In-game wise, we try to pretty much make it as simple as "No metaing", "No Muling/Twinking", "No bug-abusing" and "No offensive RP" (primarily towards gore and sex). Out-of-game wise, I can agree where you're coming from. A lot of rules in this category have had to be slapped on as and when we have needed to. The issue is a lot of it is because, ultimately, we do often get people who treat this game so seriously that they go out of their way to harass, bully or in some extreme cases we've seen, even blackmail players due to them not liking them. This is a glorified persistent tabletop session, my rule is, if I wouldn't let it happen in a real life session why would I let it happen here?

DM teams in the past have banhammered more often than not, we've tried our best to allow players who haven't caused any extreme distress to work on their attitudes, with things such as second chances. However, some players choose not to do this, so sometimes it comes across as the DM team banning them solely by rule proxy. Without breaking our own oath of confidentiality, some players have multiple pages on them full of information and discussions due to their own rule-breaking.

Overall, both with in-game and out-of-game, we don't want people to think that they need to jump through hoops, but a lot of rules have had to be added due to other people not using common sense or decency. If players have any rules in particular they want to discuss, we're all ears.

-

Overall, just as something I want to add that hasn't got anything to do with the questions, I'd like to put this blanket statement on how I personally think the DM and players should interact.

DMs /are/ players, event topside. We run the server the same way as we'd run our own PCs, to help shape the world around them. OOC, we should always strive to see players are equal and, in all honesty, players should do the same with us.

Again, going back to my tabletop analogy: If we were to physically be sat around a table doing this, and let's say we take a break from playing to get a drink, would you not find it weird if all the players talked to each other and the DM just sat there quiet?

We're all here to have fun. DMs have the added pressure of also administrating the server but, in my humble point of view, the team have come through leaps to present a new dynamic as opposed to the dynamic of old which some of us have been through DM or Playerside, which we don't think the practices work well with out current playerbase.

But with all of this said, we won't ever give people things without effort, and it's worth noting that effort you personally do not see does not mean there is an absence of it.

Kamina wrote:

1There are occasions where, when possible, I suppress certain character's abiltiies for the sack of a plot that can't be cheesed, Riptide lot know this in regards to their current plot.

Just in regards of this, while not recently my experience with having played a diviner. I still want to point out that suppressing, per say, is not a bad aspect. I use my case as an example, as a diviner, I never wanted to "Okay I cast this spell to get winning information", I wanted more... "I cast a spell to get some insights to hopefully shape actions of others". So the role is providing information to those who call the actions, for example in the Dragonbane plot. However, if suppressing goes to extreme of "Get nothing", it eats away from the potential of RP... Hence, I would always recommend find something to offer for the player that plays a certain concept that they can utilize. I stress that the get nothing was more the past experience and not current.

And of course, there are situations that warrants the "There is nothing", but when reasonable, try to provide something to work with to offer a PC an active part. I think there was good way of DM's dealing with divinations recently "There is nothing, but this is possibly due to this", so it explains why the spell.. did not provide anything actual, but provided some information to work with. At least the caster can explain.. "I tried but.. possibly this" instead of "No idea why not..". It promotes being inclusive over exclusive, which I try to achieve for as a player to a point. Yet, ,it also comes down to the players to realize that they also are responsible to scope their abilities, not aiming for "I do this and win", instead "I try this to get something to work with". If you aim for instant win, you're more likely to be denied in active plot and what fun is it if PC's get to one-shot plots?

In the end I also feel that the current atmosphere risks vs. rewards is rather low, in my opinion there are not much consequences happening to PC's. Sure cities burn down, we lose ships and whatnot, but those risks are for the environment more than towards the PC's. Then again, I tend to be rather risk-oriented player, I also do not mean such risks as "Loses favor of other Pc's or NPC's", I mean more... Loses a leg, arm or perma for stupidity.

IMO, this low risk scope as well explains quite to extent why running ahead happens, because players know there won't be anything happening to their toons anyway.

Anyhow, I feel the current DM team has moved taken leaps to improve from the past, well it is also a very different team.

I also want to point out that recently I noticed a lot of pointers that it is always the same characters getting the spotlight. For example the Dragonbane plot, my toon had a lot to do there in certain aspects, yet there was work she did to get there... Contacting various people, meeting and also a lot of OOC contacting to get things forward. I would like to think that if people want to get to the spotlight, they can if they do the work to get there, the DM's are more than ready to help you out if your aims are reasonable and inclusive of others. Of course some things need to happen in exclusivity. Perhaps my part of pointing fairness here, is that usually those PC's who are in the thick of it... IS due to the fact the PC and player is doing a lot of work to get things moving, so please try to be considerate of that as well.

I echo the comment made of requests, they feel more arduous work that needs to aim for "wow" -effect to get passed and so much work to achieve which I necessarily have time for. Not to mention finding other Pc's with right skills is impossible at times. That's just my feeling of them though.

EDIT:

In relation to the requests... I've also seen a huge increase to getting DC items from the djinn, which is excellent to have as a way to get them. But at times I also do feel it is eating away from the potential of being inclusive and making a project with other PC's, letting other PC shine with their competences. Then again, this could be the price paid for requests being arduous work, with djinn they seem easier to accomplish. Just a thought, and I don't mean it is necessarily a bad thing either, there is good in this too, I just personally won't get any DC items from the djinn, as I want to do them with other Pc's. Personal choice, I know.

Everything Kamina said is pretty much my own point of view here as well.

Some things I personally would like to add:

1) General IG requests
In general, our goal is not to stop or suppress roleplay. The line is always a tricky one for several reasons. One big issue is, that the label "fair" is a very finicky one. For one, what is fair to one person may not be fair to another/several others. For example, Player A nudges a DM "Hey I want to hellball and destroy this house". Now this may be within the capability of player A's powers. Denying it would feel unfair to player A. However, there may be group B who frequent this place, or are protectors of the area, and who may feel granting it would be immensely unfair because they are not online at the present time. Now player A may feel "well if they are not there they are not there". On the other hand group B will feel "well our charas live in this area, and it is a game, I have RL obligations or this is a time where I cannot be online because I have to sleep because I am in another timezone".

Then we have an obligation to ensure that overall things will still run. I know a common issue is that people feel "well there are monster X living near our settlement, our charas want to destroy them permanently, it makes no sense for us to not be able to." I understand the sentiment. I really 'really' do. I have been there, multiple times myself. However, we have limited staff and we cannot remove hunting grounds on a daily base and make new ones. Additionally we would need to come up with something new to move in there as "empty space" would be a waste and never see use. We cannot make it settlement 200 either as that also would lead to decrease in RP as things get too much too spread out. The same goes for destroying settlements or areas. It may sound simple but there is a huuuge rail dragging behind on what we have to keep in mind, and if we forget something it is super frustrating for people. For example a) are there job NPC in the area? If so are they found elsewhere too? Is this elsewhere accessible to everyone? b) are there merchants in the area? do we have merchants elsewhere who sell the same? c) are there other important NPC in the area like quest NPC or NPC that grant clas abilities like monk/bard/BG etc.?

2) DC requests
Here there is a clear difference in what you request.

- Small RP stuff, Summon Reskins, Bottled Companions, etc.
Usually these are no issue and you rarely see them denied. Sometimes you see adjustments or alternate suggestions if things simply don't fit. A bottled companion is a low HP commoner like creature. Reskinning it to something super powerful hence makes no sense and it is not what it is for. It can't and shouldn't represent a dragon, a devil or a celestial. It represents a being of "commoner like status". Summon reskins are more poweful and hence can be reskinned to something more powerful. Here you have to diffrenciate, is this still RPed as a 'summon' or something else. While you can easily summon a Balor, you probably can't have one permanently living in your house.

- Character requests
As Kamina pointed out, there is a difference between playing an "easy" race that is flexible in how they can turn out and playing a "hard" race that is horrendously complicated and usually more something of an NPC caliber. For the later, we do need to know the one who requests it, knows what they request to RP it accordingly.

In the end you may ask, "well is it really so bad if someone just makes up their own shit and plays some poweful being not totally up to lore standards?"

Now, I guess this is a matter of opinion, but to me, yes it is. Amia is rather reknown for being somewhat lore-appropriate and reasonable. There are plenty servers where no one gives a damn what you play. But many who play on amia do enjoy playing on Amia because it gives you a little of that PnP feel where things actually have their lore and standards. And those people would not enjoy having the jokster toll giggle poo demon jump around. So we get back to point 1, fair is always a bit in the eye of the beholder. What is fair to one may not always be fair to everyone and vice versa.

We try our best to keep things fair in a general sense. Same with item balance and such. We don't want to limit your character, we merely try to give people the same or similar chance if they go for something. Does this always work out? no, I doubt it does. Pleasing everyone is extremely hard since everyone has different values, focuses and opinions. I am convinced though that non of us try to screw anyone over "just for the sake of it."

I know people think I am very strikt and harsh. I hear it a lot and I guess I am in some fields. So here some personal things from me:
1. No, I do not want to screw you over. No I do not dislike you, whoever you are, I do not know you.
2. I have no ambition or desire to "put you down" or "disregard your rp" if I voice my concerns then it is because I genuinly feel that something is amiss. Wether this is true or not, is as everything in life up for debate and I am always willing to have that debate.
3. I very rarely just say "nah". I usually give hints and suggestions on how whatever I feel isn't working could work. Should I in a rare case not, then ask and I will always elaborate.
4. I am one voice of many. I may be one of the "stricter" ones, but I wouldn't start a drama with my collegues if they rule different and in the end my opnion is "outruled". But I am a person here as everyone, and I reserve my right to voice my concerns if I have them. Wether those concerns are heeded or deemed valid in the end is a team decision.
5. I am not a person to beat around the bush. I am very straight forward and I know this is not something everyone likes. Please, do not try to look for meanings "between the lines" or things the like with me. There usually are non. If I ask "What is your base?" I am just curious what you had in mind. It's not a hint that I think you picked something stupid, or even that 'I' have a specific idea what I feel would be apropriate. It is simply as it is, me wanting to know what you had in mind. (Sorry Zaf for borrowing your request here XD) Mind, this was not an issue here, I just needed a general example, but I know people often like to take my short remarks or questions and interpret them as me being displeased. I am really not. If I am dispeased or doslike something, I will just point it out, you don't need to search for it!

Concerns about fairness and other things

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