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Masterbaker
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 04 2018, 20:36 PM 



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I had this idea a long time ago but I never really brought it up.
Is it possible to change parry to just give bonus AC based on ranks the same way as tumble?
So for people using two weapons, having 30 ranks in parry would just give 6 AC when the skill was activated.


 
      
Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 04 2018, 21:06 PM 

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Masterbaker wrote:
Is it possible to change parry to just give bonus AC based on ranks the same way as tumble?
So for people using two weapons, having 30 ranks in parry would just give 6 AC when the skill was activated.


If adding more attacks per round based on base Parry skill when activated were possible I think that would work better. You can only parry an attack per your attack per round, making dual kama wielding monks the only ones that could pull off that crappy skill.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 04 2018, 21:49 PM 



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And even then, you can only parry the first attack from one opponent each flurry. So, no matter how many attacks someone has, you can only parry a max of 3 attacks from one opponent per round.

Would love to see something like this, but I don't know how much this would make a difference, tbh. (6 AC seems like too much, anyway, since you have an entire second weapon you're attacking with, means a dexer dualweilding will have massive sneaks and still 60-ish AC)

But I do feel like it would be cool idea... How much people would use it... No idea.


 
      
maglorine
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 04 2018, 22:15 PM 

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The Arelith concept appeals to me more than extra AC.

Parry: Parried attacks have +5 AB and damage bonus equal to half the parry skill up to 20 ranks, and 1/4 beyond 20 ranks. Skill bonus from items count. Parry is a toggled mode, like the modified (Improved) Expertise.

Makes sense that if your attack is parried, you are thrown off and exposed, hence the AB and Damage bonus on Riposte.

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The Blue Hand
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 04 2018, 22:27 PM 

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It works on Ravenloft because AC there is so low...

But if there's something not needed on Amia, it's more AC...


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 05 2018, 12:06 PM 

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Ðraco wrote:
Masterbaker wrote:
Is it possible to change parry to just give bonus AC based on ranks the same way as tumble?
So for people using two weapons, having 30 ranks in parry would just give 6 AC when the skill was activated.


If adding more attacks per round based on base Parry skill when activated were possible I think that would work better. You can only parry an attack per your attack per round, making dual kama wielding monks the only ones that could pull off that crappy skill.


Incorrect. Parry can only parry 3 attacks per round MAX. No matter if you have 3 attacks per round or 50. Only the 1st attack in an attack flurry is blocked and attack flurries cap at 3 flurries per round, not 4 or 5. More here.


Parry is useful, but only if you invest heavily in it, and generally only really strong on dex builds with epic dodge.

Parry allows you to basically ignore the first attack made in an attack flurry if your parry is high enough to beat the AB of your enemy. This means that someone with 4 attacks per round that is hasted (giving them a total of 5 APR) can have 3 of those attacks negated. With 5 attacks per round, your "attack flurry" is 2-2-1, meaning 2 attacks, 2 attacks then 1. Against parry this means the first, third and fifth attack is parried..

effectivly this means that the only attacks that can hit you, assuming your parry is high enough, are the second and fourth attack, second is made at -5 AB and the fourth is made at -20 AB. The first and fifth are made a "full" attack bonus, but both are parried. With epic dodge, the attack most likely to hit will automatically miss even if it beats your AC, in this case it would be the -5 AB attack. This means that an enemy with 5 attacks per round can really only really hit someone with insane parry and epic dodge, with an attack made at -20 AB. Mind that 20 rolls cannot be parried, however 19 and below CAN, this is why it works very very well in conjunction with epic dodge, as it offsets 1 natural 20 attack roll every round. Also if your parry beats the opponents AB by 10 or more, you get in a free counter attack.

Let's make an example with completely random numbers off the top of my head to showcase parry. The parryer here is someone with 80ish parry(completely feasable to obtain without too many sacrefices on items), 62 AC(towershield using dex build) and 50 AB(WM levels), the enemy is a weapon master with 56 AB(More WM levels), 53 AC(+5 gear, tumble & dodge ioun) and 5 attacks per round hasted.

The weapon master will have 1d20+56, 1d20+46, 1d20+56 when hasted. against 80 parry and 62 AC, that means that only a natural 20 roll will bypass the parry, if it doesn't the remaining attacks that aren't parried(1d20+51 and 1d20+41) aren't very likely to hit vs the 62 AC, the second attack(1d20+51) will need 11 or higher to land a blow, and that's assuming epic dodge hasn't negated an attack already. The fourth attack (1d20+41) will never land unless it is a natural 20 roll, and even then it will not hit IF epic dodge hasn't triggered that round.

Also note that parry DOES NOT RESPECT CRITS, OUTSIDE OF 20 ROLLS. If you're fighting a weaponmaster that crits at 11 rolls, unless that 11 roll beats your parry, it is parried.

In return however, the parryer is allowed 3 attacks each round due to the parry beating the attack rolls by 10 or more in most instances, which are 1d20+50, 1d20+45, 1d20+40 VS the weapon masters 54 AC. Also, Riposte attacks CAN CRIT. This means that when parrying a single opponent, you are in most cases, more likely to hit them than they are to hit you, as long as you also have epic dodge and aren't trying to parry a monk. However even without epic dodge, parry is a GREAT defensive tool against a single enemy as it will give you a bigger benefit than say, expertise or improved expertise will against a single opponent, without stunting your offensive capabilities with an AB penalty(You loose potentially 2 out of your 5 attacks but keep the remaining 3 at your standard AB rather than with -5 or -10 penalty.)

That said, parry is a niche skill to make a build around, and it does nothing against ranged characters and monks can obliterate parry users rather effectively due to the number of attacks per round they get. However stacking parry on a dualwielding epic dodge dex character provides you with an alternative means of defense that doesn't involve a towershield when you're fighting a single opponent, especially if you get the parrying daggers or alternatively you can put parry on a rapier & your towershield. It requires skill investment just as a spot build does, however when built properly a parry using epic dodger will obliterate pretty much every other sword and shield build out there, especially if it's a dex based parry using epic dodging weaponmaster build with a rapier. Parry can also be great on a melee bard due to the bardsong skill bonus and curse song AB penalty, giving you a more even footing when duelling a proper martial melee build like a weaponmaster.

TLDR: Parry is great when used properly, and crap if not. Same as every other skill out there, either keep it very very high to make it useable or don't bother investing. With enough parry, when duelling someone with 5 attacks per round, and you have 5 attacks per round, you effectivly take away 3 of their attacks (both attacks madeat full AB and one made at -10 AB) leaving them with a -5 AB and -15 Ab attack, while you only loose 2 attacks but retain potentially 3 attacks made at full, -5 and -10 ab. Thus giving you a strong edge to win that duel.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 05 2018, 14:02 PM 



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Isn't the first flurry made up of 1 normal attack, and the haste attack? (I might be wrong here, but I swear the combat log always said that) Still leaves most of your points, though.


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 05 2018, 14:22 PM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Isn't the first flurry made up of 1 normal attack, and the haste attack? (I might be wrong here, but I swear the combat log always said that) Still leaves most of your points, though.

Could be me misremembering yeah, I thought it was the last attack but if it's the first then that's my bad but I don't think it invalidates parry, especially if you have epic dodge to deal with the only high AB attack the enemy can dish out in that example.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 05 2018, 14:56 PM 



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Yeah. Still means most attacks won't even hit. I do think it would be cool if there was a bit more use than dragging the fight out for 10 hours... I mean, yeah, the dex WM will win in that fight, almost always, barring extreme luck...

Though, having it only be useful in a case where it's already likely that said build would win the fight (dex WMs are pretty powerful, and are likely to win most 1v1 situations)... doesn't mean it's very useful or strong, tbh.


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 05 2018, 15:04 PM 

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True it's a niche. I used it with some success on a SD/Assassin build since a long drawn out fight means I'd have more chances to hit with the various assassin poisons like the instakill, knockdown or blind one that pretty much results in an instant win but it remains a niche skill dump but far be it from a useless one. It's on a very short list of skills that give you a direct advantage or counter to something in a fight, like discipline, concentration or tumble does, which is why I don't think it's one of the skills that needs a rework.

If anything we have a bunch of other skills that could be made more impactful or useful before parry is ever touched because unlike certain other skills, it does have it's uses and when it's used properly, it will win you fights. However the argument that it's useless or weak and that originally sparked the discussion is wrong in my eyes, because it's one of the better skill dumps to grab if you have a build that can utilize it and it can give some utility to builds that lack in defense or survivability or need to use it to buy time for some reason and for that reason I think pretty much every dex based or high skill build should grab it religiously just as with discipline and tumble or heal. Parry gets a bad rep because it's rarely used to it's full potential or misunderstood and I think that if more people put it to use, even with sub optimal builds for it, they'd be surprised at just how useful it can be. The heal skill used to have the same bad rep but when people realized that even with a small amount of itemization it can easily win you fights, especially against wizards or sorcs who run out of ways to kill you very quickly if you can endure their damaging spells, or even just for hunting as 33 dump into heal and using +10 healkits will let you heal for 88-126 HP every round. (brotip; always grab heal on a SD character as it lets you hide, heal back up and then re-engage very very quickly)

I wanted to try and show that parry, much like heal does have it's uses and deserves more love than it traditionally has gotten.

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