There's going to be no abuse to any individual or all DMs. But something has to give. This is going to sound weird that I'm the OP of the thread but unfortunately it is not my place to actually answer my own question I'm about to propose, despite knowing the answer.

DM team - How is the server expected to flourish when newer DMs are recruited, expected to DM whilst older DMs are seldom online who still hold a huge amount of influence for server direction?

Despite newer DMs being overburdened with the responsibility for being the go-to for player complaints, requests, issues, DM oversight, there is little to no backing from DMs who have chosen to recluse themselves from logging in in-game or even the forums for RL issues, generic busyness or just simply don't want to play on Amia on their free time. Right now I can personally vouch for a substantial amount of the playerbase that this is a topic they have wanted to raise, but either did not know how to word it in a way that isn't outright attacking the team, or just thought the moment they actually put criticism to the running of the DM team that they will be ostracized from aspects of the server (be that DM approval to requests or actual harassment).

I know this is weird coming from a very recently ex-DM who has full intention on rejoining the team in the coming few months, but if this thread alone twists the view of any DMs who still wish to hold their seat when my availability opens up, then I'd rather be a regular player. I asked the Team a month or so ago about their activity in a very polite way and said that there should be no restrictions on rejoining the team should their availability change in the future, but right now the ever dwindling playerbase is going to dwindle quicker without involvement from the DM team - and this responsibility can not be placed upon the very few constantly active DMs.

You owe it to the playerbase to respond, because I don't think there will be much of a playerbase to come back to if you decide in the long-term future to actually step back on the mantle. If you're going to get annoyed this was made public, it is because people want an explanation.



Players are welcome to respond to this thread, but please keep it civil. If you would like me to post a message on your behalf anonymously just PM me on here or Discord as I know a few of you have been wanting this to be discussed for a while but didn't want to put your neck out on it which is understandable.

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I actually was one of the people who wanted to make a post about this for a long time now.

Exactly what Kamina said, just didn't know how to word it without being branded the annoying asshole.

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Something perhaps missing from the above statement is that I'm sure the vast majority of the player base understands and recognises the time and effort all of the DM staff has made in the past or present. The role of a DM however is a privilege, not a right. A privilege that comes with a commitment of time. I'm sure this whole thing is not intended as some form of attack against anyone in particular nor do I believe that any DM has abused their power by staying seated. However to grow we need to be promoting acitivty. Something we need to be 100% ready to show in force if/once we make the move to EE. Furthermore as Kamina already pointed out I highly doubt anyone would object to any current DM returning to their seat if they ever return to activity later down the line.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

Well said, Lilcat.

A privilege that comes with a commitment of time!

I didn't want to post here prior to DMs this is aimed to, but you basically said what was on my mind in one sentece.

No one deny the amount of work any DM put in Amia, but if you stop contributing your time and energy, you should not be allowed to use your DM vote power. When you return and start contributing again - no one will object to that, I'm sure. But if you're not about to log and contribute, step down and let others who got the will and enthusiasm to keep Amia alive.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

I want to sit this one out, but when I posted about the attitude on the discord server a while ago. This is what I meant. But nor do I think we should only bombard DM's alone, It is a community effort and only together can we do this. We are all one in the community. My few words, I know im not in good favour with big parts of the community right now so I will refrain from lingering in this conversation for to long.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

I'll put in my point of view or side of the matter on this, the reasons why I'm not DM-side on the server atm, the reasons I stayed on which are the same reasons I gave you when you brought this up both back then and the week before you stepped down.

I've given the reason as to why I'm not active in game anymore to people who asked and publically on discord a while back but I'll reiterate it here for the sake of transparency and so that nobody has the impression that I simply said fuck it and don't bother anymore.

About a year ago my youngest brother ended up with some serious hospital complications and was in an out of coma and surgeries for the better part of the last year, after Christmas he is finally well enough to be back home but still in recovery and having irregular surgeries or procedures until everything is back in top shape. This has taken up quite a bit of my own free time as my parents have needed my help both with this and other matters while he's at home and on top of this, I'm currently writing my batchelor this semester which eats up what little free time I do have, especially now as I'm in the "home stretch" last month before it's due. This isn't me asking for sympathy or understanding, but simply stating the "why" so that there aren't any confusions surrounding my hours and absence in game.

I'll also give the reasons why I decided against stepping down and why a few other of us who don't have the free time to run events or log in game time haven't.

1. Consistency. Not every new DM has the experience or knowledge of server balance to always know everything on balance, such as DC items or new additions, or past events or happenings that are still relevant from back when things weren't as well documented or recorded on the DM forums.

Having DMs who has been around for a long time means that you have someone you can go to for questions on these matters or advice. The same is being done with the Dev team where older and experienced Devs such as Mav and Sune, who still stay on despite busy schedules, are contacted when the current team has questions that they need answered or work done that they either don't know how to do or can't do or simply just need input on for whatever reason. This is something I heavily relied on when I joined the team and still do from time to time, because no one person knows everything. (Though a few of the "old guard" do come close to omniscience!) One could argue that you don't need to be on the team for that, but we already know from experience that those that do step down, can end up no longer have much or any investment in the server or stay inside the lines of communications with the team and as such can either be hard to reach or simply not respond because they have no investment or time anymore. Which is completely understandable, they moved on and are doing other stuff now, that's not all on them. Remaining on the team is a conscious choice that means that you still have an investment in what happens to the server and the desire to keep doing what you can in that position to help out the team as a whole. Because of that remaining in the position or stepping down has traditionally been up to the individual DM, barring extraneous circumstances.

2. Administrative work. Those of us that can't run events can still help out with the administrative side of the job. This includes going over potential ban situations, new DM additions and helping them get up to speed on how our various tools and things work (such as transferring DC coins between accounts, rebooting the server when it craches, how to do bans and unbans etc), GST applications, requests and whatever other issues can pop up.

This is the side of the DM workload that can be the most energy draining one, and the most thankless part of the job. And as in-game DM time is the only way for DMs to earn "payment" in the form of DC coins (we can't earn them from eachother, that'd just be weird!), it's also the completely unpaid part. One could argue that you're paid in power, but I can probably speak for all of us when I say, yeaaah.. no. People who get pleasure out of that sort of powertrip don't get past the DM application part of the process (anymore, we had several problems with this in the past.) and even if that was the payout it's not worth the headache and stress that can come with the rest, especially the conflicts and discussions that come with that. The ONLY reason for anyone to want to do this part of the job is that you're invested in the server and keeping it going, at least that's my view on it and my reason for it.

3. There isn't a number limit on DMs. Having those of us that are partially or wholly inactive, save for some aspects of the work, stay on doesn't take away a spot from someone else. It simply means that there are more people around to try and stay on top of matters, such as vetting and approving new DMs. If all of us who don't have time to log in atm stepped down, that wouldn't improve the situation for the DMs that do. It'd mean they now bare the sole burdens of approving new DMs, reviewing requests and talking with players who have questions and issues, in short keeping the ball rolling.

I'll say that I once came close to stepping down, when I first gave the reasons for my absence on discord and got told that it simply means I don't care anymore, that very nearly killed any desire to stay on. But I got talked out of it, and decided to stay on. I then offered to step down a while back when I knew I wouldn't be able to return to in-game stuff when I hoped I would, but several members of the team wanted me to stick around and stay on to help with some of the things I listed above so I did. Then the last time when you brought this up in the DM skype chat a week or two ago, I said that I would be stepping down if people started using me staying on as a stawman because I don't want to be the source or reason for any drama and I don't get anything out actually staying on except the feeling of at least doing SOMETHING to help the team, and being the source of drama means that is gone. So if the consensus of the players is that those of us who either can't hop in-game or don't have the energy for it should step down, then that's what I'll do but that'll also mean that I'm done with the job until I send in a new application and potentially get approved again. You can't have it both ways, because you're either in and keep doing what you're doing or you're out.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Is there any potential way to assist DMs? Like do "DM assistance", like helping in area set up and shit? Like a pupil DMing? GST is there but it is very temporary.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

Officially? No, because we don't go half-way with it. You're either a DM or you're not, that way you are either an equal with all other DMs or not a member of the team, blurring that line is just asking for trouble.

Unofficially? Yep! People have been doing that in game since the server started, and the people that do are usually the ones that are interviewed for the DM position in the first place.

edit: I'll expand on the "unofficially" part of this for clarity:
Unofficially helping out the team means being someone that helps generate fun for the community, either through just straight up RP or doing player events, quelling drama and conflict before it escalates to a place where the DM team has to step in and generally being a good influence and/or leader. That kind of behavior gets noticed, helps out the DM team and greatly helps out the server and community as a whole.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I will never, ever be a DM here, I know that. But, how do you even end up helping a DM? How does it work? Just curious. Maybe I should take this to a PM and not go off topic.

But it is good to see some open and transparency between DMs and players.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

My thoughts mirror Grave's in a lot of points.

Alas I will briefly summon up my own throughts regardless, which I have already (as Grave pointed out in the week before you stepped down, so I did not ignore you there).

After having DMed almost every day for 4 years or so, I now had a longer time where I simply stepped back a little, mostly due to private and health reasons which I take the liberty to not elaborate here.

I remained in my DM position for the following reasons:

1. I was still reading the forum and answering PMs.
2. I still did run stuff for the dwarves and the djinn whenever I could.
3. For a long while I was one of the few who knew some of the older stuff about the server, be it lore or tool wise, and knew the power balance for some requests and new items other DMs wanted to make.
4. I couldn't really judge how long things will take to sort out so since I was "reachable" via forum and Skype almost all the time I figured the little time I can invest whenever possible is still better than nothing.

Point 4 is basically still my personal opinion and things I always told other DMs when I was very active in the past and they only had a few hours every now and then to offer. With the one caveat "don't leave people hanging, at last answer their direct questions to you". If another DM pointed me to a request that desperately needed my input, or thread that was pending on my answer, I always was reachable and did that. (or player for that matter)

Anyways, the week before Kamina stepped down I said I will check the next few months how much I can be on and contribute and then, if I notice I can't offer enough, I will step down.

Now, as you likely have noticed, I was around more in the request forum and DM side and did the djinn stuff more regularly since (mind, that talk wasn't long ago).

That said I realize "enough" is a very interpretable term. As Grave said, we have no DM limit, so it is not that we stop recruiting after amount x is reached. It is also so that server changes are always a group decision and a majority thing, so one DM (no matter how "old" he is can actually dictate the whole server alone, active or inactive, the rest outvotes him/her.

As said... "enough" is an interpretable term, I still feel even a few hrs a week is better than nothing and have always said so in the past too when it concerned other DMs and not me as long as they are at least reachable.

If the other DMs feel I should step down, I would. I also offered them in the context of that talk earlier mentioned.

So in short, I was sticking to my plan to see how much time I can actively invest until mid may or so and then discuss with the rest of the team if they feel that is helping and "enough" or not.

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Funnily, I said I did not want to stick around much in this thread. But, I think it is very important it is a mix of new and old. Old DM as some of you experienced proclaim, know the DMing and how things work. I think a good mix is whats essentially needed. Basically, what we got going in here is nice to see. It is also good to see the old guard come out in response and say their side to it. We need active DMs, but we also need someone who knows how things work. It is a mix. So I hope people do not feel forced to step down if they still feel they have something to give.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

In all honesty, people claim I have more sway than I actually do.

For some reason people have it in their head that everyone does what I say. That I am somehow the "head DM" (yes I have actually heard people call me that, and no, I am not, and no I do not even want to be) and that if I say no, then nothing goes.

I want to again, clearify here that this is NOT true.

The only area where I MAY have some sway is item balance. And that is not because I am the one deciding it, but because I have most experience in it and know almost all the items on this server and other DMs are often uncertain by it and do prefer not to decide it.

That is their decision and if they do not feel comfortable with deciding I get asked.

But even here it does not mean I have some kind of veto or whatever you think I have.

I am one vote and my vote counts no more than any other vote, or any less.

This goes for anything.

Server Changes, New DMs, Requests, Bans

name it and it is all the same. A majority vote. And every single vote counts the same.

If and I say IF some DM simply quote me because they feel "she must know" or whatever other reason then this is NOT my fault. Any DM and Ex DM who is honest here can hopefully attest that on contrary I have always asked the other DMs to NOT do that. It is mentioned in a multitude of requests too where I even explicitly posted "this is MY opinion, if I am outvoted then so be it!" because I knew of this problem.

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While that whole administrative work is good and all, for example Amarice is still the "Dedicated DM" for the Dwarves for example.

At the shrine we lately ran into the problem that we were waiting for help from the Dwarves and response from Kampos, both of which never came until I told another DM to just do it, whoever is in charge of those two has not even noticed what is going on probably.

It is simply weird to have people in DM spots that are completely out of the loop.

And on the "Unlimited DM Spots" point:

The problem is, that people see a massive DM Team and think "Oh nice, things should go quickly, there's so many people to handle it." And then they understandably get annoyed when the most basic things take Months to be done, if they are ever addressed at all.

And to top it off, how do you judge people applying for DM Spots if you never interact with anyone on the server?

Another thing to think about is balancing and the gameworld itself: How can there be positive change if the people judging if there will be change do not know what would have to be changed in the first place?

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I am but any DM is allowed to DM for them. And others have in my absence too. I am not angry if another DM runs plots witht he dwarves or whichever other place that is "assigned" to me. No DM has exclusive rights.



Easy. I don't.

If I do not know a player (which happened even when I was active every day for several hours, because... timezones) I post that I remain neutral, aka do not vote and let the other DMs who know them decide. So my "status" has no impact, neither positive nor negative.

Sune, for example, who is just admin to save the server if shit hits the fan, does never vote on server changes or DMs.

I vote when I feel I am able to make a proper vote. If I feel I can't, I don't.

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I am still not convinced you need this many inactive DMs for just administrative work.

And sorry but I think people are frustrated that the front end is completely ending in a bottleneck.

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I understand the frustration, hence why I draw the above conclusion that I will do my best to be around more and if I can't I will step down. Again, if the rest of the team feels I should step down regardless, I would accept that any time.

However, I stand by my point that things do not not progress because of a few inactive DM. There are very few things that require "that one DM and noone else" or that require a vote of all DMs.

I do not diminish your concerns, mind. I agree inactive DM are very frustrating. I was merely explaining my own position, my own thoughts, my conclusions and trying to clear up a few things that people seem to believe in regards of my "power" that simply are not true, luckily. I wouldn't even want that kind of power.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

We have been adressing that around 2-3 days ago actually and agreed to basically divide requests into easy and complicated requests.

Complicated requests being those that require heavy balancing and very very in depth lore (like very special races, for example full outsiders/dragons/undead/non humanoids), which will still require a majority of the DM (though please, if you wait for a specific DM, feel free to directly nudge them. As said if someone pointed me to a specific request in the past I have always heeded that)

Easy requests being most rebuilds, job log stuff, reskins, small RP and fluff items, Bottled Companions, Skin changers, which honestly just need to be checked for correctness (aka can this creature be a companion/familiar... does this person somehow have the ability to shapechange etc etc) and then a couple of Ok's are fine and after that if there is no active objection for someone that needs to be addressed it can be approved even with just 2-3 replies.

PrC are a bit of a in between here. They can fall under easy if it is existing and not something terribly exotic/complicated or can fall under complicated mostly if it is homebrew, seeing that means we bring new lore to the server to make it canon for our server. Which is great to do at times and important, but warrants a bit more in depth discussion.

Again though, not just for the players but also or even more for my fellow DM, if you wait for specific DM responses, please nudge them directly. And if after asking them directly they do not bother to reply within 2-3 days then decide without them. All DMs can reach eachother over skype and can see there if the message was recieved or not.


Still working on the details but we are working on a better concept here and we are aware that it is indeed an issue.

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As the present newbie DM, I can say that I am quite pleased with the amount of discussion all the DMs have offered behind the scenes on things. I know that many of the DMs don't have an outward presence, but like Amarice mentioned that is something that has come up in our talks. Several of our DMs don't go in-game very much at all, and I know that it is very frustrating as a player to never see them do anything, especially when it results in months-long requests for even simple things.

But it is something we're actively working on and discussing. The ideas Amarice came up with for streamlining the requests process are good ones, and I'm looking forward to seeing them implemented once all the kinks are straightened out.

Something I figured out a long while ago when I was just a (really persistent) player was that it is 100% okay to nudge your requests and poke DMs in PMs or in Discord/Skype (if they're okay with that, and they generally are). It's easy to get busy and forget about something you checked before and said "Oh, I'll respond to that later." So nudging and bumping is a good thing. Just don't do it every day. xD

But we definitely want you to know that we hear you, and we're working on ways to make this work out better. Some of us are also working on EE-related things, so it's extremely easy to get distracted and forget to do things. But bear with us! Let us know what you want and we'll address it.

Edit: Missed a word. Was sleepy.

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If you’re not active and a part of the server on a consistent and regular basis, yet you still have a tremendous amount of power and authority to influence the server in how you want it to be, that is a massive problem in itself.

My turn!
Firstly, all the exciting stuff happens while I am sleeping....


Yes, and even though there are a number of threads on this issue, I'm glad it's raised again. We talk about it a lot, but there actually needs to be actual action.

Specific to requests - If your request doesn't get a response in a reasonable time frame - bump it, pester a DM (PM or Discord etc - I'm always open to a PM!) and take a look at how the request is posted. Is it in the correct area? (some things get missed if in the wrong area) Is it easy to understand? (formatted, clear on request, backup reasoning) Is it long-winded and too long to read? (we don't usually need a book, just a paragraph or two). And when it's not a simple thing (or DMs are mostly voting to the no answer) I think often the delay is because there is discussion about it, but not actual response/action. The DMs (me included) could get better at saying no and giving an alternate (if there is one).

As one of the greener DMs around here, I do feel I need to have support from the longer standing DMs. Would it work better with fewer, but more active DMs? Maybe? Do we always have to have everyone's vote before we approve something? Maybe not?

We do need a plan.

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Cassie - Cheerful, glitter obsessed fey
Nada - Tomboy monk
Samina - Druid, still finding her way

You don't need to be a DM to answer questions or give advice.



Maybe not possible for everyone, but can't you just afk in the in-game DM-client while doing the administrative part? That way you'll get paid for this work.



This is a part of the reason for this topic. People feel like inactive DM's have as much say as the active ones, despite being out of touch.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

That is nothing we encourage to do. If you are in the DM client people will ask for assistance and such and expect a DM who is DM side to reply. If someone is idling afk DM side and people do not get any responses at all, it is super frustrating for them and they feel ignored.



While I do not want to downplay this, I know how annoying inactiveness is, in most cases when a DM is inactive, they hardly participate in such discussions either. Unless in rare cases where they are either directly asked or well it being an exception to the majority. But really in most cases when a DM goes MIA for a while they do stay MIA for those votes and discussions too. (naturally there are always some exceptions but those are that, exceptions.) Still, yes, it is far from ideal, agreed.

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People are also annoyed by administrative work not moving forward. My point is that if no reward for administrative work is a problem then finding a viable solution can’t be that hard.

Go afk on B instead, it’s often empty.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Also...I am not saying I mean you should step down, but...

You shouldn’t leave it up to the other DM’s to decide if you should remain as a DM or not. I haven’t been active in game for a while now, but back when I was active the active DMs were friendly and reasonable people, which is a good thing. That said, they aren’t the kind of people to push someone off the DM seat unless they did something very wrong. With that in mind I find deflecting the decision of you remaining as a DM or not to be rather weaselly. You are adults, you are able to decide for yourself what responsibility you can take on or not.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

i'd fought inactive dms and "dm apathy" since being a dm in 2006 and it was a huge point of contention in my return and short tenure back. it's always been a prime problem with the team. getting the (even active) team to respond to requests and discussions has always been the hardest part of trying to muster leadership on the team. after awhile i just realized that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. that's why you started seeing requests pushed through by a core team of 3 to 4 dms who would actually take the time to read through and answer requests.

i've always held the opinion that people who don't do the namesake duty of the responsibility shouldn't hold the responsibility. that however, has always been a minority opinion of the dm team. the expectation among the dm team is that you maintained a 1:4 ratio of dm hours to player hours - that is, you DMed one hour for every four you played. this ratio was eventually removed. there is no actual formal policy for the removal or punishment of a DM, so dms tend to sit around for years and years, despite anything that happens, be it inactivity or improper behavior, outside of something so egregious that it often caused disco to intervene. i'm living proof of that.

you can't make people do the parts of the job they don't want to do. ultimately the dm team has to police itself on these sorts of matters, and the opinion since 2006 is that, generally, the dm team does not care to do so. for the most part, inactive dms are ignored utterly when it comes to discussions and requests, outside of times when the team gets really internally annoyed because something is crucially important to that one person's field of knowledge, such as a plot or specific city or setting detail, so they don't tend to hold up discussions quite as much as you might think, nor have as much influence as you might think. so there's good and bad points there. it's when the active, or perceived influential/knowledgeable DMS don't respond that things start being held up.

dms don't afk on servers because they're paid DCs for the hours they accrue, so afking on servers means the DMs get paid for doing nothing. DMs have actually been fired for this in the past, or rather, said DM was so incensed at being called out with screenshot proof that he quit in a huff. no one lost sleep over it.

i don't want to look like im shitting on anyone since i don't really play or do anything anymore, just offering my hopeful insights as someone who DMed "back then" and also relatively recently. i hope things go up for the server.



oh, edit: this is totally true, amarice pretty consistently deflected the attempts to saddle her with extra sway or influence. she, like me, was pretty stubborn in her viewpoints, but she never insisted that she was right no matter what in such a way that destroyed discourse in my experience, and if she was outvoted she let the decision go through. a strong opinion doesn't necessarily mean she has any more 'vote power' than anyone else except maybe as she said on item balance, like sune, myself, ruce, and others over the years have had.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

If no rewards is the reason dm’s don’t do administrative work then I don’t see why the DM team can change their policy on this or find another solution. It’s in my opinion a lacking explanation.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

it doesn't have to do with the administrative work, it's mostly a policy regarding being online and not helping people and positively affecting the server when 65 people are online and you're the only DM.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I dont get it.

You say you do Administrative work such as DM Applications and Ban Discussions.

Then - when asked how you can decide such things given if you are not active on the server and dont know the players - you say you don't.

Mind I don't mean this in a rude way but I'm in the middle of a night shift, I'm dead tired and sick af, bear with me.

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If we had a huge growth in new players then it would be a common problem for those of us that are inactive IG currently, I agree, but sadly it's not the case in most situations.

More often than not, ban discussions or DM applications tend to concern players that have been around for a while, that we know either from DMing or RPing ourselves. If it's people we know, have interacted with or have observed either in how they behave on the forums, in the game in the past or on discord, that is something we can weigh in on. If it's logs or screenshots over a dispute or argument or something bannable, that is something we can weigh in on. If it's a balance issue, then that is something we can weigh in on if it's an area we know well such as class stuff, item power or spell stuff or requested PnP stuff. This latter part isn't really something you get out of touch with, but knowledge or experience you gather over the years and it's something that I think all of us have. The only part there would be not knowing new content, but since new content is discussed and balanced by the team before it goes live, it's not something that we don't tend to be aware of in most situations.

But if we don't feel certain enough to weigh in or say yes or no on something or feel we have a good picture on a situation, we don't. Because uninformed opinions pushing the discussion one way or the other in such cases is a bad thing both for the DM team and for the player(s) who would then risk being in an unfair situation because someone decided something without proper grounds.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

You cant judge people based on an impression they made on you half a year ago.

I think the input of people who haven't been around for more than two months just.. Isn't as valuable.

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Depends on the situation, but when we give that input that's concerning past behavior, it's prefaced with "based on my impressions of X from around Y I think ..." or some variation thereof so it's put in perspective and judged for what it is. People aren't sunk on bad old impressions, especially not if they've actually turned around in how they behave and act, BUT if there's a lot of them they do help paint a picture and can raise concerns if the changed behavir is here to stay or not and in cases where we have that concern we tend to wait and observe and see if it sticks or not, which is why cases like DM approval or bans can take a while before going trough. It all comes together to try and help us get a full picture of both past and present so we can try and make an informed opinion on how we believe they will behave going forward.
And despite the drawbacks of some of us not having as fresh of a perspective on someone or something as others, I don't think people are getting banned or approved unfairly or unjustly anymore. If you get either, it's because it was deserved, in my opinion anyway, such as it is.

Ill also add that if you have a request that you haven't gotten my input on yet or have questions or concerns or anything, then feel free to poke me on discord or on the forum with a PM. It's why I'm on the discord channel and reachable for most of the day. If someone gets overly spammy with me, I'll let them know, so don't worry about it being a bother unless you get told to chill for a bit.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I think you accidentally skipped the first post of mine. I never ever put that decision on my collegues. I said that I decided and set myself a goal/ultimatum 2 weeks ago that if I cannot be more active in the next 2 months (aka till mid may) I will step down. However IF my teammates prefer I step down right away then I will accept that. So far I have managed more activity I will have to see if I can keep it up without it colliding too much with the RL stuff going on.

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Re administrative work:

The issue is less that it is not rewarded. Some people, especially new DM (speaking of my general experience in the past not of our current new DM specifically) are a bit shy when it comes to that part in the beginning, especially when it comes to more "drastic" requests like races, homebrew PrC, strong items. They are unsure if they should reply already (yes, they are always encouraged to do).

Then some people simply do not feel all too comfortable saying no in public, some people simply do not like forums. Some people do not want to be the first DM to reply because they IC hang out with that person and then constantly get accused of favorism were they to reply first (a very very heavy problem in the past btw). Some people simply are short in time and somehow feel that spending that time IC DM side is more important than spending it on the forum. Sometimes people simply and plainly forget after they read it and decided "I have to think about this a few minutes before posting something so I will come back later because I am short in time now).

Some people are simply shy on the forums because stuff tends to explode in their face there super quick.

Of course ideally, every DM is good at everything, but that won't happen. If we set that as a standard then I am afraid we will be mostly DM-less XD


Anyways, still saying it is an issue we work on. I made a large post yesterday for the other DM to chime in about mainstreaming requests and such and about some suggestions of how we can improve maintenance and activity (in my opinion, wether it actually helps shall be seen, if we agree on all or some of the things. I am sure others will also add helpful suggestions and ideas).

So we are working on it and we do know and agree it is a problem. And yes, we work on it timely, so no it won't take forever!

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Amarice-Elaraliel, if you do end up stepping down, will that be a end to the Djinn? Or will another Dm take over?

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Imperial Knight of Ireland
E'Milliah Emberwatch follower of Helm the Vigilant One
Milly can run the Mino Maze in under 12 Parsecs

That would be for the other DMs to decide wether they want to continue it and if someone wants to take it over or not. Or if they want to recycle the items I made and implent them otherwise.

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We players wouldn't know, would we?

It's nice to have a DM tell us there's no problem, and I get that we don't want all the dirty laudry of past behavior aired publically, but when impressions are formed about players based simply on what they did at some point maybe once... There's a lack of transparency, and through that, a lack of a foundation for trust.

Hell, it's why people haven't brought this up earlier: Who knows whether speaking against the DMs now won't enrage the DMs, or even just one or two, to the point that, for example, requests are a lot tougher to deal with, or the next time somebody complains about them, they'll get a strike, or any number of other ways DMs could exert power uncontested?

It has been a rather contsant topic over all the years of amia.

The issue with making everything public is mostly that perma-bans are rare so mostly it is "just" bans. And even per-bans can be lifted if time has past and the person makes an appeal and convinces the team major issues have changed.

These people probably would have a lot of trouble returning if all they did was aired on the forum for everyone.

So protecting the offender is one reason, protecting the victims another. Permanent bans often (not always) are cases of haressment, sexual or otherwise. And even if we do not voice names, with a smaller players and people actively seeing who hangs out around whom it doesn't take much to figure out.

Permabans are really really rare. I can still count them on my fingers with all my time on the team.

Personally, I sometimes actually am tempted to just post that shit in public when people go cry about how unfair the team is and that we just bully some innocent people who speak up against us. We have never banned anyone simply for disagreeing with the team. But simply posting all offenses of people is a huge can of worms.

It saddens me though if people really think ALL of us simply ban people because it tickles us fancy or they annoy us. One DM cannot ban anyone longer than 24 hrs, so you basically are saying all of us are corrupt and have always been seeing DMs change frequently and any new DM can see every single ban and reasoning when they become a DM and could nudge it back to life if they felt it was unjust.

Edit:
A brief look over the perma bans I would say it may be 1 per year if even. So it isn't really something that happens all the time and a lot. If you have concerns about a specific ban though, you are naturally always free to approach the team about it and we will share what we feel we can without putting anyone in a bad spotlight or shaming anyone in public, to ease your concerns.

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I can say that DM's have not always approved my requests for their own reasons, but I never felt a disapproval of one request made an impact on the next request. Instead handled case by case. On some points I have even strongly disagreed with a DM on their view on the request and still do. Yet it doesn't mean I'll turn it to something it is not, such as a Dm's "attempt to ruin my requests every turn". I've also discussed my views with DM's of their events I participated and if I did not agree with something. It was a discussion and I was still welcome to the events or next events even.

To be honest, some of the bans I have seen were entirely justified. I'll trust the DM team and their ability to handle such decisions. I don't approve the attempt of creating them vs. Us mentality. If people fail to understand the we players create the atmosphere together and that includes everyone, then were at impasse here and wont get far creating an active place to roleplay in.

I love to see that the DM team is providing lenghty explanations in this topic. Thank you for that. Also great to see we are able to have a healthy conversations over difficult topics. I

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Bans aren't really that much of an issue, which is odd coming from me probably considering I'm obviously rather bias in this sort of thing. Looking back at the most recent ban the ban ultimately did more harm then good in my opinion and that fault lies entirely in the teams handling of it. The lack of transparency and especially communication in dealing with both this matter and the server as a whole led to an additional 4-5 people quitting the server which naturally cascaded into the other 5ish people having their RP torn to shreds forced to conjure random excuses for the whole thing which is now beyond their control all the while still left with the absolute feeling that the DM team doesn't seem to care.

Understandably I got pretty pissed over the above ordeal and its likely some DMs that read this will get pissed for me bring it up in this light. But im not doing it be a ****, I'm doing it to point out that the DMs hold a huge sway over the players opinions especially in regards to having fun on the server. Now that's not to say that DMs bear the entirety of this responsibility, it's to say that many believe the team has been lapse in this aspect for some time now. A lot more players have likely left the server due to their perception and experiences with the DM team than those banned by the team.

So then how do you think bans should be handled? I'm not sure what you're referring to with lack of transparency and communication. Everyone who gets banned is informed of the ban and its duration. The evidence behind the ban isn't currently being handed out because it can and has lead to people going after whoever reported them, these reasons have already been given above. We also don't tell people who ask about the reasons for it or the evidence, regardless of their reasons for it, also for reasons listed above. If you want that information you can ask the people you know that were involved in it all, and decide for yourself if you believe them on the matter or not.

What do people want beyond that?
Transparency in the form of evidence handed out to the public or shown to the one who got banned? That will keep people from sending in evidence if they fear reprisals from the offender or their circle of friends.
What sort of communication do you want regarding bans beyond what is given? Public announcements? It's currently left up to the banned individual if they want to tell people or not. Public shaming or public statements isn't part of the punishment of a ban.

As for what happens to the RP involving the one who gets banned, that isn't something that's on the team to sort out nor our fault. THEY are the ones who acted in a manner that warranted a ban so the blame on what happens to the RP that gets left up in the air is on them to sort out. People who get banned are entirely free to sort their affairs if they want to make sure they don't leave people hanging, they just can't do that in game, they are free to give a reason why their character is gone and so on.

I'll freely admit that I've been well aware of some banned individuals flat out lying either on the forums or to other members of the community, both about the circumstances behind the ban and other matters surrounding it, and in those cases I've personally advocated for a public statement on that ban in particular to let the truth out, especially when those individuals are using it to attack the community or DM team. HOWEVER the issue with that is again that no matter how we censor the evidence, there will be ways of finding out who send it in and that isn't something we would ever want because it will break the trust between us and the ones who report people for offenses, rulebreaking or even just suspect it. So no matter how badly we might want to so that we can set the record straight, it's not something we can do in most cases.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I do not really want to linger on the topic since im currently...well banned as a lot of the community probably know by now. I do not want to get a permanent one or rile up any community members who might dislike to see me posting but.

To be able to see evidence, censored such can be good to see where people did wrong. I know why I am banned, but from what I understand there was more to it than what I know. That might be good to see. If a DM censors it and show "This part you said here, was taken this way, this is why this goes under A3" if a player want to see hwo and why. I also think a possible way to atleast defend/explain yourself why this happended would be good. I am not blaming anyone but often, not all bans happen because a player is malicious but perhaps driven to it by a two sided struggle or simply put, having severe issues IRL. There is a lingering fear of talking about it, which makes me think I will be permabanned.

I do hope, as one who is currently banned. That I did not overstep any boundaries. Nor do I think I have spread any lies about it. But, it is a bit frightening as mentioned to not really know to much, not much is transparent. My solution to this would be to join less parties, communicate less with people and leave the Amia Discord which I already done.

I although have no idea why this is part of the topic. Do we have a ban epidemic on Amia?

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

It totally slipped my mind about Budly, sorry man! I suppose I just see you on Discord and here so much I assume your still here in full!

-One- of the more recent bans then was nothing short of an ambush, though the real problem doesn't lie in the player itself being ambushed, its the players around them having to live with the sudden result of months long processing. Whilst yes you can argue that the player did the crime and thus should serve the crime, and no I'm not going to argue as to whether they should or shouldn't have been banned, that's solely in the realm of the DM's, the complete and utter lack of communication and aid in any form in both before and after this whole ordeal was the direct reason for these people leaving the server. You took what was already a shitty situation then proceeded to take a proverbial shit on it. Now, its highly unlikely that this was some sort of premeditated conspiracy but instead a disconnect between player and staff. A disconnect unaided by inactive and understaffed DMs.

I'll make it as clear as I can manage at 5am so that you and anyone else don't have to worry about it anymore.

Talking about your ban or about bans in general or asking us the "why" or what you did wrong or whatever in a civil and adult manner, is never going to get you banned. What gets you banned is breaking the rules, like violating the forum rules, which can get you forum banned. You don't get banned for disagreeing with us or disliking us or even hating us. The difference here is if you decide to go and be a duche about that, be disruptive and harassing people over it, trolling or flaming and similar behavior which then gets you banned, but NOT because of the message you had, such as "DM's bad MKAY!" but because of HOW it was done.
When someone crosses that line that gets them banned, it's given the same weight the target was a player or a DM, we don't give ourselves special treatment in that regard, speaking for myself I generally tend to take such things far more seriously if it's done towards a player than if someone is doing it towards me.
IF it's something you want to discuss that involves specific situations, however, I'd personally advice to ask to discuss it privately since topics that involve those types of situations that generally devolve into screaming matches, shitposting and forum bans going out at times.

And for further clarification: an individual DM can only ban you temporarily IG, never for an extended duration or permanently, those bans are ALWAYS a team decision and vote. This means that you're not going to get banned if a DM dislikes or hates you or has personal issues or differences with you.

The only reason DMs even have the power to ban people instantly, is for those extreme cases where it's warranted and needed; such as when we had a bunch of cheaters log in and 1 shot everyone with level 1 characters with hacked stats, including plot set immortal NPCs and being overall complete duchebags and disruptive to everything and everyone on the server. That ban is then only temporary until the team goes in and yays or nays an extended or permanent ban.

Nor are you ever forbidden from appealing your ban, you're completely free to do so, always. However that doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to get anywhere with it, but you're not barred from trying.


I'm sorry you feel that way but the norm surrounding bans to date hasn't been to step in and help resolve potential disruption that can come from a player being banned, unless it's directly asked for. If you need help or assistance with something, then ask for it or nudge one of us on discord or skype or the forums and say "So.. how should we go from here?" or something to that effect. It's rather difficult for us to know if people need DM assistance to resolve a situation unless it's asked for, since those things are usually sorted out by the players involved on their own.

Also the intent is never to ambush anyone, but we don't announce it to people if we're discussing situations or behavior that can lead to a ban, because before a decision is reached and the player(s) involved are informed of that, there is no ban. Most of those discussions never result in a ban, but either in no action being needed or a talking to or warning. And people are generally given warnings if it's a first offense and given the reasons for the warning, unless it's severe enough to warrant a direct ban. With bans we always strive to err on the side of caution and give people the benefit of the doubt or the opportunity to change, barring extreme cases, such as a severe infraction or continued bad behavior or rule violations after one or more warnings or talking to's were given on that matter already.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

In dealing with this first bit I suppose honesty's the best approach. Ive been approached by a few people that dont really feel comfortable posting publicly or talking directly to the DMs, someone however reached out to me and left me with an anonymous email and forum account of sorts. If you want something posted here without your name being tied to it you can email this account
Xx7-21-25--6-1-23-11-6-19xX@hotmail.com
Or as Kamina stated at the beginning you can private message him. I will not be including the email address it came from in forwarding it to this board, and you can email this account through an anonymous account of your own if you wish. Though I may quickly skim the contents of the message to ensure they are both relevant and acceptable.

EDIT - Looks like they mispoke. They didn't make a forum account so Ill post any messages under this account and clearly label them as from Anonymous.



I don't think you really understood the concern. I doubt many care about the specifics of what goes on with a ban because the majority of them are unlikely to be banned. I doubt ill be banned for this conversation short of divulging into needless insults and vulgarity. My concern lies with the teams seeming lack of care for its players. Many of the people involved reached out to staff members during this period both before the ban in regards to getting DM assistance/permission and after, we pretty much got ignored. In addition it should've been relatively obvious that we were going to be impacted by this ban and not a single team member took the time or initiative to communicate with us. This sort of lack of communication is one of many that shapes the perception that the DM simply doesn't care.

All bans I have seen seemed to be reasonable. I might not agree with the respective length of the ban period but they were not unreasonable.

Just my two cents.

Also I don't think anyone will have a harder time with requests for criticising DMs here.


That said I do agree that it feels like people are getting ignored.

West Cordor was ignored for months until everyone left and I am still more than angry about that.

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Speaking of which, are we going off topic now speaking of personal bans and personal RP situations being abandoned?

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

All bans have been discussed at length and dealt with as peacefully as possible, IMHO. There are a number of perma-ban cases which have been uplifted. And those who have been banned and are back playing are never treated differently to any other player regarding requests or anything else.

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Cassie - Cheerful, glitter obsessed fey
Nada - Tomboy monk
Samina - Druid, still finding her way

What if the community treat them differently? Do that go under any of the rules?

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

That is all on you.

Back to the topic at hand please.

It's simply annoying to me, that we have so many DMs; yet plans if factions get plain ignored and shoved aside because only one DM actually works IG and you don't even get an explanation, you're just sitting there waiting for a response or any kind of interest at the things you presented for the DM team to look at.

It's not only annoying, it drove a - excuse my french - FUCKTON of people away from the server.

Really. A LOT of people, who I can never bring back because they are beyond pissed.

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