A few years ago Epic Arcane Defiance gear got a Nerf. I think the /5 magic resist was taken away. With an update all Gear where wiped of that bonus. It basically crippled the Gp value of what Pc's were willing to pay for it. Now in the new epic loot bin the same named armor in Green text is available with the change of losing lesser Spell mantle and replaced with +2 Universal save. If you happen to have Mystra's Spell book that lesser mantle is absolite. I think folks with the old school version should be able to trade it in for the new one since it was done so dirty before. *Shrugs* Just how i feel.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
I don't see the old Arcane Defiance armour being made obsolete because of the Tome of Mystra. It allows you to be able to cast Lesser Spell Mantle twice per day instead of only once. Granted, that does require that you have to be wearing the armour, but it is still a useful thing to have in certain situations.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
I don't see the old Arcane Defiance armour being made obsolete because of the Tome of Mystra. It allows you to be able to cast Lesser Spell Mantle twice per day instead of only once. Granted, that does require that you have to be wearing the armour, but it is still a useful thing to have in certain situations.
If any of your Characters has the new green text version and wears that armor would you trade for the older version without the magic and divine resistance?
5/- magic and 5/- divine never should have gone in to begin with, and whoever spearheaded that decision made a very poor one.
Regardless if it never should have had those stats it did. And I personally know back in the day a Cloth version sold for 30 million gold. The nerfed version in today's market, you would be extremely lucky to find anyone willing to pay three million gold for it. Probably far less now that there is a new version out with +2 Uni saves. Anyone with the older nerfed version gets the short end of the stick in my eyes.
5/- magic and 5/- divine never should have gone in to begin with, and whoever spearheaded that decision made a very poor one.
Again, I challenge this notion. Magic and divine are not special nor are they sacred cows. They're no different than fire or cold. Paladins and blackguards are not inviolate and X Missile Storm is still cheesy af so there's no difference in nerfing them with a resistance as anything else.
I'd like to hear an argument otherwise, honestly.
_________________ Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
5/- magic and 5/- divine never should have gone in to begin with, and whoever spearheaded that decision made a very poor one.
Again, I challenge this notion. Magic and divine are not special nor are they sacred cows. They're no different than fire or cold. Paladins and blackguards are not inviolate and X Missile Storm is still cheesy af so there's no difference in nerfing them with a resistance as anything else.
I'd like to hear an argument otherwise, honestly.
Yeah! What he said!!!
_________________ ImperialKnight of Ireland E'Milliah Emberwatch follower of Helm the Vigilant One Milly can run the Mino Maze in under 12 Parsecs
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
I fail to see the reason behind divine resist nerf myself, but I can understand why magic resist nerf happened.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
5/- magic and 5/- divine never should have gone in to begin with, and whoever spearheaded that decision made a very poor one.
Again, I challenge this notion. Magic and divine are not special nor are they sacred cows. They're no different than fire or cold. Paladins and blackguards are not inviolate and X Missile Storm is still cheesy af so there's no difference in nerfing them with a resistance as anything else.
I'd like to hear an argument otherwise, honestly.
5/- magic turns maxed IGMS from 120 to 70 and turns non maxed IGMS into "fucking irrelevant". it's not 5/- resist, it's 50/-.
It also removed magic missile and ILMS from the game. It also makes you immune to the bleed out damage, messing up that entire system.
Issaac missile storm is broken as hell. On a server where the number of mythal slots you have on gear is a thing, having to sacrifice a slot for that 5/- magic resist very much balances it out. Not like casters don't have other spells to use. But hey, caster-classes aren't the best at everything on Amia, right?
As for the subject here - the cloths are pretty bad, and I think players should have been compensated back then, yes. That is a bit late now though I believe.
The real impact of those changes (along with removing the black label potions at around the same time) was that this server nearly became 'fucking irrelevant'... as a hoard of people quit and have yet to return, and probably never will. Amia will never fully recover from a series of bad decisions carried out in short order.
The lesson for the Dev team is: 'Never take anything away from the players'.
Have they learned it? Doubtful...
The lesson for the players: 'Beware the amount of time and effort you put into your character because that cool thing you have today might be gone tomorrow.'
Last edited by angst360 on Sun, Dec 02 2018, 19:49 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, dwelling on the past changes, and how the team at the time were literally worse than... I don't know. Asmodeus, Orcus, whatever... That diesn't help the server either.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
I'll ask again -
What is gamebreaking about 5/- divine resistance? Again, I can understand the magic resist, but the divine eludes me.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Let's try to stay optimistic, guys! I think we're doing wonderfully lately!
_________________
Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
BTW, that divine resist still gets applied in game. However, once you log back into A the template gets upgraded and it becomes +5 lore... which is not an equivalent in any way, shape, or form. And a really poor workaround that is worthy of derision.
SO, if you have no reason to ever go back to A, you can certainly have that divine resist on your Dwarf or UD race.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
In my opinion it was a terrible idea to give the Armor those qualities. It completely strips a character who's entire build (Evoke Wiz) to having max magical damage cut inhalf with a piece of gear. I feel like Magical Damage / Positive Damage / and Divine Damage should not have a counter part of "Resist" in the game.
I legitimately don't get the problem here. Mages have a lot more in their arsenal than IGMS. Like, A LOT. So why is that particular spell such a big deal? Besides, as already said a few times, it's not 5/- you're getting, it's 50/-. That doesn't really sound fair to me. It's like saying there's builds that can crit over 300, so i want 50% damage immunity, because it's dumb that someone can kill another character in a single round.
Divine, I honestly aren't too sure, apart from the fact that it will protect you from two things: Cleric spells, and weapon damage. Weapon damage, I feel like having stuff that goes around immunity is cool, especially when a literal blessing from a deity would be worse than just a weapon with 1d10 extra physical damage on it. As said multiple times, by many people, BGs and Pallies don't feel divine DR at all,because their damage is hardcoded to bypass immunities.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
robbi320 wrote:
I legitimately don't get the problem here. Mages have a lot more in their arsenal than IGMS. Like, A LOT. So why is that particular spell such a big deal? Besides, as already said a few times, it's not 5/- you're getting, it's 50/-. That doesn't really sound fair to me. It's like saying there's builds that can crit over 300, so i want 50% damage immunity, because it's dumb that someone can kill another character in a single round.
Divine, I honestly aren't too sure, apart from the fact that it will protect you from two things: Cleric spells, and weapon damage. Weapon damage, I feel like having stuff that goes around immunity is cool, especially when a literal blessing from a deity would be worse than just a weapon with 1d10 extra physical damage on it. As said multiple times, by many people, BGs and Pallies don't feel divine DR at all,because their damage is hardcoded to bypass immunities.
Lets say a person built a character as a Level 30 Wizard who is focused in Evocation (So a Evoker). That Evoker will use IGMS as a primary weapon in their arsenal because all their other weapons are pratically useless. Don't forget there are 50% (Was 100%) immunity rings of Fire, Electric, Acid and Cold. That takes out Ice Storm, Fire Storm, Fire Strike, e.t.c. A huge portion of their arsenal. This spell, IGMS, has always been the go to because no one should have a resist that'll cut this damage in half. IT only seems fair to have a Evoker have /1/ spell that is completely trustworthy. Otherwise this Evoker will just cast Timestop, summon stuff, and GS / hide. That's a huge waste to a Evoker.
Now look at it from another perspective. That, to me, is like having a level 30 Weaponmaster and having nearly all the damage from their entire build taken away. I'm pretty sure that's why we don't have Death Ward. We just have Stoneskin / G. Stoneskin. Sure.. We have Acid Sheath... Easily bypassed by Acid Ring. (Remember, again, it was 100%. ARound the time this actual armor was in the game the rings were at full power).
It's only balanced to not have this on any type of equipment.
Find a child playing happily with a favourite toy. Then take the toy away... see how the child reacts towards you in the future. That is the problem that I believe the op started the thread with the intention of trying to solve. To simplify it further, the problem here is human nature.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
To me there are far more issues than this one little Magical / Divine Resistance to deal with. Not that I agree it should've ever went in the Module to begin with. For example, I'd like to see Shifter get some love after that major downgrade they got earlier 2017(?) late 2016(?).
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Belt of the Hard Road basically strips mages of any CC spells.
Rings of Elemental immunity actually *does* half the damage of evocation spells.
Rings of Evasion turns casters reflex-based spells almost useless (Except for low reflex PCs)
Not sure why having 5/- magical resistance is so bad. It only halves the damage of one maximised spell. Horrid Wilting can do close to 200 damage on a good roll still. And there is no other method of resistance against magic damage in game. And 70 damage that cannot be resisted is still pretty damn good.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Sorry, but if you are looking for someone to sing harmony to your Kumbaya, I'm not your guy.
No offense but if you're just gonna moan and complain about mechanical changes for a server that you don't play on or contribute too?
Bye felicia, we don't want you. Get in game instead of lurking, we'll be happy to play with and RP with you.
No offence taken. I do play regularly (time permitting), perhaps we just aren't in game at the same time.
And what is this 'we' business? It's interesting that you view yourself as a self-appointed spokesman for 'us'... But, perhaps that's why we don't game together. Who can say. I had better end it on 'Peace out', before I get branded as toxic again for not drinking the kool-aid.
Let's not pretend Casters aren't already walking Demi-Gods. There's absolutely no penalty mentally, physically or spiritually to them. With but one simple rest there back to a 100% lock stock and loaded to go again. No days or weeks it would really take for them to recover from using so much power, relearning spells, or replenishing there divine well of Godly favors.
robbi320-Nicely pointed out that there's so much more in a casters arsenal than just IGMS.
bobofwestoregonusa-You don't have a leg to stand on. In the past, you would only log into the server, stay in the beginning areas and Bash Dm's and the server. In one night I logged into three different alt log accounts and you hit them all up talking mad shit. You are being a hypocrite and sounding as if you speak for the player base as a whole. I've never had a problem with you before and I still don't, but i won't let shit like that fly.
_________________ ImperialKnight of Ireland E'Milliah Emberwatch follower of Helm the Vigilant One Milly can run the Mino Maze in under 12 Parsecs
Would a 5% Immunity still have the same problems as a -/5 resist?
Not exactly. It can be better or worse solely due to the amount of damage being dealt. Anything under 100 damage means it’s weaker than 5/, anything above makes it stronger
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Joined: 20 Nov 2010 Location: Inside a Magic Bag full of True Strike Potions
Would it be worth considering that as a replacement for the removed -/5 resistances? Or even have it as the updated reward from the Phane just to throw that in here?
Not really. The old version of the -/5 resist was a 5% immunity in the case of the divine resistance things. Both for axed for reasons mentioned above. It was both an mechanical and a lore question. It would require a discussion within the team to go down on that route.
_________________ Lord Hector Sylgerand Glendil Fettian, the black bard
So what the people are saying is that 5 resist on positive energy is bad, because it blocks one powerful mage spell? That is the sole reason?
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
What's trying to be communicated is that a lot of the more powerful options for mages are needed or made useless by a few factors
Permafreedom
Crowd control nerfs
The availability and ability to build to max all your saves if you know how
IGMS is not the showstopper people think it is and people rarely have room for more than three casts of it if they are effectively preparing their spellbooks. A maximized storm loses almost half it's damage to a passive piece of gear, and if you tome your heal chug right and gear con there isn't a ton of trouble surviving most missle storm tactics. A lot of wizard/sorcerer tools don't work as well anymore so you habe to rely on what does, and most of that is faceless crowd control (that's been nerfed) and saveless damage. Wizards aren't unstoppable killing machines, they're just capable of hitting some good numbers on paper.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Budly, if there is only a single spell that does positive, then why should the resist even be a thing? There's some types of damage that, IMO, shouldn't be avoidable. Because it basically comes from -the gods-. While they, in PnP, usally are something around level 20-60, in out setting, they're far above that. Likely something along the lines of levels 50/60-100, at least. Much like how a level 30 squashes a level one in a single hit, how do you want to protect against something like that? Divine is basically that. magic damage and positive have a bit less of a leg to stand on, positive -kind of- being another element. And there is an item with 10/- positive, actually, doesn't mean it's requestable, though, much like with 10/- bludgeon. It exists on an item, but if ou really want it, use that item. (the example fails a bit, since the pos resist item is/was sold by the djinn, and he's rather sporadic, currently, but still) Magic damage is also kind of just "force". Not like elements, not like physical, it's basically just "damage". If you want to protect from spells, get SR. But "force", in and by itself, you can't really protect against that. There's -a- spell, I think, and it kind of makes sense for hat. For some random piece of gear? Not really.
And the gear, as mentioned, already is rather powerful, being +5, 32 SR, and +2 uni saves.
For comparison, the other epic armors offer 1 regen and some resistances, or not even the regen. Of the epic armor selection, I'd say with the SR and +2 uni saves, it's already stronger than mythals allow, and pretty good. Admittedly, I wouldn't wear either, but that's because the character(s) I play already have 32-ish SR, and I feel it. At least in PvE, and even a few PvP cases, 32 SR is pretty useful.
Amia should not be balanced on PVP alone, hell, the main focus should be PVM and Mages already have the easiest time here.
There are plenty of other classes that could use some love before casters should be considered again.
But to get back on topic: While Magic Resistance 5/- might have been a bit over the top, it did counter the stupid IGMS Spam which coincidentally made a comeback after the nerf and it was as silly as it used to be.
IGMS spam is a really good way to run put of spells that win a fight, and also doesn't work well against groups of people to be honest. You'd be better off doing the reduced damage of horrid wilting because your damage is at least consistent. Mages don't really kill groups of people without resorting to things like trapping unless said group is really low level or has rediculously low combined hp or can't make a fort save vs wail for some reason.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Budly, if there is only a single spell that does positive, then why should the resist even be a thing? There's some types of damage that, IMO, shouldn't be avoidable. Because it basically comes from -the gods-. While they, in PnP, usally are something around level 20-60, in out setting, they're far above that. Likely something along the lines of levels 50/60-100, at least. Much like how a level 30 squashes a level one in a single hit, how do you want to protect against something like that? Divine is basically that. magic damage and positive have a bit less of a leg to stand on, positive -kind of- being another element. And there is an item with 10/- positive, actually, doesn't mean it's requestable, though, much like with 10/- bludgeon. It exists on an item, but if ou really want it, use that item. (the example fails a bit, since the pos resist item is/was sold by the djinn, and he's rather sporadic, currently, but still) Magic damage is also kind of just "force". Not like elements, not like physical, it's basically just "damage". If you want to protect from spells, get SR. But "force", in and by itself, you can't really protect against that. There's -a- spell, I think, and it kind of makes sense for hat. For some random piece of gear? Not really.
And the gear, as mentioned, already is rather powerful, being +5, 32 SR, and +2 uni saves.
For comparison, the other epic armors offer 1 regen and some resistances, or not even the regen. Of the epic armor selection, I'd say with the SR and +2 uni saves, it's already stronger than mythals allow, and pretty good. Admittedly, I wouldn't wear either, but that's because the character(s) I play already have 32-ish SR, and I feel it. At least in PvE, and even a few PvP cases, 32 SR is pretty useful.
You might say divine is not the same, sure, it is not but nor do that have any resistance either, one random drop I barely count, its just one thing circumventing he "rule". Magic is just not some "force", its the weave, arcane.
Also, remove healing potions and all these issues be removed when you people say spells are useless, no shit they are useless whent a fat dragon disciple just takes a sip of healing potion and boom, full HP if he sits on 20%.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
2 things
1. If magic damage really is the same as all the other ones, people wouldn't be advocating this strongly to implement it again. In the case of magic resist, the fact is that it tends to block far more than the 5/- damage per hit, as several of the magic damage dealing spells deal damage in smaller chunks, rather than 1 big hit. And it's a spellgroup which is already easily countered by healkits and/or mantle spam from items or scrolls.
2. One reason that hasn't been mentioned so far, and is also one of the big reasons for it not being in the game anymore, is the fact that we DMs use both damage types in plenty of events BECAUSE no players have DR or immunity to either, and the same goes for certain PVE content. PvP has little to do with it in the end. By not giving players access to DR to either damage type, it gives both DMs and Devs an easier time when balancing some PvE or event content, a process which is already extremely time-consuming. And because of that, it's not going back in.
_________________ Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
1. If magic damage really is the same as all the other ones, people wouldn't be advocating this strongly to implement it again. In the case of magic resist, the fact is that it tends to block far more than the 5/- damage per hit, as several of the magic damage dealing spells deal damage in smaller chunks, rather than 1 big hit. And it's a spellgroup which is already easily countered by healkits and/or mantle spam from items or scrolls.
2. One reason that hasn't been mentioned so far, and is also one of the big reasons for it not being in the game anymore, is the fact that we DMs use both damage types in plenty of events BECAUSE no players have DR or immunity to either, and the same goes for certain PVE content. PvP has little to do with it in the end. By not giving players access to DR to either damage type, it gives both DMs and Devs an easier time when balancing some PvE or event content, a process which is already extremely time-consuming. And because of that, it's not going back in.
How does it implement the DR? Is it for each D6? Cause that would be insane. Then I can see why 5 dr is enormous but from what I know of DnD its 5 dr distracting from the full damage, right?
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
That's exactly how it works yes, for IGMS the DR is applied for every missle that strikes and each missle is treated like an individual instance of damage. So 2d6 goes from 12 maximized to 7 each time it hits which is a massive amount of damage reduction. The spell goes from doing 120 damage to 70, putting it honestly below Horrid Wilting on a successful save in some cases without the added benefit of being beneficial in a wide area against a lot of players at once.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
That's exactly how it works yes, for IGMS the DR is applied for every missle that strikes and each missle is treated like an individual instance of damage. So 2d6 goes from 12 maximized to 7 each time it hits which is a massive amount of damage reduction. The spell goes from doing 120 damage to 70, putting it honestly below Horrid Wilting on a successful save in some cases without the added benefit of being beneficial in a wide area against a lot of players at once.
On that spell and magi missile yes, DR blocking its damage type, sure.
But a big blast doing a set amount of dmg, as in one blast, it would only bock 5 dr correct?
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
You, for example horrid wilting would do its damage, but only have 5 of its total blocked because it is a single large attack. The problem with 5/- magic is that specifically Missle Storm is reduced so drastically by it, making the armor more or less a reduction of nearly half the spells damage.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
You, for example horrid wilting would do its damage, but only have 5 of its total blocked because it is a single large attack. The problem with 5/- magic is that specifically Missle Storm is reduced so drastically by it, making the armor more or less a reduction of nearly half the spells damage.
Well, I think its a valid thing. The spell in itself is powerful. Im honestly suprised shield do not fully block it to force players to do other things. In itself, to much resistance and high lvls with powerful utility like heal potion is a spot where I think DnD is starting to collapse a bit. Pre-dominantly in my view point lvl 1-15 is the lvls most people end up in with some high lvl 16-20 is the limit where most people seem to enjoy it. Over 20 and we are getting into divinity and Amia even need to block that by saying we are not lvl 30 in lore to keep us from smacking a god on the rear and take their portfolio An Amia character would more or less conquer the Core of Ravenloft since there is not a Darklord over lvl 20 I think. Count Strahd is high lvl but not that high and Azlin is a lvl 18 I think caster who cannot learn new spells as his curse. We would obliterate em mechanically.
What I mean to say is, lvl 20+ is a damn mess in NWN.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Are you suggesting shield, a first level spell, that also lasts for a rather long time, and is commonly found on items, should block IGMS, a sixth level spell?! Balance!
P.S.: If the remark about RDDs when you answered to my post was meant about Alex, that's a pretty low blow. If anything, 50/- DR versus IGMS would make a weakness of his smaller. Nonetheless, going around and bashing other peoole for the characters they play, I'd thought that was above even you.
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An Amia character would more or less conquer the Core of Ravenloft since there is not a Darklord over lvl 20 I think. Count Strahd is high lvl but not that high and Azlin is a lvl 18 I think caster who cannot learn new spells as his curse. We would obliterate em mechanically.