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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 02 2019, 16:37 PM 

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Good evening all,

The last post in the Underdark Forum was nine months ago. The Underdark has been just as quiet. There are multiple reasons, namely the server-wide low player count and 1.69's poor accessibility. The first to go player population-wise are the niche environments: the Underdark is as niche as one can get.

We know Amia is porting to nwn:ee and that this will make amia more accessible. We know that the DM team are shaking the foundations in order to set up the setting for the move. There is no guarantee that the move to nwn:ee will defibrilate the unconscious underdark. Despite this, I'd like to see a re-vitalisation because surface RP isn't intriguing or evil enough for me. I'm planning a new character (initially I was planning a female Drow cleric, but after 14 years of Jack Galenson I'm over roleplaying nasty clerics. I haven't dismissed the idea entirely however if that's what the amia setting needs) and fresh start with the transition accordingly.

With the move to nwn:ee however, I'd like to propose a change of thinking of sorts:

Years ago Selvec Darkon (R.I.P brother) and I heavily talked about our observations of the Underdark throughout Amia's history: We need to change our thinking from Menzoberanzans and Gracklstugh's as the model to Skullports and Sschindylryns. The option was provided in the past with Underport and L'Obsul, but was never utilised to its full capacity. We need to evolve the strong elements of Drow and Underdark roleplay and use them to push ourselves into the server-wide stage, opening up possibilities that weren't possible with such an enclosed system previously. Our Drow houses and other similar minded Underdark elements can take a page from Bregan D'aerth's book, equally exploiting both the underdark and surface worlds, and more importantly achieve it without losing what makes Underdark Roleplay unique.

To facilitate this, we need to be smart. We need to push our roleplay and our subsequent requests towards achieving this: we need to look at illusion magics that allow us to transform our appearances similar to Bregan D'aerth operatives. We need to look at requesting Szarkai (Albino Drow) characters, requesting Slave PCs or even utilising existing, evil inclined surface PCs such as tieflings, half drow and humans who -can- infiltrate surface cities, accrue information and sew misdirection. We need to look at being the show runners that say "being bad is good" and encourage one upping between the Underdark operatives. The surface factions should be waving their fist shouting "Drow Hooooooooouse!" when we pull the strings and foil their plans, respecting us as a force they can't ignore.

But, to achieve such, some compromises from the current state must be made.

Firstly, some barriers need to be broken down. These include player barriers and module barriers.

The biggest player barrier is the blind adherence to xenophobic isolationism. Its a fundamental part of the Underdark setting and subsequently Amia-based Underdark roleplay, but Drow, Duergar and Orogs do cooperate in the forgotten realms setting as much as they fight: if they can't win swiftly with absolute certainty, they don't fight which is why Menzoberanzan and Gracklstugh haven't destroyed each other. Its the old saying that you don't have to like someone to work with them: Player X's Drow doesn't have to like Player Y's Drow or even Player Z's Duergar. Noone is being forced to be friends and it should be encouraged that all three are secretly trying to one up each other. However, all three players need to accept that a degree of cooperation is needed "to profit against the larger enemy," even if each have different goals and methods in how they profit.

The next barrier is the module size: its too big. I don't know the DM team's plan for the Underdark as it hasn't been discussed publicly, but I'd like the playerbase and the DM / Developer team to consider either downsizing the Underdark, or further increasing its accessibility to the rest of the server. Further accessibility could include making its hunting areas more accessible similar to the old combined Underdark on Amia A, or opening up L'Obsul to other races and making it easier to get to as a trading hub for evils and nasties.

More importantly, I'd like the playerbase to also have a think of going back to one Underdark city again rather then two, whether it be Nec'perya (Thrandariiv in its current rendition), L'Obsul or something else entirely: two is just too stretched out for such a niche playerbase to truly thrive, particularly if the server remains with less then 30 people average logged in at one time after the transition to nwn:ee. I understand that this may come across as a slap to the face to all the players and ex DMs who put their time into Nec'perya's development (myself included, having invested time both as a player and as a former DM), but you wouldn't be the first to lose something you worked for. Just ask the Banites of any rendition, the former Kelemvorites and more recently the Kohlingen factions.

Its late at night down under so I'll wrap it up for now. Just.... have a think on it. Weigh up the losses compared to the potential of what can be gained. NWN isn't getting any younger: its about compromising to squeeze the most out of what we've got. As the past has demonstrated, "how we've always done it" isn't working.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 02 2019, 19:40 PM 

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All good and nice ideas, but to go for the whole "open up the Underdark to other races" kinda removes the whole idea/concept for me of Underdark Drow. But yeah. You bring up valid points. Currently I think we need to grow in numbers to be able to hold a proper Underdark.

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Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 6:52 AM 

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As I said Budly, less Menzoberanzan and more Skullport.

You can still have your Lolthites and their traditions in such a setting. Lolthites even thrive in the 3.5 era Skullport: you're just not automatically in charge, or the dominant power. You have to earn it. More importantly, you have to keep it.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 8:51 AM 

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Budly wrote:
All good and nice ideas, but to go for the whole "open up the Underdark to other races" kinda removes the whole idea/concept for me of Underdark Drow. But yeah. You bring up valid points. Currently I think we need to grow in numbers to be able to hold a proper Underdark.


a drow only underdark inevitably kills the underdark

make l'obsul the only city, this was the intention from the very beginning, and the metropolitan setting would have led to a revival if lifer drow-only players ahdn't thrown a fit so hard disco had to make an entire city for them to run off and hide in.

realtalk this is your biggest obstacle to revitalizing underdark RP: you must end drow xenophobic superiority to let UD RP thrive

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 9:10 AM 

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I think the most important part if underdark is re-implemented is that it's done in such a way that it can interact organically with the rest of the server.

If underdarkers have to go out of their way and come up with excuses to interact with surfacers it's not going to end well, I think.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:26 AM 

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Well, to me the fun part is the Drows superiority complex and their Lolthite cities. Otherwise im not particularly interested on a personal level. Drow are xenophobic, just like the most arrogant of surface Elves. That is one of the fun parts of playing them. Unless my old Drow crew think this is worth a while I only bid you good luck. This type of Underdark RP do not interest me. There is no other place to get the Menzo RP, I rather not do the crawl around the political mess of 5-6 races plus in one city. It feels like the surface by then but "evil". With that said I want to point out that you put a lot of effort into this and your ideas are not bad at all! Just not for me. But I can still say good job and hope others jump on the ship.

Shadowfiend wrote:
I think the most important part if underdark is re-implemented is that it's done in such a way that it can interact organically with the rest of the server.

If underdarkers have to go out of their way and come up with excuses to interact with surfacers it's not going to end well, I think.


It used to thrive when it was on A.

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Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 14:33 PM 

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Budly, there is a reason that no other place does Menzoberanzan style RP. There is a reason its failed on Amia time and time again.

Budly wrote:
This type of Underdark RP do not interest me. There is no other place to get the Menzo RP, I rather not do the crawl around the political mess of 5-6 races plus in one city. It feels like the surface by then but "evil".


This is always whats said. "It will feel like the surface but evil." This is how it could be, with unimaginative players. This is not how it has to be however. It can be so much more then this.

I respect your honesty however: if the compromise is not for you, its not for you.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 14:41 PM 

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Galenson wrote:
Budly, there is a reason that no other place does Menzoberanzan style RP. There is a reason its failed on Amia time and time again.

Budly wrote:
This type of Underdark RP do not interest me. There is no other place to get the Menzo RP, I rather not do the crawl around the political mess of 5-6 races plus in one city. It feels like the surface by then but "evil".


This is always whats said. "It will feel like the surface but evil." This is how it could be, with unimaginative players. This is not how it has to be however. It can be so much more then this.

I respect your honesty however: if the compromise is not for you, its not for you.


It is not for me, but im all for you trying. Maybe I try it out, I don't know. But I saw Ultrinnan in its prime. That was pretty damn awesome. Any Underdark RP that is not that to me, is not good enough as a Lolthite Drow. It just feels like watered down Ultrinnan. So to me, it works if one have the player base.

I can be the most imaginative player around, or the most unimaginative. But you got a good foundation in L'Obsul. Thrand maybe a DM can blow away to make that one big settlement :P

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Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 22:05 PM 

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This possibly will open up for some very diverse conflicts of many different type of Duergar, Drow and so on. So in that manner it will open up for more Underdark races siting on something. So on that part it will be more open for more variety in races, religions and races.

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Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 03 2019, 23:28 PM 

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The Underdark stinks! Pew yew! LOL JK JK

Surface Rp and Underdark Rp is a double edge sword, that's Hella sharper on the surface with more DM focus. It's always going to be that way. That's never going to change. Plus there's few DM's who can hold the post who actually know the Lore. A move to EE and a swell of Underdark player base could hopefully revive it. I only play a goody two shoes Toons, but when the Underdark stirred it was always a welcome perceived threat from below. :) Best of LUCK!!!

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jul 04 2019, 20:01 PM 

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I think there's a lot of good points above, especially in Galenson's post. I am one of those people who always favored a strong drow underdark, so I'm devils advocate here, but I agree it's probably time to do something completely different, this next time around.

If I may add a few of my own discoveries from countless days RP'ing down here:

- I think L'Obsul is a bit too large / obscure to facilitate a good breeding ground of RP.

- I always felt in a way that the Underdark was intentionally separated from the surface, in a way that at times, simply felt like it was not part of the same setting. Due to this, often the plot just was (drow) in a fishbowl and trying to RP building stuff endlessly, until someone inevitably comes and blows it up somehow (always happens).

I think it's possible to address these two issues with the substance of ideas from Galenson's post above.

Just a few thoughts. I don't want to put my nose where it don't belong. :mrgreen:

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thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 10 2019, 22:40 PM 



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I believe the under dark to be daunting and difficult to manage as a starting area. Coupled with the fact there is little to no PC presence, it's an undesirable place to level. Perhaps some of the more savvy UD players could make a guide?

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jul 11 2019, 5:10 AM 

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thunderbrush wrote:
I believe the under dark to be daunting and difficult to manage as a starting area. Coupled with the fact there is little to no PC presence, it's an undesirable place to level. Perhaps some of the more savvy UD players could make a guide?


Those are definitely fair points. The Drow names for things adds to the confusion. I also find that the spawns are really well designed, with multiple damage types, spell users and challenges: it makes it very hard to adapt to them at low levels. I don't envy any underdark race that isn't a Drow or Svirfneblin with spell resistance.

I remember being involved in the design and one of the elements that made the Underdark different in Disco's vision was that the Underdark wasn't a 2D surface like the Amian Island: it was more a cube, with hub spots that linked to specific hub spots which was why only certain areas linked to others. It worked almost too well, in being just as confusing for the Underdark characters as it was for the surface characters who were blindly feeling in the dark.

The problem with a guide, is that it has the potential to blur the OOC lines for an IC server. Not saying its impossible, it just has to be done properly.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 13 2019, 21:40 PM 

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I RPed a bit with this new Drow "movement" earlier this evening. It was pretty fun and I be sure to keep my eyes on it! :)

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Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 17 2019, 17:35 PM 

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This may be a hot take, so bear with me, but:

Underdark Drow lore evolved out them originally being evil Kill-On-Sight NPCs and players roleplaying them would be better off taking a more nuanced interpretation of their society, as to not devolve into constant burnout.

This may be tangential to the conversation, but as a player whose early years revolved about being 50/50 topside/underside, that would be my recommendation for restarting interest in the UD, specifically UD Drow.

They're just... comically written in 3rd Edition, in many cases. Not uninteresting, not uncool, far from it(R.A. Salvatore's books were literally what led me to NWN and D&D). But in terms of something that a group of players could be expected to roleplay, day in, day out, without the inevitable squabbles that pop up. Some people love it(Budly's post being indicative), but as someone who has watched the UD implode from a distance several times, I wonder if there isn't some better middle ground. Menzoberranzan is neat, but it's not the only example of Drow society. Being an extremely xenophobic, arrogant, constantly in-fighting faction is cool, but it seems like it leads to that faction inevitably cutting itself off from other factions to RP with... It's something that I've seen happen to [Just Because I'm]Evil factions, too. If the only interactions you can have with a faction are negative or combative, then it leads to them being ostracized on not only an IC level, but an OoC level in many cases. A UD that takes times to build relationships, interact with those lesser races knowing full well that they don't really need their help, and has options for treachery other than outright PvP-me-now-bro.... well, that would be something that could really become a pillar of roleplay.

I don't know, I haven't been really, really involved since the fall of Ultrinaan, notwithstanding some flash-in-the-pan interactions with Thran'daariv. And I certainly haven't been around lately. Take what I say as a longtime outside observer, and certainly don't think that I'm telling anyone who loved the old UD roleplay that they were doing it "wrong." But as with many things happening now, I don't think the issues are stemming from the physical module itself or really even the players. The stage is fine, the actors are willing, but the script is problematic. Maybe take it in a new direction, then.

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Aeqvinox
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 19 2019, 16:51 PM 

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I just came here to say this, Lolth is not the only drow deity and perhaps when looking for new UD dynamics, we might want to take a closer look at other models where Lolth is not the dominant force, especially since this has been tried so many times with varied results (yes i loved the Lolthite RP in Edonil, and it worked, until it didn't).

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 19 2019, 20:33 PM 

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Aeqvinox wrote:
I just came here to say this, Lolth is not the only drow deity and perhaps when looking for new UD dynamics, we might want to take a closer look at other models where Lolth is not the dominant force, especially since this has been tried so many times with varied results (yes i loved the Lolthite RP in Edonil, and it worked, until it didn't).


Well, Lolth is the Matriarch and Ultrinnan worked perfeclty too. The biggest issue in my opinion is moving it to B. Not Lolth or Drow dominant RP.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:02 AM 

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Aeqvinox wrote:
I just came here to say this, Lolth is not the only drow deity and perhaps when looking for new UD dynamics, we might want to take a closer look at other models where Lolth is not the dominant force, especially since this has been tried so many times with varied results (yes i loved the Lolthite RP in Edonil, and it worked, until it didn't).


Aeqvinox, and Dark Immolation before him raises an extremely valid point. A point that I have always believed in myself.

I've always personally been of the opinion that there are other Underdark, and more specifically Drow, settings in the Forgotten Realms that would be better suited for Amia and its dynamics. Lolth and Menzoberanzan have alot of character, particularly thanks to some very well written novels filled with some very relatable characters, but a Menzoberanzan style environment needs several things that Amia doesn't offer: tighter level caps and an entire server's populace dedicated just to making it work. As a result, I have always felt that pure, xenophobic lolthites were better used as a DM tool rather then a player tool.

More open environments such as Chaulssin, Sshamath and Skullport always have been far better models to base an Underdark playerbase upon then Menzoberanzan for a server like Amia, and were provided in the forms of the Underport and L'Obsul. Vhaeraun and Shar from a deity's point would also prove far more flexible then a Lolth dominant environment for a server like Amia simply because Lolth focuses too much internally, which eventually results in isolateion: Vhaeraun and Shar on the contrary look outwards and would form greater links with the server around the community. Even Ghaunadaur's philosophies (and evil, stricken madness) have a place on Amia.

However, my opinion in the past was always crushed by the dominant pro-Lolthite culture, often with the remark of "if you want that, then piss off and go have that. We'll stick with this because anything other then Lolth is surface RP trash."

The lesson learned from this is that, thanks to 15 years of such, Lolth and Drow on Amia will be the dominant culture without a massive reset. To deny this without lots of work results in massive resistance, so it is better to work with the devil you know then the demon you don't.

Budly wrote:
Well, Lolth is the Matriarch and Ultrinnan worked perfeclty too. The biggest issue in my opinion is moving it to B. Not Lolth or Drow dominant RP.


Regretfully, you and I will never agree on this Budly. Ultrinnan had some good elements, but it had massive, MASSIVE problems.

The OOC problems behind the scenes were rampant. There was a reason that particular players and their sub-factions would meteorically rise, detonate and then disappear on a sudden basis. There was a reason that Nekhbet, the head DM for player disputes at the time, had to step in with a heavy hand and few DMs wanted to interact with the Ultrinnan community.

The playerbase got frustrated with the lack of DM interaction or plot, but when the olive branch was reached out it was either ignored or the playerbase errupted into rage because it didn't go their way. Throw in some extremely powerful NPCs that you couldn't hide from, the first version of racial gates on the server and an unhealthy desire to want everything but not be prepared to roll with the consequences, and you have a recipe for disaster.

The move to Amia B was also not the problem: the playerbase were offered amazing opportunities to embrace there. An entire Underdark environment, a sandbox city that was open to greater interaction with the DMs and the rest of the server's playerbase and the possibility to exceed Ultrinnan in every way. As Tormak so bluntly put it (considering that he as a DM and I as a player fought tooth and nail not to have Edonil instated to repeat past mistakes when that erruption occurred) it was the playerbase that burned down the foundations of that occuring, it was the playerbase that effectively stamped out any other form of Underdark RP by insisting on "doing it the Ultrinnan way" and it was the playerbase that shot themselves in the foot when they spread the toxicity like a bad rash to any potential hopefuls.

It took two years of plotting and scheming but I burned Edonil to the ground, using a larger server DM plot which the Drow chose to ignore at their own peril for that reason: to try and reset the wheel. In a measure I succeeded, just not in the way I hoped.


However,


Budly does raise an important point: Lolth as the dominant culture is not the issue. Lolth as the ONLY culture however, is a problem.

If it were up to me, you need a counter-balancing force to keep the rampant, Lolthite-religious societal patterns in check. From experience, introducing other races as that counter-balancing force unfortunately meets heavy resistance by the die hards. So, instead you need to look at a rival deity, one who is more powerful and just as ambitious as Lolth herself.

The perfect candidate for that, is Shar.

Smack in a monastery of the Dark Moon, Shar's militant monks, in said city and emphasise that Shar has as much sway and force as Lolth does and the dynamic will change: Lolth is no longer the undisputed force of adoration. Then, you can introduce Loviatar and Talona as minor deities under Shar's sway, and all of a sudden Lolth now needs allies of convenience in the form of Selvetarm and Kiaransalee. Firstly, Lolth and her clergy now have to compete for adoration, all the while maintaining a fragile balance with the Sharrites so as to not inspire the wrath of both deities. Secondly, because Shar by her very nature WANTS to corrupt and compete with surface powers, the sandbox city now has links with the wider server that can be played upon by the DM team and playerbase. Thirdly, the Sharrans and Lolthites can compete over the sway of the Loviataran, Kiaransalee and Talonite assets in the city causing a degree of interesting friction and competition. Hell, you could even throw in Malar as both Lolth and Shar have worked with Malar (begrudgingly) in the past: that opens up an avenue for rangers and druids in the underdark setting.

So now you have a nexus of competing evil deities, with even distribution of ambition and power who cooperate only because they have to rather then wanting to. That nexus has tendrils in the wider server around it, opening up many doors that Lolth alone can't (or won't.)

I would then take measures to the next level, in setting up a reason for non-native characters to visit said sandbox city. I would take measures to burn the crouching lemur monk's monastery, forcing monks to come to sandbox city to get their goods from the Dark Moon monks. I would then set up to encourage the mercenary camp to uplift and come to said city, giving the sandbox city a monopoly over the +2 equipment, making people have to go there. I would then work on creating links with the shadow realm, opening doors or even competing with Shadowscape. All of this would then be to drive the city as a centralised hub, with the Lolthites and Sharrans sitting on top of the pile of gold, laughing like kings that "the lessers" are now dependent on them for their needs like grovelling insects.

But, that's just me.

Due to my timezone and my.... sporadic commitments based off my work schedule, I'm not and can't be the driving force behind this change, so I must take the passenger seat. However, I will back those who do drive this positive change 100% and I'm doing so at the moment.

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Last edited by Galenson on Sat, Jul 20 2019, 10:44 AM, edited 4 times in total.

 
      
Genar_Detkasa
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:05 AM 

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Without reading anything, I'm down for this. I will now read the post and write something more substantive later.

Also, hello Galenson.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:14 AM 

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Genar_Detkasa wrote:
Without reading anything, I'm down for this. I will now read the post and write something more substantive later.

Also, hello Galenson.


About time you showed up.

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angst360
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:21 AM 



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To 'reboot' the UD would require a DM 'exclusively dedicated' to the UD, one who does not have a conflicting interest within the UD as a player. Without this, its just a pipe dream and hardly worth debating.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:31 AM 

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angst360 wrote:
To 'reboot' the UD would require a DM 'exclusively dedicated' to the UD, one who does not have a conflicting interest within the UD as a player. Without this, its just a pipe dream and hardly worth debating.



The best way to get DM attention, is to link yourself with the wider server. Not expecting the server to come to you.

From experience client-side, the factions who consistently stuck their nose into other people's business and chased the leads the DMs put out got the most attention because they were willing to chase it. Because they were willing to chase it, they were also very flexible in how it played out.

Underdarkers on Amia historically have had a bad tendency of requesting attention rather then chasing it. Or shunning the attention when it wasn't exactly what they wanted. This makes it difficult for DMs to utilise them, particularly when they have their own plotlines and visions of what they want to achieve.

Having had many conversations with Dustspray, Dustspray had a "sit and watch" approach, letting the players fumble at their own pace rather then holding on for the roller-coaster ride. This was why I got alot of traction with the Scholar, because I chased the offered leads both inside and outside the Underdark when others didn't.

[edit] I'd love to be in game right now, but I'm getting that accursed nwn translation error. Its annoying me that its also an issue in nwn:ee as well.

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Genar_Detkasa
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 20 2019, 10:34 AM 

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Okay, all read.

I do enjoy Underdark RP and I do hope for its revitalisation, also the sky is blue. But I don't really care what form it takes as long as it makes sense and really taps into the environs of the Underdark, because my drow character will adapt to whatever the hell it is and just plot to advance whatever agenda they have.

And that's all to it really. Drow are adaptable creatures, they are largely self-serving douchebags and will do whatever they want or need to do to gain an advantage. Rules of any given society you operate in are simply the rules of the game, and such rules for drow exist to be cheated. Respect the wording but violate its spirit.

If you want to make a Lolthlite house, I say go for it. But you're not in Menzo, you are probably a country bumpkin drow house with pretensions of nobility, let's be real. Your competitors and potential allies aren't going to be drow houses, they're going to be other Underdark races as well as social rejects and deviants from the surface. Isolationism isn't going to do you any favours here, you gotta engage with them if you want to get ahead. Do Momma Lolth proud, figure out what the rules of the game are and cheat the hell out of them to get ahead in life.

Also, hello RaveN.

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The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 21 2019, 4:15 AM 



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Where is Amia's UD setting located. Which settlement is it located under and how difficult is it for interaction between that settlement and the UD settlement are feasible.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 22 2019, 4:45 AM 

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The Little Dragon wrote:
Where is Amia's UD setting located. Which settlement is it located under and how difficult is it for interaction between that settlement and the UD settlement are feasible.


L'Obsul resides underneath Faerun's northern frozenfar region, near Endir's Point in Amia's terms. Exactly -where- Endir's Point is located in the Frozenfar region is much harder to tell: its a pretty expansive region and the definition of where the Frozenfar begins is pretty loose.

Being in the north, its likely that its in the same generalised geographic region as Menzoberranzan, Graklstugh, Blingdenstone and Gauntlgrym which are all located in Faerun's northernmost regions. But, again, its hard to tell with the Underdark: its almost like saying Baldurs Gate and Luskan are close because they're both on the Sword Coast when in truth they are a fair distance apart.

The long and short of it, is that outside of using the portal wands there's two (possibly three, I can't remember) ways to interact between L'Obsul's underdark region and the Frozenfar above, including a link to Brogdenstein, but I won't mention those here. There's not really been much interaction between L'Obsul's Underdark and Amia's splice of the frozenfar above, partly because the Frozenfar hasn't really generated much attention amongst surface PCs, nor has the Underdark community ever really gone outside of their traditional box.

That's not to say that more convenient ways can't be created however with some work.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 26 2019, 17:22 PM 

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Galenson wrote:
More open environments such as Chaulssin, Sshamath and Skullport always have been far better models to base an Underdark playerbase upon then Menzoberanzan for a server like Amia, and were provided in the forms of the Underport and L'Obsul.


Galenson wrote:
As I said Budly, less Menzoberanzan and more Skullport.

You can still have your Lolthites and their traditions in such a setting. Lolthites even thrive in the 3.5 era Skullport: you're just not automatically in charge, or the dominant power. You have to earn it. More importantly, you have to keep it.


I was considering something like this a while ago. An established Vhaeraunite city offers all if not more than what a traditional Lolthlite city would, in terms of UD Drow RP. There is just as much subterfuge, still houses and powerplays, the same amount if not more surface raids interaction. There would be the obvious need to establish relations with places like Shadowscape for its connections to multiple places via backdoor rifts, in addition to Maskarrans, Sharrans, and Shadow Dancer training.

Mind you, there would still likely be a Lolthlite presence in the city. Even Lolthlite houses that must navigate this space of being outnumbered and not instantly having all of the political mojo. Lolth tends to turn a group's focus inward, from my understanding of the lore. She's great for a self-sufficient city that can say screw off to everyone else. It allows her to keep everyone in-fighting and vying for her fickle attention, zealously eager to snuff out anything that opposes her, so that her rule is never challenged. But... that's just a bad business model until you have enough players and moving parts to back that sort of RP up. Unless you're going to have like the 4 or 5 major houses of old Ultrinaan, with as many players as that took, it's probably just going to end up with a couple of people sitting around grand and empty faction bases, who are verboten from doing anything but ostracizing themselves and stomping out anything that could change the status quo.

As far as any player being concerned there would be not place for their matrons and having to be equal with males: there's nothing to say that that sort of matriarchal notion hasn't just become part of the culture for some drow. And any Lolthlite(or formerly Lolthlite) house could still expect all of its members and retainers to follow those rules. Additionally, drow females are still generally larger than males, given most sources. Historically, they've had access to better schooling and such. Not to get into too much RL inspiration, but 10,000 years of that sort of privilege will still have a lasting effecting on the society, even once it becomes more "open." To that end, that sort of classical Amian Drow RP could still exist in such a place. But looking back up the thread, Tormak brings up a valid point from our history: I would fear that the Lolthlites would just packup and move away, unable to deal with any opposing viewpoints in the least. Again, one of the reasons I feel that a more nuanced view of the society would be markedly better for all parties.

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Kamina
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 26 2019, 21:22 PM 

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If we were to put in dev time for such a Skullport-like area, what content do you think we could add in that would aid Underdark RP initially?

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 26 2019, 23:42 PM 

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Kamina wrote:
If we were to put in dev time for such a Skullport-like area, what content do you think we could add in that would aid Underdark RP initially?


You already have one: L'Obsul. No point reinventing the wheel.

What L'Obsul does need however, is a bit of a size shrinkage, a de-cluttering and a better connection to the server around it:

[*] L'Obsul has four major areas: upper, middle, lower and the mines. It then also has the docks. This catches the scope of a large, physical space (which I praise the dev / design team for) but is not very user friendly for what is (and will continue to be) a small playerbase compared to other areas.

My recommendation would be to move it back to one focused area (L'Obsul: Upper), plus the mines (more on the mines later.) We don't need to traverse the whole city to give the scope that it is large: we only need to see the concentrated "adventurer" areas.


[*] L'Obsul captures the physical scope as mentioned above, but not the soul of a cut-throat Underdark metropolitan city. This gives the old bloods more evidence to cry wolf that all the races are playing nice with each other, rather then cooperating because they have to.

Similar to Cordor, it would be nice to see NPCs walking around. It would also be nice for NPCs to comment on things as you walk by, whether its a Duergar spitting at the floor in front of you, or a Zau'tar goon talking of how a Drow residence was raided and the culprits haven't been found, but incidentally there's more Drow slaves in the Orog pens... etc.


[*] There are racial exclusive areas for several major species in L'Obsul: House Zau'tar, the Kobold den... etc.

Purge them, and focus instead of drawing players together in the public spaces rather then stretching them away. If the players want faction privacy and / or racial exclusivity, there's rental houses for that. (Which L'Obsul already has)


[*] There is lots of... clutter. Duplicate stores and job system trainers everywhere. And these duplicate merchants are dispersed throughout the areas too, and can be difficult to find without pre-knowledge or direction.

Purge the duplicates. Centralise them to hub spots as a way of drawing people together.


[*] The starter quest is not user friendly, for new and old players alike. Unlike Speedys in Cordor, the L'Obsul delivery quest is not so clear cut and the recipients are hard to find. It took me a while to find them, and I was involved in testing it during implementation for example.

Tidy this up and make it a bit easier for new players to get rolling.


[*] The underdark travel system, and the dispersion of said travel system throughout L'Obsul is a mess. Greatly designed, but also a mess. It also has really annoying and confusing Drow names for everything in the transitions (though the areas are named in regular English)

Purge the Drow names in the transitions for starters: its a multi-cultural setting and not everyone speaks Drow. The entire system needs a good review though, to be honest.


[*] L'Obsul and the Amian Underdark needs to be better linked with the server around it, opposed to a city and a setting in its own world.

L'Obsul is a large city: its exports need to be going somewhere. Its economic pull must be felt in some subtle manner in the larger Amian economy. It must have rivals both above and below ground (a particular dwarven Barak in the general geographic vicinity comes to mind...) to explain why the Drow, Duergar, Orog and Svirfneblin at the cities core came together to cooperate. when they are traditionally enemies. This is more a DM and lore driven aspect however, more then a Developer aspect. All the dev team would have to do is add in a snippet conversation here and there or an item description there.

As for the underdark, there needs to be more links to the rest of the server: more ways to escape for Underdarkers other then portal wands, and more reason for non-underdarkers to risk going down there.

Additional links could include getting rid of some of the isolated Underdark spawns like the Raiders and better linking the existing spawns to the Frozenfar above. The Ogres are already linked with the Underdark and that's great. Somehow the trolls got down there too, which should serve as a second entry way. The Underdark also has lots of portals to the Shadow Plane: the underdark is traditionally littered with them and can do with a few more to link it eventually to Shadowscape and offer a means of travelling abroad without entering the traditional surface cities. Links to the Abyss via a gateway is also extremely plausible as many of the Underdark races, particularly Orogs and Drow, regularly tamper with outsiders for personal gains.

As for attracting non-underdarkers to risk coming below... Unique equipment or lootbins that can't be found elsewhere. Challenging spawns for epic characters that don't just involve Beholders and / or illithids. Who wouldn't love to bash up an epic dungeon of xenophobic lolthite Drow as an ECL 30+ challenge?


[*] Quests. There's little to no quests in the Underdark. Even if it was a single quest giver, a bounty hunter in L'Obsul who says "bring me the heads of the troll leader, the ogre leader, the Gloura queen, the Duergar chieftain, the Svirfneblin Barrow Warden" etc. It will help out developing characters and cement L'Obsul as a hub power.


I can keep going on and on.... but the simple conclusion is that the foundation is already there, it just needs to be tidied up and made more accessible.

[edit]

One thing I am certain on though out of character, is that one of the two Underdark cities has to go.

There's only only two reasons that I would fathom keeping Thran'daariv over L'Obsul if it came down to the crunch: Thran'daariv's smaller size is alot better then L'Obsul's current form for Amia's underdark playerbase being the first. The next would be if a DM took over where Dusty left off and actively drove the city forward.

Compared to the possibility of scope that L'Obsul offers though, there's not really a comparison.

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Last edited by Galenson on Sat, Jul 27 2019, 1:46 AM, edited 4 times in total.

 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jul 26 2019, 23:46 PM 

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I do not really like the idea of "attracting" surfacers to L'Obsul. As I stated before, do we need a surface in the Underdark? What will be the difference of everyone goes there anyway?

Shrinking it sounds odd when it is supposedly a large settlement too. But making it easier to access the surface I guess is a very valid point. I just hope it won't just become another "open for all" settlement. Cordors "Monster ban" was a nice IC consequence for IC actions and events on the server.

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Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 0:39 AM 

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Budly wrote:
I do not really like the idea of "attracting" surfacers to L'Obsul. As I stated before, do we need a surface in the Underdark? What will be the difference of everyone goes there anyway?


Budly, there are surfacers everywhere in the Underdark.

I'll use R.A Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy and the War of the Spiderqueen as a reference, as they are often slammed as the golden example of how the Underdark should be (at least from a Drow perspective). In the book Homeland as well as throughout the entire War of the Spiderqueen series, there are humans, goblins, bugbears and orcs everywhere throughout Menzoberranzan and Ched Nasad. Most of them were slaves, but some also came willingly for different reasons.

In the book Exile, Dri'zzt and Bel'war come across a human wizard who lived in the Underdark due to a teleportation mishap (which the wizard brushed off as wanting to be left alone). That said wizard polymorphed Clackers, a Peche, into a Hook Horror for his own amusement after he forcefully took their cavern as his own residence and killed all the Peche.

As per the 3rd edition Underdark sourcebook, Menzoberranzan has per has a population of 20000ish Drow citizens. It also has 11000+ residents who aren't Drow: again, most are slaves. But, 1% of the population are free non-drow citizens who came for their own reasons. The sourcebook also explains that surfacers end up in the Underdark all the time, either due to a mishap or to test their skills and become rich.

The Lords of Madness supplement also goes into how the Illithids constantly raid the surface and effectively manufacture short-lived surface races to keep up their cities consumption for brains. Despite their psionic talents, surfacers escape these slave and manufacturing camps all the time, which is why the Illithids have specially bred creatures to track them down, or prevent them from leaving the boundary.

If you read any of the Waterdeep sourcebooks, regardless of whether its 3rd or 5th edition, Halaster's Undermountain links into the Underdark, even so much as paving the way to Skullport itself.

So you see, even the die hard xenophobic cities of the die hard underdark races are littered with surfacers in some manner or form coming and going.

Its also less a matter of what we'd like, and more a matter of whats best. I can tell you that there's many things I'd prefer to be doing in the Underdark, but have realised that Amia is not really the place to do it. Instead, my practices have to be adjusted to cater for Amia's environment, not Amia forcefully changing to cater for me: that's how you end up with three dead Drow cities and a dead Underdark.


Budly wrote:
Shrinking it sounds odd when it is supposedly a large settlement too. But making it easier to access the surface I guess is a very valid point. I just hope it won't just become another "open for all" settlement. Cordors "Monster ban" was a nice IC consequence for IC actions and events on the server.


You don't need to have a large server footprint to give the impression of a large city. A city with multiple external areas and 20+ internal areas only collects dust when 5 - 10 or so players will possibly use it regularly.

Adventurers will flock to points of interest in L'Obsul, just as any large city: A place where money, goods and information flows. They won't care about the nook and crannies of the Svirfneblin dens, or the darkest coal-stained forges of the Orog foundries. How L'Obsul is designed, concentric city layers dug into the walls of a giant subterranean pit, perfectly supports such a focused approach. We only need to see the one city ring that's important: the rest are still there in the background, doing their thing.

I lived in Sydney for 19 years. Its one of the largest cities, area dispersion-wise, in the world. Even after 19 years, there was a good 40% of the city that I had never been to: mostly by choice, but also because I didn't have reason to. The same can be applied to large forgotten realms cities and characters who travel to them.

As for access to L'Obsul, if a human character is crazy enough to brave the Underdark transition system until they stumble there by accident, and they're evil enough to fit in, I say let them. Isolation from the rest of the server is not productive.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 0:51 AM 

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The thing is, I am the kind of person who rather let something rest than adjust it to fit when I believe adjustment will kill the soul of it. I think Drow RP should focus on the Drow and the Underdark. I fear if L'Obsul welcomes surface races, the majority of players be non Drow, Duergar, Svirfs. I heard what happended last time the non Drow player amount grew large while the Drow numbers shrunk, Thrandy happended. This without them even living there, Now Imagine L'Obsul with majority surface races played by players. I am not stating it be bad or not allowed to happen. Im just pointing to how an action to save Drow RP and Underdark might end up killing it cause we cut corners on it to "fit" a community where Drow/UD stuff died a bitter death.

Salvatore from what I hear, is extremely tacky and cheesy at times. so im not to sure Im to keen on taking his "drama" books without a pinch of salt.

1% surfacers or not, they are not many, they are not either numerous enough to do anything. Majority of non Drow is slaves. Im still very much against the idea of "The Surface In the Underdark" by opening up L'Obsul even more. And to me, all places need to be able to be visited to make it feel like the settlement exists. This is a NWN server focusing on the RPG elements, I get we cannot have all parts of a city of MILLIONS like Waterdeep but on Amia we should be able to have all parts of a city represented.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 1:13 AM 

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Mind you all, I think the base concept of Galensons is not bad at all. I just like to play ball with him and discuss the things around it! It is another dimension to Amia and a legacy in the Drow RP. UNderdark RP which been lacking of late.

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 1:15 AM 

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I get where you're coming from Budly.

But you also need to understand, is that what worked back then only worked because Amia as a server was different. Amia is substantially larger now then it was 13 years ago in "the golden era." It also has substantially less players. Its been over 9 years since I had to spam the direct connect to connect to a full server.

Instead of pushing the others out, the incentive should be on the underdark community to drive interest into the underdark. The ownice is on the players, not the server to do that.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 1:19 AM 

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Galenson wrote:
I get where you're coming from Budly.

But you also need to understand, is that what worked back then only worked because Amia as a server was different. Amia is substantially larger now then it was 13 years ago in "the golden era." It also has substantially less players. Its been over 9 years since I had to spam the direct connect to connect to a full server.

Instead of pushing the others out, the incentive should be on the underdark community to drive interest into the underdark. The ownice is on the players, not the server to do that.


I get what you mean, but im the kind of person who rather let it rest as I stated, than thumb on the principle of how I see Underdark RP. But I be happy to RP and see how it goes. Just to see. Should I not enjoy it, I just look at it from the audience and see how it goes.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Genar_Detkasa
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 4:36 AM 

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Drow town falling to Thraan'dariv is a bad example of a negative, there were like, 0 drow and like, 0 underdarkers during that period. A lot of the drow players I talked to were pretty much accepting of Nec'perya falling because at that point, the community was gone, and if you saw how many turned up in Nec'perya's defense, then well, YEAH.

In many ways Thraan'dariv was a positive because it made the dragonkin PCs into Underdarkers that could actually engage in meaningful RP with the Underdark. On a personal note, the entire affair fueled my own drow character's progression when he was stuck in a rut and forced him broaden his horizons to L'Obsul, an improvement from when he was focused entirely on little Nec'perya.

But I get where you're coming from.

I like to see more surfacer PC engagement with the Underdark, but I like it to be done in a way that promotes the unique character of Underdark society and its environs without losing any of its inherent danger for a surfacer. This was the case for Thraan'dariv because when the dragonkin moved in, they suddenly inherited all the uniquely Underdark security threats the drow were facing and now suddenly had to try and cut deals with other Underdark factions to stay alive.
Having a "Foreign Quarter" in L'Obsul where surfacers could safely trade and potentially adventure into the Underdark is one way to promote a level of engagement, or perhaps a new Eilistraeen Shrine that is a frontier outpost in the Underdark to act as a point for surfacers to travel through. Hell, there's already the possibility of Shadowscape being a good frontier outpost because there are connections to the Underdark through the Shadowplane.

As for drow house RP, I think it will come back on its own anyway since the Drow Houses are a main draw for people who want to try a drow PC. But I think its healthy for the longevity of such Drow House RP if they existed in a space that had other things going for it in terms of RP so things don't get stale.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 10:01 AM 

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Genar_Detkasa wrote:
Drow town falling to Thraan'dariv is a bad example of a negative, there were like, 0 drow and like, 0 underdarkers during that period. A lot of the drow players I talked to were pretty much accepting of Nec'perya falling because at that point, the community was gone, and if you saw how many turned up in Nec'perya's defense, then well, YEAH.

In many ways Thraan'dariv was a positive because it made the dragonkin PCs into Underdarkers that could actually engage in meaningful RP with the Underdark. On a personal note, the entire affair fueled my own drow character's progression when he was stuck in a rut and forced him broaden his horizons to L'Obsul, an improvement from when he was focused entirely on little Nec'perya.

But I get where you're coming from.

I like to see more surfacer PC engagement with the Underdark, but I like it to be done in a way that promotes the unique character of Underdark society and its environs without losing any of its inherent danger for a surfacer. This was the case for Thraan'dariv because when the dragonkin moved in, they suddenly inherited all the uniquely Underdark security threats the drow were facing and now suddenly had to try and cut deals with other Underdark factions to stay alive.
Having a "Foreign Quarter" in L'Obsul where surfacers could safely trade and potentially adventure into the Underdark is one way to promote a level of engagement, or perhaps a new Eilistraeen Shrine that is a frontier outpost in the Underdark to act as a point for surfacers to travel through. Hell, there's already the possibility of Shadowscape being a good frontier outpost because there are connections to the Underdark through the Shadowplane.

As for drow house RP, I think it will come back on its own anyway since the Drow Houses are a main draw for people who want to try a drow PC. But I think its healthy for the longevity of such Drow House RP if they existed in a space that had other things going for it in terms of RP so things don't get stale.


A Shrine of Eilistraee among evil dragon kin makes not a lot of sense to me. Eilistraeen go out on hunts to slay evil.

And I also know Drow players that did not like the fall of the city either. As people, DM and not DM, just cause there is no players do not mean there is no people around. Nor do I like the element of players who might build extremely well can become a one man army and just conquer a settlement because "the lack of players".

Nor do I really see why all of you people want the surfacer to head into the Underdark and become part of it. Why? What reason? ICly, it makes no sense to go down there en masse, it is dangerous, oocly, I just see it as a cutting corner thing to create RP to mix it with the surface.

Drow RP is in itself not very stale, it is a very structured and nervous RP becuase of the Drows tendency of backstabs, coups and constant state of civil war with itself or other houses. How this can grow stale compared to surface RP is suprising to me :D

To me, the Underdark always interacted with the surface, not the other way around. That is classic and the way it should be, in my opinion. Last time the surface interacted with the Underdark, Thrandy happended and in my opinion ruined and killed the Drow and Underdark RP on the server. This and the move to be plus the destruction of Ultrinnan and Edonil murdered it. I can understand a once vibrant Drow community dying becuase the Drow is on their 4th settlement. 1 race has lost 3,5 city, L'Obsul I do not count as a Drow settlement fully.

I do not think it is justified to "Lose" your only settlement to "Lack of activity". Cause then we would see several other settlements falling. But we don't. Tarkuul, Winya, Cordor etc (along with other settlements that been rather empty and not active not long ago or currently isn't). But lack of activity to not justify a fall.

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 10:39 AM 

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What I do think, and what I think is worthy of a point of it's own is that this idea in itself is worth of following and supporting. Even if it do not become like I want it to. It is always RP and community coming together. That is something prominent and good. So that part I fully support! Just to point out that I am not anti the idea itself :)

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 14:08 PM 

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The Eilistraeen suggestion is actually spot on, Gelmz. Maybe not a shrine or temple for Amia, but certainly an outpost of some kind.

There's a temple to Eilistraee that fits this outline in Waterdeep, in fact. It also acts as a "rest stop" so to speak. A well-guarded outpost connecting the surface to the Underdark, where surfacers can stop to rest or resupply before going down, and from which Eilistraeens can launch their raids to free slaves and capture evil drow. "Redemption missions," they're called. It's the Promenade of the Dark Maiden, which is apparently the biggest and most influential Eilistraeen locale in Faerun. So there is certainly precedent to that sort of thing. A lot of precedent.

It could be interesting to see something like that on Amia. Making it more viable for surface and underdark to interact would be great for underdark longevity, I think. I always thought it was weird to send the drow off to play by themselves, personally. Ultrinnan was most fun when people had to worry about drow raids and such, in my opinion!

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 16:58 PM 

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My only wariness of the implementation of a "foreigner's quarter" in L'Obsul comes from past experience. Ultrinnan had something similar implemented for other Underdark races, and the Drow players simply avoided it to stick to their exclusive areas. Peeps would rock up to roleplay and the Drow response was overwhelmingly "we don't care." I think it would be a bad move to repeat that.

The Eilistraeean gateway is an idea I hadn't though about before. I think its a great idea. The acknowledgement of a "main entrance" by the surface establishes that gateway between both worlds. Then there can always be other, lesser known back doors that lead in and out.

Some form of linking to the shadow plane I think is also important for the same reasons as previously mentioned by Genar_Detkasa and myself.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 17:15 PM 

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Yeah I know about Skullport and such. But I literally though you guys meant to place a Shrine of Eilistraee in a evil settlement ran by evil dragon disciples.

Adding a Underdark entry to the Shrine on Amia be weird and complicated or another Eilistraeen faction might be bit weird or unfit, no?

EDIT: Also, what is the need for surfacers prominently in the UD in your opinions?

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Budly : Has gone to a better place.
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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 20:48 PM 

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I believe the intent is to make it so Surfacers and Underdarkers can realistically interact like they do in the lore. Instead of the strict segregation they're prone to on Amia.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jul 27 2019, 23:43 PM 

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Jes wrote:
I believe the intent is to make it so Surfacers and Underdarkers can realistically interact like they do in the lore. Instead of the strict segregation they're prone to on Amia.


Yes, but how much interaction really happens? It is not like we have Drow running around openly in Baldurs Gate or Menzo having some kind of Embassy to Waterdeep.

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Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 28 2019, 1:19 AM 

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Don't be so extreme. No one is suggesting that. It'll go however the players feel it should, once there are players playing there. You may be content to leave things the way they are, but that is not the way we want Amia to be going forward. If we did, we wouldn't have blown up Kohlingen. (Among the other reasons for why it happened.)

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Genar_Detkasa
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 28 2019, 4:01 AM 

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Budly wrote:
Nor do I really see why all of you people want the surfacer to head into the Underdark and become part of it. Why? What reason? ICly, it makes no sense to go down there en masse, it is dangerous, oocly, I just see it as a cutting corner thing to create RP to mix it with the surface.


Because it sucks right now. There is also plenty of IC reason for social deviants and outcasts from the surface to come down if they can be more themselves with their deplorable characters. I am not necessarily suggesting a mass migration either.

In terms of narrative; a lot of the time I feel like the Underdark is irrelevant to the rest of the server and that's a crying shame. The aboleth plot that Dusty started and Lutra continued was perhaps the most interesting plot I've participated in Amia, I will say I'm worried it will be dropped or forgotten because it only has affected the Underdark so who cares? There are so many other potential Underdark threats to both the underdark civilisations and surfacer world that could be explored with not only future DM plots, but PC schemes.

In terms of gameplay; what I said about lots of potential extends to hunting grounds. Why aren't there more epic hunting grounds in the Underdark for adventurers to gather together to plunder? The only epic hunting ground Underdark is basically Udo Dro'xun with a different, and more appealing, layout. There's so much potential, especially since we've established all three levels of the Underdark in Amia already. For example, in the Lower Dark there's portals to the elemental planes as well as the shadow plane, what kind of nutty hunting ground could we have there? Furthermore, good gameplay can beget good roleplay. If there's interesting stuff to see in the Underdark, then there'll be plenty of reason to go RP down there.

In terms of community; there are two phases for activity. One where it is just ordinary day-to-day roleplay happening, and one where SHIT IS HAPPENING. When shit is happening, Underdark RP is strong, but unfortunately that is pretty much the only time you see significant activity and that's when a DM might be on a roll or if there is a good leader PC generating hype and getting people to do something. But when the DM is finished or the PC hangs their hat because that shit is tiring, then its immediately back to ordinary day-to-day and that is where Underdark RP is at its weakest because when you're isolated from everyone else there's NOTHING TO DO, unless you are part of a faction but even that faction is struggling to find things to do because that faction is probably the only thing happening.
Its a bit sad how many people give a crack at a UD PC but they give up due to lack of activity, and when shit is happening, they may feel locked out of the loop because they haven't been able to establish their character given the lack of day-to-day stuff. (with the exception of Phearnun's academy of beginnings which was well done to hook in new drow players.)

What I want is an active roleplay scene that doesn't need a DM or a PC with more time than sense to babysit it to stay alive. At the same time, I recognise the drawbacks of making the Underdark -too- accessible so that it loses all of its deadly charm and unique character but I think a change to the status quo is required, I'm just throwing up potential suggestions in how such change could occur.


EDIT: I wrote a longish post about what I think about Nec'perya, but while there are legitimate reasons to be salty about Nec'perya, I personally don't find it worthwhile to re-litigate it in this topic.
I'll put down three points though.
1. Thraan'dariv did not kill drow/Underdark RP.
2. "Traditional" drow RP never truly recovered after Ultrinnan. Edonil was a hot mess and we always struggled with consistent activity in Nec'perya.

3. is an interesting point that Budly raised, which is that settlements like Winya, Tarkuul etc have their periods of inactivity but don't get smashed like Nec'perya. The difference is that these settlements are integrated into a wider narrative whereas Nec'perya was in its own little bubble. Hence, I think it beneficial if the Underdark itself had at least some degree of integration with the server's overall narrative whereas right now, it is essentially its own server. And if something is so standalone and unconnected, who really cares what happens there? You could cut the Underdark and its inhabitants out entirely and none of Amia's major plots/events would have changed.


EDIT2: An Eilistraeen outpost would make me very happy. It would be nice for the 'good guys' to have some skin in the game that is the Underdark.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 28 2019, 15:19 PM 

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Genar_Detkasa wrote:
I wrote a longish post about what I think about Nec'perya, but while there are legitimate reasons to be salty about Nec'perya, I personally don't find it worthwhile to re-litigate it in this topic.

I'll put down three points though.

1. Thraan'dariv did not kill drow/Underdark RP.

2. "Traditional" drow RP never truly recovered after Ultrinnan. Edonil was a hot mess and we always struggled with consistent activity in Nec'perya.

3. is an interesting point that Budly raised, which is that settlements like Winya, Tarkuul etc have their periods of inactivity but don't get smashed like Nec'perya. The difference is that these settlements are integrated into a wider narrative whereas Nec'perya was in its own little bubble. Hence, I think it beneficial if the Underdark itself had at least some degree of integration with the server's overall narrative whereas right now, it is essentially its own server. And if something is so standalone and unconnected, who really cares what happens there? You could cut the Underdark and its inhabitants out entirely and none of Amia's major plots/events would have changed.


TormakSaber wrote:
a drow only underdark inevitably kills the underdark


Genar has pretty much smashed the ball out of the park here. He shares many of the same opinions as I do on the matter, with Tormak weighing in the ultimate truth in his expected manner.

I back Genar's first statement that Thran'daariv did not kill the Underdark. Despite opinions on the matter, the "by the book" underdark was dead well before Thran'daariv happened. That community who instigated Thran'daariv saw an opportunity and they defibrilated the Underdark with their actions. Had their faction leader not gotten themselves banned, I would have been interested to see where they went with it. It wasn't by the book, but who cares: we should not be mocking their attempt. We should be praising them for trying.

I partially back Genar's second statement that "traditional Drow RP" never recovered after Ultrinnan. I agree with Genar that Edonil was a hot mess: as Tormak explained, it was implemented for the wrong reasons from the start and should never have happened. I also back Genar's statement that consistency was a struggle in Nec'perya's era: one part due to the isolation Nec'perya had from the wider server, but also because the community willingly resigned themselves to dependency on the DMs to drive it rather then taking it into their own hands.

Where I disagree however in genar's second point, is the statement regarding Ultrinnan itself. Ultrinnan is still referred to as "the golden era" of Underdark RP on Amia, even ten years after its dissolution and subsequent destruction. It couldn't be farther from the truth. Ultrinnan exemplified everything wrong with today's underdark on a far more concentrated scale:

[*] Ultrinnan was intentionally isolated by its player's actions and culture: it didn't want to be part of the server, which had lasting implications for the future.

[*] Ultrinnan played no part in the larger narrative of the server, which had lasting implications for the future.

[*] Ultrinnan was filled with more factions, public and private, them players. Those factions had no meaningful goals because they were isolated from the larger narrative. What was the point of being the top dogs of Ultrinnan when it meant nothing in the grander scheme? Noone cared because Ultrinnan didn't matter. Its destruction as a result didn't matter to the rest of the server. This had lasting implications for the future.

[*] Ultrinnan was not "traditional Drow roleplay:" it was a highly misconstrued version of it. Near worshipful reverence to "the Ultrinnan way" prevented more opportunities, steered away more DM's and deterred more players away to other server areas then it ever created.

I'm not saying that there were no silver linings in Ultrinnan. However, we need to stop revering Ultrinnan and Amia's Drow-centric past as being a good thing. It really wasn't! Its legacy created all of the problems that led to Edonil and its problems, that resulted in Nec'perya and its problems as well as the stigma that shadows the Underdark today. Ultrinnan is the reason that we are constructively discussing how to deal with and move forward from them. Essentially, we need to stop reflecting back on Ultrinnan if we intend to move forward from Ultrinnan. Its history: let it stay that way as an example of how not to run an Underdark in a wider server like Amia.

I also back Genar's third point that Nec'perya fell because it was not part of the larger narrative. I've mentioned before that I believe that L'Obsul needs to be better connected to the wider server around it. For the Underdark's longevity, it needs to be a big player in the Amian narrative whose influence affects the other powers around it. This partly has to happen at the lore / DM level to establish the foundations of that connection: its then up to the players to strengthen that connection and spread it.


So, with those in mind, to move forward its my opinion that the following needs to happen:

[*] We need to bury the past. In order to create something better, we cannot go backwards and repeat the past mistakes.

[*] We need to clean up L'Obsul: Make it smaller, make it more player friendly and concentrate the focus on bringing players together, rather then separating them apart. With L'Obsul as the anchor which the rest of the Underdark orbits around, it has a set foundation.

[*] We need to weave L'Obsul and the Underdark itself into the Amian narrative, rather then treating them as a separate side narrative. The consequences of surface events should be felt below, just as the consequences of events below should be felt above. Its up to the team to set the foundations, and its up to the players to strengthen that narrative. And most importantly,

[*] We as the players need to run with it and push it along.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 28 2019, 15:40 PM 

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The Underdark is irrelevant because it was moved to B. The server killed it. Who want to play if you constantly lose everything? Ultrinnan, Edonil, Necy? And get the fourth throw away "Underdark" mess of L'Obsul? Along with being pushed to B. I still think the Dragon kin faction placed the final nail in the coffin and that whole mess is something I rather not pollute this server with considering what that faction did oocly. This is what happens when the "surface" get allowed to get down here as of yet.

Nor do I think everything need to be big scale, some of the most interesting and fun events and stuff I seen ever in NWN been isolated and small sized. It is descipable that something need to be "important" or else have a chance of being terminated, and replaced by what? The Chromatics who got their abusive leader banned and killed the Underdark finally, totally so. Beside that, my point is, Drow players did not put the final nail in the coffin. It was a mixed effort. As an old Ultrinnan player, I in a bit take personal offense to people saying this was "shit" and "Not good" and "Non-Drowlike" when it clearly brough on several dozens of Drow players to have 4 to 5 houses active and DMs doing things. On Amia. Before the server spliting if I am not miss remembering.

Quote:
Because it sucks right now. There is also plenty of IC reason for social deviants and outcasts from the surface to come down if they can be more themselves with their deplorable characters. I am not necessarily suggesting a mass migration either.


Why would Drow welcome them in their arrogant glory? WInya do not welcome them inside, they are restricted to a little inn. Why should Drow? You see many "outcasts" from Waterdeep derp down to Menzoberry?

EDIT: At the end of the day, yes, this is a good initiative. I hope we get something inbetween of what I want you people seem to want. I just think the scale Galenson want is impossible to get. I think we should not aim for the moon but a satellite in orbit will be good enough, if you people catch my drift. Cause I do not think we can at all, consider something "BIGGER" For the Underdark RP at this moment if ever.

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Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 28 2019, 23:07 PM 

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Budly wrote:
*snip*


Its no longer about just the Drow. It never was technically.

Budly wrote:
EDIT: At the end of the day, yes, this is a good initiative. I hope we get something inbetween of what I want you people seem to want. I just think the scale Galenson want is impossible to get. I think we should not aim for the moon but a satellite in orbit will be good enough, if you people catch my drift. Cause I do not think we can at all, consider something "BIGGER" For the Underdark RP at this moment if ever.


A compromise can be done, yes. On the condition that you help me make a compromised setting between our visions work.

That is the olive branch of peace that I will extend to you, Budly. Help me make it work.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 28 2019, 23:57 PM 

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Galenson wrote:
Budly wrote:
*snip*


Its no longer about just the Drow. It never was technically.

Budly wrote:
EDIT: At the end of the day, yes, this is a good initiative. I hope we get something inbetween of what I want you people seem to want. I just think the scale Galenson want is impossible to get. I think we should not aim for the moon but a satellite in orbit will be good enough, if you people catch my drift. Cause I do not think we can at all, consider something "BIGGER" For the Underdark RP at this moment if ever.


A compromise can be done, yes. On the condition that you help me make a compromised setting between our visions work.

That is the olive branch of peace that I will extend to you, Budly. Help me make it work.


What do you need from me? "Shut up, Budly" :lol:

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
Galenson
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 29 2019, 1:36 AM 

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Get your ass below, log in regularly and contribute to generating a community and a presence.

I don't care if you do it with Barrlilath, or a different character. If its the former, I will break Barrlilath in and keep them task orientated if I have to.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 29 2019, 9:53 AM 

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Galenson wrote:
Get your ass below, log in regularly and contribute to generating a community and a presence.

I don't care if you do it with Barrlilath, or a different character. If its the former, I will break Barrlilath in and keep them task orientated if I have to.


I might make something new to fill that space. Barrililath is not really that fit for the Underdark with her background. And I do not want to just abandon Belenoth on her.

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.


 
      
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