The Server & What can be done

I'm making this post out of a genuine concern for the health of the server, and I just wanted to make my post of everything so this can be discussed in a constructive manner amongst everyone on what we feel could be done. I want you all to know that this isn't some blame game, but rather something we should try to work as a community about and try to improve it however we can.

Amia is a game for everyone. The beauty of it to me has always been the interactions you can develop with the world and players around you. The life of the players is what keeps this place rolling, and the brains of the DM's is what allows the world to seem alive. Players and DM's are equal peers in the aspect that without the players the dungeon masters wouldn't have anyone to weave a story for, and the players wouldn't have anyone to help change the world and do what they wanted to do.

However, I won't lie in saying there's been a lack of communication between the DM team and the players. Whatever the cause of it may be, inactivity, real life, sickness, or maybe you just don't feel like logging on. It's causing an unhealthy balance between the two that hasn't been filled. As a DM, I feel as though it's your job to maintain and interact with the players on consistant basis, which hasn't been happening from the majority of the Amian team themselves. I would like to once again state this isn't a hate speech, or playing the blame game, but rather something we can all work -together- trying to fix.

I understand there are matters in our lives that draws attention elsewhere, or maybe it's up to the players to make the first iniative. However, no matter what, it's so important that the balance isn't lost between the players and the people who run it.

So what can we do to fix this? Recruit new blood for the DM team? Try coordinate better with the team itself so we can try to move forward with our goals? Is there an activity issue? A timezone issue? All of the above? These things need to be discussed amongst the players /and/ the DM's so we can fix it. I encourage you all to voice your opinion on this matter so we all push the server forward in a positive direction.

Personally I feel like the creativity aspect that made Amia.. Amia... is gone from the newer days. Feels like there are no possibilities or if there are... Requires huge amounf of work/tears/blood to get done. In the other hand, the player-side atmosphere... Seems to have become more light, fun and inclusive. At least how I've felt.

Personally I loved seeing the interaction BNB and Elyon made happen together in DM side. It felt like the world was interactive... Our actions did have an impact.. Our actions did make worse turns and good...

Just been missing that aspect. I feel detached most time in Amia... Like there is nothing pulling me in. Character changing events or the atmopshere of something is about to happen.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I will be crude, but BnB and Elyon done a wonderful work together and their events was more aligned in how I want events, more mystery, more interactivity and interaction with NPCs and enviroment.

I can agree on a lot of things BnB is saying here.

Amia got a big legacy and if we want to keep it up we might want to sacrifice something to keep going, like work on a Amia 2.0 or cut out some areas of the server. We done it before, we can do it again. This is just one idea out of the air among many others. We can keep a much more unified front to show we are one community with one goal, to make our community standing strong and outlasting.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

I personally stepped forward onto the client a few days ago, when I wasn't supposed to be - because in my opinion the biggest priorities will always be the entertainment of the players. I saw the server dieing down, people were engaged in casual Bendir roleplay and were slowly beginning to log off out of boredom. So I made a call to try to do something for you all because I felt it was right.This likely got my DM application denied to be truthful, /for/ running an event for you all. I ended up breaching a trust that I wasn't supposed to be on the client without supervision, but that's hard to do when the DM's aren't around on the later evening when a lot of Americans come around. However it's not something I regret because I've always known in itself there needs to be interactions between the playerbase and the DM's. I do regret I won't be able to likely run any more events for you, due to a rash action that I made trying to entertain the players. I haven't seen players given time, it something I personally haven't seen happening and I'm around a lot.

If I can't DM for you all, at least I can address the problems that you all feel is affecting the server and hopefully the issues will work themselves out with a group discussion.

I'll be honest-

I sit on Amia Forums, as I have the passed few years, and I just read. Whatever I have access too. Typically besides that when I login to Amia there isn't much I can do, or just do. I wish I could do something more and could help with player interest / activity. I only play evil characters to keep people at least interested in logging in. However I don't have much reach anymore with what I can do. If anyone has tasteful, fun ideas for evil on Amia to spark interest please let me know. Otherwise, I might be on an endless loop of logging in and leaving when I get bored. Which is usually right after a Beastmen run. The times I get to actually play are the unpopular times for Amia ti seems. With one player on each side. Unless its on my off days then I play as much as I can.

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I would completely have to agree. Elyon and BnB was why I logged on a lot. Fun loving and interactive. The server player base has become light hearted n extremely friendly. The casual mini events sparked more life and inspiration than I've seen in a long time.

I for one say huzza, if a bad action only has positive reactions is it a bad action? At this point amia really is in a sinking ship and desperate times call for desperate actions. To BnB I salute you and thank you for wanting to inspire the masses, not for yourself, but for us.

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Lieutenant Belalad Feiwallyan

((Please take note if you PM me and you are ignored resend to me in 1-3days, it is likely due to not realizing I got mail))

The players and the staff need to communicate, so yes, please speak your mind but please remain constructive. In general, I believe the server thrives in both ways. By the way, these are my words and not the team's general view on it.

Inactivity due to whatever reason from the team does happen. Though with that in mind, I think it's important for us, the team, to maintain awareness of the ongoings with players during the missing hours any individual isn't able to witness. This can definitely be resolved by having more DMs in general, especially at the EST and Aussie times, which I know there's not enough attention there. I encourage those living in those time zones to apply if interested. (We also like Euro-times too of course). I've been rather active as of late in the mid to late GMT hours, but I know I won't be able to keep that activity indefinitely later.

From my limited experience DMing, I've recognized it's engaging with the players that matter most. Not the new idea plots, the area building, the mobs, gear, balancing etc. The decisions, consequences, and shaping of the world is something I've found the most important- which admittedly requires so much attention. For this, usually, a DM has to be dynamic, approachable and sometimes go out of their way to know a player and their character, especially newer members of the community too. A sort of heavy investment for a greater customer service. I know this can be improved overall on our side of things, where DMing hours could be much higher than it is now.

As for the playerbase, something I'd like to see in general is small initiatives, like sparring sessions, exploring unknown areas, make use of the job system to create something fancy, making use of requestable to work towards for RP flair and dynamics, arena & games etc. Long-term goals go without saying. They could be spiced up by a DM, but shouldn't be necessary. These things make a persistent world and we all have a role to play in it. Lastly, I feel there needs to be more engagement, especially in the afternoon to evening GMT hours where I see players within similar levels hunting alone. I'd be more inclined to do a spontaneous mini-event if players banded together. I'd say if there were more players logging on, there's more for a DM to provide a service of entertainment and enjoyment.

Though whilst a spur of activity from DMs do correlate to a higher player count, please remember the lasting effect comes from you. A price we have to pay for a story DM-centric server is our activity, at the risk of expecting some kind of longer-term effect from the playerbase. Otherwise, players would simply log on just for DM events which isn't what we want.

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

Since you brought it up publically and threw the blame on the DM team, I'll respond to this part with my own personal opinions.

When you are logged in as a DM you have immense powers at your disposal, powers that can be misused and have been in the past, you have tools that allow you to ban people, mod their characters ability scores, xp, DC's, import or create items, to mention only a few. I'm not saying you would ever abuse that, but it's why the process of approving DMs isn't a simple cake walk and why GST's need supervision. There is no way to implement a separate GST system that has less access than a DM, because of how the game is structured and if there is it would require Dev work that we never had the manpower for. So it's either as it is now, or not at all.

Guest storytelling was set up as a way to enable people to run events and be creative from a creator perspective rather than that of a player, without having to go through the long and slow process of being approved as a DM. With the caveat that you run events that are approved by the DM team first (to ensure it's lore accurate and events consistent with the setting) and that you have a supervisor at all times to both protect you and the players from potentially difficult situations. It's with these restrictions that GSTs are even a thing.

Yeah, you probably destroyed your own chances at becoming a DM, because you breached the trust that allows the GST system to exist and the verbal contract made with the DM team by participating as one. You had been granted plenty of leeway beyond its normal scope already, because of your DM applications and the staff wanting to see more of your stuff. This consequence isn't because you ran an event for the players, but because you abused the GST system in the way you ran that event by breaking the rules in place that allows for it to be a thing. The rules apply to everyone, player, DM, GST, Dev, whoever and under them we are all equally liable for our own actions. If you disagree with the rules then open up a discussion about them, breaking them and then calling foul on the rules isn't the correct approach and you know it.

You claim you did it for the players, but the truth is that you now most likely denied them future events created by you as a DM down the road or as a GST. You chose to run one unapproved and unsupervised event, fully aware of the rules and the consequences it might have, rather than wait another week or two and potentially be able to run as many events as often and whenever you want as a DM. That's a choice you decided to make, and the consequences are on you, not the DM team. This isn't the DM team being assholes or "limiting" fun for players but enforcing the rules that are in place that allows the server to operate. We all abide by them every day, and regardless of what justification you have, it's not enough to avoid the consequences of willfully disregarding them because you disagree with them. That's not a trait anyone wants in a DM, because when we had DMs that thought that way and ignored rules, Amia got a reputation for favoritism and abusive DMs that took years to shake off.

Because of the choice you made, you most likely robbed both yourself and others of any future events you might have made. And I personally think it's a shame because the feedback from those events was excellent and I think it could have created a lot of fun for the players. It was really disappointing that it happened.

As for me, yeah I've been gone a long time at this point, I've already stated the very valid reasons why in the BRB thread. With fewer active players we consequently have fewer people to pick from when we suggest new DMs to help fill the void. What you did, didn't help the situation.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I will offer my two cents as well whilst we are doing this.

I can see the DM side of the arguement. The GST is a verbal communication of trust and the breaching of said trust is something that is a shame to see. Yes, I also acknowledge the fact that Sully was well aware that he did not have permission to do so before he ran the event because he PMed me about starting it and told me as much before the event began. I also agree that a potential DM has the ability to break things and the reason the GST system exists is to make sure that they don't within the bounds of a trial process, and no supervision was had during this event when there should have been.

That being said I will note that even if Sully did it well aware of the consequences in no way shape or form did he do it as a selfish action. He had absolutely nothing to garner from doing it. In-fact if anything he went into knowing it was going to potentially ruin his chances of being a DM. He did it anyway because people were sitting around on the server with absolutely nothing to do and he had the power to give them such. In that light he did it for the community. Also I will point out what you said grave that the whole point of the GST is a vetting process. Whilst I agree that it is a good thing to have to make sure that nothing is broken and this event took place without the approved supervision. Nothing was broken. Nothing happened other than a bunch of bored players within the community having a great time.

I will also point out that if you all thought so highly of his actions and were going to give him free reign within a week or two anyway, as well as approved highly of what he was doing and the joy he was bringing to the community why would you toss that aside? It seems like nothing but wasted potential to me for absolutely no other reason than hurt feelings.

I can agree that he broke a breach of trust and perhaps that should be punished by longer time within the confounds of the GST system? Not ruining great potential outright.

All I am saying is look above the petty squabbles of broken trust and hurt feelings and look to the bigger picture and what actually matters. The server and the thriving life of the community.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

I will also point out that I do agree with a vast amount of what Elyon said.

Whilst some may blame the DM team a vast amount for the lack of content it is a two way street. It is not only up to the DMs to weave the stories but the player-base to keep the stories going and alive well after the story has been weaved.

On Elyon's notion that she does less stuff because people aren't constantly banded together I have to very highly disagree. It is well within the DMs power to bring those people together and doing things as well. Also to do things with one of those random individuals grinding alone 1on1. It is infact more so in the DMs power to do this than the players because The DMs have the ability to see where all the players are and what they are doing at any given time. The players do not have this luxury amongst one another.

Also the fact that if Grave what you are saying is true and you have real reasons why you have been severely inactive as a DM might I suggest it is time to step down and to make a vacancy in the team in which to allow to be filled. As well as if you are as severely inactive as you claim, perhaps it is best for you not to be making server side decisions when you have barely any 1st-hand knowledge of what is going on. And, allow those to speak that actually do. It is room for thought. I am not saying you are or blaming you for anything I am simply saying if you are inactive and aren't doing your best. take a step back and allow those that can and have the ability to, to do just that.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

There is no set number of DM slots, and thus there are no vacancies that will suddenly open up if one of us steps down. And even those of us who have been inactive for a time tend to keep up to date on server issues (forums, DM chat, what events are going on, etc.). DMs are also brought on after careful consideration on their judgement, and the ability to judge a situation based on the standards the server and team have set doesn't change with some inactivity.

When it comes to knowledge of what's going on, the same could be said that those outside the DM team shouldn't be making decisions either without knowing the bigger picture - things only we see, issues we keep confidential so we aren't airing problems and breeching peoples' privacy all the time. Something such as the public vote that's been set up to see if Sully should be a DM falls under this category. This troubles me as there is no way I can see that ending well and not causing more divide and hurt.

There are things perhaps both sides aren't seeing, but I assure you whatever decision we make we don't make lightly. Truthfully, I've enjoyed BnB's story telling. I didn't consider his unapproved event as being enough to outright deny him. What perturbs me the most is the fact that this has all been aired in public, which is also something a potential DM shouldn't be doing. Not to mention I take offense at the direction of blame. BnB knew what he was doing and what effects it might have and still chose to go ahead with it.

I'm not sure what else to say...
I applaud peoples' dedication to the community, but there's a right and a wrong way to express it. We're doing our best given our circumstances. I just hope we can get through this without further divide.

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Just want to comment on this part. While it is true that the activity comes from both spectrums of playberbase, the fact remains that if DM's have not happened to see/hear/experience the things we do or try to achieve to, they wont be granted in requests made. We do have an option of documenting everything, placing the screenies online, make a request and then write a whole story and reasoning as to why. But even that won't be certain, it just another step of maybe. It is a lot of work to make anything tangible and then you're also expected to know what is within reasons (Does it follow the hundreds of lore points or not in D&D).

I just would like to see more room for being creative and develop things, instead of 100% pure lore. Just my viewpoint.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

The reason for the poll is I believe whether or not the people know the whole story, the community has a right to be able to influence DMs decisions if they can agree amongst one another that they disagree with a DM team's choices. Yes it may put people at odds with one another but it is their right to be able to express their opinions on the matter and to rob them of such is simply disrespectful.

After all whether or not he becomes a DM is going to heavily influence the playerbase so shouldn't the playerbase have a say whether or not this happens?

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

Good old times, this is just turns into the old players vs the Amia crew.

I mean, several of you still carry a DM tag but you're barely around most of you, Elyon and her "assistant" in Cortoy kept the server going while most of you just sit on a title.

EDIT:

This server always had DM and player issues.

We had plenty corrupt DMs, corrupt Players, plenty of nepotism.

How did I get a non-timed ban in 2007? Well by my own temper but also by DMs and players breaking a very strange OOC deal we had all made.

Get off the high horses and talk to your community like we are equals and not like we are pieces of stains under your boots.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

I'm speaking from a viewpoint that I'd like to keep this discussion healthy and constructive. So I am here to speak and listen as equals. Maybe it's not directed at me but regards to this, the moment we assume that we're out to get another on both ends, is when a topic usually begins to derail. Anyway, It's great we have topics like this to address concerns and so forth.



I think there's a misunderstanding, or maybe I didn't clarify myself properly. I didn't say that I do less stuff because people aren't banded together, but as a suggestion to keep a tighter community of fun and entertainment. I still do interactions 1 on 1, or spy on a group and offer what I can, though it's not that I do them less, but that there is only so much I can go with the flow with without properly assessing any individual PC- which takes a lot of time.

You're right, we could band people together by forming shouts, providing NPC interactions, but where is the spontaneous element to that? Should I break immersion, get everyone to stop what they're doing so they band? I would essentially have to think of something new and new again for every player, that isn't overdone (e.g. adding more mobs and dropping a yellow item) and would actually be meaningful (world-changing, NPC-changing, character developing), something that bypasses a mental block of creativity.

When I DM, I think about several factors which contribute to keeping a story woven, and I've found that if players are together it takes those factors into account. Is it a one-day mini-event? Are there any risk that the story will be left stranded/stagnant? How can I weave conflict/harmony by the consequences and decisions made between each individual of the event? Would this interaction help them develop their character(s) or is it a hack-and-slash for 'combat experience'? And more. These are things I like to think about because to keep the persistence of the world. It really does help when players band in groups, though of course, I won't deny individuals doing their own thing. It doesn't have to be a daily-grind adventure, it could be any goal, any RP in mind.



As with requestable, I really emphasize, especially with hours of work put into something. It does help to have a DM, you're right because the RP is likely (but not definitely) to be approved, though I'm certain DM oversight isn't absolutely necessary for approval.

I know the uncertainty factor can be a huge frustration. All I can say is if you're unsure of something do ask the DMs or even any fellow players of similar requests so they could provide a quick overall response. A solution I can think of is more transparency, the boundaries, and expectations, though I won't lie and say it's not tricky. As for your suggestion, the 'creativity versus lore', each DM will have their stance of a request case by case, though I for one am not on the stance of "if it's not in the sourcebooks, it can't be done".

Lastly, I'll say that I still encourage others to go with a request even if there's a level of uncertainty about getting it approved.

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

I don't know if it's my timezone but I haven't seen a DM besides Elyon (And, to her defense, Lutra yesterday and Tarnus a few times before he vanished again into the abyss) IG for weeks. And I'm pretty sure I'm one of the more active players, despite my life beating the ever-living shit out of me atm.

Just... Throwing that out there. BnB was literally trying to help. And he did a good job. I know it's stupid to defend him just blatantly misusing access to such a powerful tool, like a GM In WoW randomly spawning Ragnaros in Stormwind, but come the fuck on. The server is dying and he saw an opportunity.

Also Budly, stop being so fucking Toxic. You won't get anywhere with that Attitude.

EDIT: Also Grave is excused. I thought that goes without saying.

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After reading through this posts I will post a few things here. The thread itself is holds a good intention and we indeed have problems and there are a few things that we will have to rethink about Amia. I think I've mentioned a few things on discord earlier today but will mention again. I am personally disappointed by the fact that this thread has been twisted based on a one-sided information. However, due to the initial constructive aim of this thread I will try to contribute first and address the other issues later.

I could name a few issues, symptoms that I have noticed.



Magiros has it right here and I am going to specify in a few points in light of this:

- We are operating on the blueprints of a server that contained a massive DM and Dev team that were able to follow up the request system and the custom scripting. That's no longer the case and we can't. Furthermore, despite the common assumption about our favor for a smaller DM team it is quite the opposite. Our request system can only operate with a larger team. We either axe the request system and reduce it only for PRCs, subraces and event request (tied with possible item requests) or we think of another way.

- We are stuck with a setting that is stuck on it's own For this we have been planning a chain of events to open things up and reduce and increase certain things in order to adjust balance of powers and thus ensure the greater access for players with their own plot. In order to start it up soon we had to plan this for months now because of the complexity of the issues.

- Amia is indeed not a hands off server entirely, this I believe became even more critical with the extremely diminished Dev team as we can't really follow up with the module changes that fast anymore. That definitely reduces our inclination to wipe out an area all out of sudden without being able to follow up with the change. Yes, that's definitely an issue. We definitely cannot follow up with the fireballing or hellballing and demolishing pace that some player attitude demanded us to do...welp sorry.

- In addition to this the current team sort of inherited the server as it is while everyone who actually created the server, the scriptings, the plugins left quite suddenly or their RL situation and/or obligations do not allow them to operate our dev side anymore. This is a major issue for us when it comes to EE transition and everything. The team is kinda left alone here while we have a few great minds with us, such as Hrothmus who is doing his best with the limited support we can give him, and also Mav, Sune and Raven when they have time for us. However, not an insignificant amount of time we spend with looking around the server and the mechanics and say "OMG...WTF is that?" or "How do we do THAT?" with the usual responses of "UGh..dunno anything about uploading modules" or "wait...how do I even get remote access"?

- In 2013 custom scripting stopped. After that the player count radically dropped from 100+ people of full server situation to 40-50 people on at the time which later further reduced. I think this and the related dev work was part of the reason what made Amia great once. This was also a holding pillar and without that other issues came to the surface which further struck the community as it is.

- Forced lore and thus improper module changes in the very same year and the following year also struck the community that we are now trying to redeem somehow with the aforementioned event contingency plan.

- Perspective on the DM team. The current DM is a rather new one and especially the majority of the current team inherited very old grievances. I am not going to lie, it is partially due to this while many of us left or reduced our online time.

- DM dependency. Something that Elyon pointed out and she and I actually talked to her a lot about this the other night. Well, this is indeed a thing, while we are not a hands off server and never been one (despite the common belief) the server used to do quite well without constant DM interaction in the past. There has been an indication that the frequency of the DM events would actually help this. I remember that Tarnus and I managed to produce 40+ hours/week on the client while also trying to lead our own factions in the fall of 2016 but that didn't seem to help but only increase the the dependency. 6 months later during Elyon's first tenure and Dicey's first tenure we have also reached critical DMing hours which again increased the dependency. So at this point I will have to ask...what do youguys need or what did we do wrong?

- Player attitude and responsibilities: Youguys are playing here for free (after buying this game) we are working here for free (after buying this game). Player responsibilities aren't that big but only to follow the rules, do your own due diligence before requests and for your own plots. This often seems to be too much to ask. It's been the greatest surprised for me at this point. Certain people were complaining about not knowing about things or having the wrong impression about things. However, when I asked the DM team if this or this player an actual inquiry then I received a NADA answer from all of them. We could write walls of information on areas, plots but these are informations that change in light of other plots. If your character wants to engage somewhere then please FEEL FREE TO ASK. If you don't know where to look up lore then FEEL FREE TO ASK.The best and most "fool proof" way to do that is to received tailored information from the DMs. I am active in the discord chat...tag me to questions, direct message me or PM me on the forums. I even offer to do that publicly if I am seeing active questions there.
Another issue is with the player attitude towards eachother. This is very bad and the player attitude towards DMs only reach second rank in my ranking system and you will see why.

State of the DM team: Well...not gonna lie. There quite a few of us who feel bitter about this place for various reasons. On my part I have had RL obligations that changed my timezone from US timezone to European. That indeed left a gap in the US availability window. Unfortunately for my RL situation changed, so did my private life. I can no longer make excuses to stay on Amia at night and during European daytime there is very little I can do. Thus when I am not on client side and available, my duties are restricted to answering questions here, for the newer team members or on Discord.
Unfortunately the end of 2017 and the beginning of 2018 was very unkind to the RL of most of the DM team. These RL situations were really critical and the timings were very inconvenient. Of course you would all ask: "why didn't you step down then or why didn't you hire new people?" Well the answer is simple: "we simply weren't in the position to consider anything like that while handling RL crises". So we all disappeared or our DM time dropped at once and the primary public assumption was that we are neglecting this issue. In cases like this the human approach would be to ask nicely if we are alright or not. The fact that we don't post to the confession thread still makes us humans
Budly demands that we should treat the players with respect which we try but it is a two-way street so please be mindful about our self. We have been lucky with Elyon's return to the DM team a few months ago and we are proud to have her among us. Her presence and persistent work indeed helped us a great deal, so did BnB's pretty awesome GSTing.
We are flawless and more than possibly even the members of the current team made mistakes especially when there was a rather sudden change of personnel. We understand that and we regret those things if they happened. Our renewed aim is to make the server more accessible and hopefully that will open things up for mutual enjoyment. However, in order to achieve that we will have to relearn how to communicate with eachother. Clearly, we (the team) must have failed somewhere and I am sincerely asking you all to help change the atmosphere around here.


Now to other things:

@BnB:
After the private conversations with you I did not think that you would do that. Grave summarized a few things I wanted to add. I honestly believe that you did this because you believed that you were doing the right things but ends do not justify the means.
While being on the client side which is the more fun aspect of DMing it is not about that. While we are not on the client we spend hours to discuss potential avenues, player requests (public and private ones), setting things correctly, rulebreakings if they occur, lore issues etc etc etc. These also take hours while you are handling private matters of the players and DMs at the same time. Discussing potential candidates also fall into that category and we did discuss your candidacy for hours where legitimate concerns were raised which I will not specify but you know them well. Also, I will say now that we devised a way for you to prove us wrong and I am 100% sure that you did convince us. In fact I spent more than an hour writing a post on the "why yes for BnB" in the relevant thread in the DM forums and additionally spent hours discussing it.

While it is true that I missed our session on Saturday for unfortunate RL reasons and I've only managed to see the end, I remember sincerely asking you to be patient and you pulled your aforementioned "revolutionary act" less than 24 hours after that. I personally do not believe that one and a half month is a lot of waiting period for a DM whose fitting was meant to be evaluated. You did a great job on the client and we appreciate that part but it is not just about that. The majority of DMing is about you becoming an operator here for both the server and the community (we do not have the luxury to separate this from the DM duties unlike other servers, especially now) and if you do not see what went wrong here by breaching that trust then I honestly don't know what to say to you.

@Budly:
After discussing a few things on Discord, I think we can all agree that some of those things are overstatements. I get your problem but as I said in Discord, this team cannot be compared to the ones you are referring to and it is rather unfair to pull out the "Sins of your fathers" type of accusations. These are things that the current team inherited and not committed.

These statements are quite dehumanizing too. While you all think that "we are DMs and we should take it", I will humbly ask you to look around this forum. Seriously look around and see how often does this happens on the forum. Granted, more often than not players may not be able to see the full picture but then again, like in the case of this thread non of you actually considered that there is another side of this story. Same thing happened here. Non of you even bothered to ask questions or filter any information that one side provided but immediately jumped at the "evil DMs" bandwagon.

While we have to take these these things will eventually get to us.



I have will combine this with Budly's thread. Grave has only been inactive for the past 1 month (partially due to his final which is a periodical obligation and thus Amia-free time for students that we can't blame them for) so I do not think that it is fair to say that to him. Also, we do not have fixed amount of DM positions. We would be happier to have more of us than less of us. The less players we have the more reduced is our group to select from which is also a significant problem for us. Reasons that why we had to reevaluate our recruiting process too. Furthermore, demanding DMs to step back for their RL reasons, especially in the case of Grave's whose heart and mind are 10000% in this game had his RL allowed him is kinda rude in my opinion, especially when the barring reason for him is actually very tragic and traumatic. This is yet another case when DMs are dehumanized or their current and past work is not being recognized in any form.

The playerbase is not only doing this to the DM team. We had to implement this rule too because players publicly wished the death of other players and even then the discord channels were up in flames, saying that we (the evil DMs) are protecting ourselves while implementing rules like that. That's just an example but that's also an issue that we can't really ignore and should not really ignore and I think we were too polite when we chose to not air the actual reasons behind that rule. Earlier this year another player wished the death of a team member among other awful things. The year before repeated attempt was made on hacking a former team member's account.

Please be mindful about this when you are evaluating our feelings about Amia.

Part of the reason why we are here is due to the community and certain OOC attitudes that killed us. If you read the threads from 2012/2013 then you can already see this happening.

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Lord Hector Sylgerand
Glendil Fettian, the black bard

Edit: MC to post only quote.

Loving what I just read, in a sense that it gives a picture how matters were and are in objective manner. Personally, I am currently doing work to learn Aurora Toolset to do areas, learning scripting in it too, touched 3D moduling trying to do a trident, but need to start from something simpler.. Though I got close! Also my goal is to learn the spell scripting.

I wont say I am especially great in most of the stuff, other than rather loving the areas I can create at the moment.. But I am working to get the scripting part down so I could, hopefully, work to help out with Amia. Towards end of this year, I will be learning even more coding as I enlisted for a professional studies to get a degree out of it hopefully. At this point, I possibly only could help with areas and making them look like something while someone else does the more hardcore things on it to finish it.



I wont blame DM's taking time off for RL matters. I would like that it would be made transparent if someone is away, not necessary to give the reasons. Also, I don't see the point of asking a DM to step down if they are not online weekly basis... Seeing our numbers, I don't see any value in that.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

... *sigh* ... Can someone give me a pointer where I can start with Scripting in Aurora...? Promise I'll try my best. Be warned though, my best usually isn't good enough.

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I haven't been on Amia very long, so I likely don't have much room to give my opinion. I would like to say what I have seen from a new player perspective, however.

First off, Amia is getting new players in, like myself. If I understand correctly, there is something going on that will open that gate even more. There will be fresh ideas and RP and new expectations.

Secondly, I come from a dead server, one that used to thrive as Amia did and does. But if the lifeblood of a server is the players, it's soul is the DM team, with an imbalance of either, the body of the server withers and passes away. I have seen this first hand.

I have played on other servers that have playerbase, but little to no DM activity at all. I quickly lost interest when there was never anything new to see or do, as I didn't have that tendon of loyalty to attach me to the core of it. Amia still has a living soul, a changing world that things still happen within. It still has a chance to attract and attach new players, but it's hold seems tenuous to me.

Lastly, I understand that he did something wrong and I understand that there are rules in place for a reason. Yes, he broke the law to the letter, but did he really break it in spirit? He ran a DM event without supervision or approval, but did he take advantage of the system? Did he cause trouble? Did he cheat, hak, or twink anyone? Did he do any of the things that the law is there to protect against?
I also understand that he was wrong in bringing this public, but what could he do otherwise to allow the voice of the players to be known? If you don't want the DMs vs Player divide, then don't cause one. Allow us to know what's going on and have a voice in it.

I'll be one of the first to admit that he is young, impulsive and impetuous. This means that he is going to make mistakes against his maturity, but it also means that he's adaptable and able to learn from those mistakes and grow.

I started with this:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsQglN ... SJF7fsx1DQ

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again if the team ever needs a spare hand I can send in a application.

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I'd like to come out and say publically I ended up throwing the first rock, out of a rash decision that could have been made more intelligently and with much more tact and precision. I would like to apologize for that, because it could've been handled much better then the avenue we ended up taking. My original post on this forum was for players and DM's alike - so that we could attempt to communicate with each other on what's best for the server. The actions that I took are not in the best interest for the server, but rather vented frustrations that frankly make me wonder if I even have the proper mentality to represent Amia in it's best light.

DM's and Players alike both care about this place, and we all want Amia to thrive. Every DM on the team has earned their place on the server through hard work and dedication, and though they may be inactive, that doesn't diminish what they've done. Asking a DM to step down for example due to inactivity just makes us lose another DM, and that doesn't help solve this problem we're attempting to fix. We need to communicate with each other more openly, make our plans and thoughts known.

It's important we all discuss what we truly feel and how we can make the server better without using personal feelings affect our judgment and making a negative environment. I feel like the biggest hypocrite saying this, but it's what does need to happen so we can move forward and actually make progress.

We always need more people. So if you(yes you, dear reader) have interest in being a DM, Dev, GST or whatever, please feel free to send in an application so we can get the ball rolling, and remember to nudge us about it from time to time so it doesn't get forgotten! (And if you don't get a reply from the nudge at all, just send it to another team member in case the one you sent it to missed it or otherwise unable to get to it due to RL stuff or whatever)

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Im sorry for hat I said to.

We are all Amians and I gonna say t hat Elyon and BnB was an excellent duo. I hope there can be some kind of DM assistant position or something for him. Something inbetween. Understandbly other DMs been busy with reallife and I said some things that was crude and some was missunderstood. But I do still think we can do much more, and I do not only mean DMs and devs. More can help out in other ways. Im not a good example considering how angered I was over things today. But I think we can all do good. We have new players that pull more to the server, Gwondier, Thats a hell of a work that guy seemingly is doing. Servers die and we should be here as a Bastion for the community and arrive. The Sinfar scripter stepping forward was really awesome too. Perhaps the NWN community can stand strong, throw out an helping hand when needed to each others and we as the AMian sub community should be able to discuss and stay united even if opinions differ. In the end we all want our "NWN Home" to stand tall.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

As my last and final addition to this thread I will point out that I am a tad disappointed about how you see me as blaming the DMs in this scenario. As I explained to both you and Grave in discord and I will explain here my position was never to blame anyone or say for people to step down or be removed. Or even say the DMs or evil blah-de-blah. My position was simply thus: When reality becomes a hinderance to the amount of effort you can put into something far less important it is best to allow others that do have the luxury of said free time to step up to the plate and help in a matter that you cannot.

I can honestly admit I know exactly what Grave is going through because I have a highly medically fragile and autistic sibling that I am the legal guardian of. At one point in his life he spent literally every other month in the Emergency Room for Grandmal Seizures. So I know exactly what kind of pain he is going through and how painful it can be. And that despite this. His love for the community and the server is absolute. And that he, as well as every other member on the DM staff have worked very hard for the community and the server and have earned nothing but praise from the community.

My position is simply that if you have problems and can only work 40% allow people to come in and help that can work the other 60% and take a back seat. Working anymore than you can handle is enough to drive anyone insane. I know because like I said I have been there. Whilst I may have never DMed for NWN I have spent my spare share of over 14 years being an administrator for a vast assortment of other games from MMOs to smaller games like Jedi Outcast. So I know exactly what you all are going through as I have been there.

All I want to see is for the community to thrive and there to be communication between the DM team and the rest of the community and to allow people that can help while you have strife in RL can.

As far as the poll I made you seem to have misconstrued it as an attack on the DM team and for that I severely apologize. My intentions were not to enforce what you wish to do one way or another or to say anything you have decided was wrong. My intention was that at the end of the day like you said, everyone is doing this for free. So, at the end of the day things are done in order to keep the community happy and thriving. With that in mind I felt it was my responsibility as a member of the community that also loves it to allow the community to have a voice and say whether or not they THINK(not demand) whether or not Sully should be a DM. And that their opinions be heavily weighed in the making of said decision. because it is after all for the community so the community should be allowed a voice in what is going on when it affects them as a whole.

I will note that I do agree with Gwondier that an alternative punishment may be a decent alternative as I personally believe that the current train of thought may be a tad too extreme of a reaction. Especially for something so small when indeed as Skye said nothing was broken and everyone had an absolute fun time with the event he ran. I hate to see so much fun be wasted because everyone can not put their genitals in their pants and look to the future with high hopes. This is DMs and Players included. Because on both sides, this quickly turned from a calm discussion to both DMs and players getting defensive about things and believing they are being attacked and that is really not how this discussion should have been taken.

My personal opinion is I think if he should have any future as being a DM to perhaps give him a longer standing time as a GST to perhaps win your trust back that you need. And not allow things to be thrown away so rashly over a single incident that in the grande scheme of things, caused absolutely no harm other than conversation.

That's just my thoughts on the matter and I would like you all to do with that however you see fit.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

What I understood of the conversation is that matters are being discussed. I do believe it to be rather normal reaction to bar someone from access until a conclusion has been made. There was no discussion of a ban, as far as it was explained to us.


So perhaps we should let the DM team and BNB to take a while to figure things out before throwing our own piece of mind into the mix. Both "side" of the two, seems reasonable people to figure it out.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

This will be my last and final piece to note as a comment towards this regarding me as a person itself. Thank you for the support, and the team and myself are in discussion of what will happen and where we will proceed. Certain things and aspects will determine the course of whether I participate in running events and other interactions with you all. If an agreement can't be made, in a mutual fashion with both parties can agree with, then that's just the way it has to be. However I hope that's not the case, and that a solution can be made.

I'm not interested in punishment, or a probation or whatever solutions some of you stated that should be applied towards myself if I were to continue. It's just more stress towards something that's supposed to be fun, that I enjoy doing for you all naturally. I don't even want the title of DM, all I want to try to do is just run random events and do dumb fun things for the playerbase. Unfortunately that isn't what a "Guest Story Teller" is, because the natural way those events work is that it's planned and a time is set. I don't really know when I can be on, my life is too chaotic in it's own way to determine if I can run events for you all in planned manner like that.

I understand where the DM team is coming from, TheCortroy broke your trust in him. TheCortroy is a passionate man and no doubt his mind was clouded by emotions when he acted. TheCortroy wants to help the server, this I am certain of. He wants things like they were before, and not like the deadened place it is now. He is only human. However, the DM team does make a good argument of having to maintain control over the server while maintaining their real life lives. TheCortroy had threatened this. I do not condone his actions, though see his actions as one of a child getting a new toy and wanting to show his friends. Which, is understandable, because Neverwinter Nights is a game, and games are meant to be enjoyed.
TheCortroy still represents the life and vitality that the players feel this server needs. He wants to help, but he doesn't know how. Think of him as a child, untested, rash and rather cocky. Mold him into something that would allow him to be the DM that the server needs. So perhaps instead of removing him, give him a cause to move towards, something that he can put his energy into to prove himself as DM worthy and, above all, worthy of your trust.

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

Comparing me as a child The Little Dragon leaves a rather bad taste in my mouth, considering I've been playing this game since I /actually/ was a child. I would like to naturally thank you for the support, regardless anyways though. However comparing me as someone whom is as "fresh and untested" similar something then a reckless kid who just got his new bike without training wheels just isn't true. It is true I made a bad decision, and I ended up breaching an agreement that was set up by me and the DM team - however I did that out of what I personally believed what the server needs. Though that is no excuse for the action and taking steps into my own hands. In a shameless defense of myself, I had just gotten back from a flight that brought me back four hours in time, and I was already 32+ hours deep with no sleep. This caused a rather bad lapse in judgment in myself, as I logged on to see 6 players with no interaction happening, besides some casual Bendir roleplay in which were people were probably going to log off soon. It triggered me, and at that point, I didn't care - because I just wanted to try to do something random for people whom otherwise weren't going to get any attention. This is no excuse, but perhaps some clarity into a bad action.

It's of my personal belief that the server needs someone whom can give the players and the world the proper tools and dedication they need to assist in making it feel more alive. This stems from a lack of presence in EST and Western Time zones, which is where a large amount of our player base resides. It's not always planned events, that isn't the issue entirely, but maintenance, questions, general interaction. That was always the end goal for myself, to try to fill that void in presence for the players in a neglected time zone.

I'd like to ask once again please, myself and the DM team are in discussion of where we should proceed from here and if there's any options for the future. Your support really is loved and appreciated, but at this point it's just lingering on an uncomfortable subject for myself. Your voices and concern do warm my heart in knowing that I do have people supporting me, but continuing on the subject isn't pressing forward the subject of what we personally believe needs to happen for Amia's future for it to strive.

Lutra..



What is your point with this paragraph? From what I can tell the first thing you are implying is that the DM team are, like the players, doing this for free and using your spare time. I understand that sometimes the playerbase ask unreasonably much, but that you are doing it for free does not put you above criticism. Being a DM is a responsibility, and it is a responsibility you choose upon yourself, choose being the operative word. You have to realize there has probably been many players over the years that have wanted to become a DM, try to make Amia a better place, for free, but was never given the choice.

The second thing I can take from this paragraph is that you think some players can't even live up to the low expectations you set for them (That's putting it very simply and crudely). I find this and a lot of what you say in your post very hypocritical considering you later in your post criticize players for the way they talk about DM's.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

If you want to DM, all you have to do is send in an application to the current team and then go through the approval process. If you get rejected it's likely for one of the following reasons:

1. Concerns about conduct. This usually applies to players who haven't conducted themselves very well on the server, either because of rulebreaking or because of how they communicate with their fellow players or DMs. Honestly, this is the main reason why people get rejected, and it's for a good reason. We set a high standard on this because Amia has in the past had a serious problem with DM conduct. Though for most it shouldn't be a problem, just think about how you behave towards others and the general attitude you have and be mindful of it, and you'll clear his hurdle easily.

2. Concerns about inactivity. I know this might seem hypocritical given my own inactivity lately because of RL reasons but if you're not playing on the server much at all, then it's likely that you're going to be rejected because of it. Though I'll note that while this can get the application initially turned down, if it's the only concern then showing consistent activity can likely get it turned around. RL stuff tends to fluctuate and people usually have reasons for their inactivity, and it's understandable but when inactivity causes a DM application to be rejected it's likely because the applicant has only been playing a month or two at a time, then vanished for 3+ months periodically.

3. Lack of understanding of the setting. This is a rare reason but if the applicant hasn't shown any understanding or grasp of the lore of the setting, it can bar you. However being willing to learn and asking before assuming stuff is key here. if you don't know, then simply say that you don't know much about the lore and ask for help to learn. When people get barred because of this, it's generally because they've shown no interest in learning at all and invent stuff that's not consistent with the lore nor the setting of Amia.

Those three are generally it. It might seem like a big ask, but I don't think it is. Knowing the DM client isn't a pre-requisite and it's stuff that can be taught and learned. Same goes for learning how to run events, how to come up with ideas for events and so on. And I think we'd all rather have DMs that can conduct themselves appropriately, are around (barring intermittent RL stuff), follow the rules and run events that are setting and lore appropriate. If you feel that you fit the bill and are willing to put in the work, then, by all means, send in an application. The absolute worst that can come of it, is that you're rejected and given the reasons why so that you can improve on those areas if you wish and apply at a later date.

I think we all agree that we could do with some more DMs to pad the activity and give players more fun events and random interactions or help speed up requests and get more admin work done that's required to keep the server going forward.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

You're missing my point.

This isn't me being salty about my DM application, or the requirements for becoming a DM being too high. My point is that there has been way more players than there has been DM's, and there has probably been many players that have wanted to become DM's but haven't because of different reasons and barriers (Some legitimate, some percieved). Therefore it comes across as distasteful when you on one hand complain about how hard it is to be a DM, while on the other you have set barriers in place to stop most people from seeing and trying it out for themselves. You're privileged to have gotten the responsibility of being DM's, it's not something we should feel sorry for you for being.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Every time I want to post in a thread like this just explaining the logic behind why I left, I stop because I feel like people will just see it as bitching. I rewrote this post three time s before I wrote this instead. Suffice to say, a large part of player levels dropping was DM corruption issues; two DMs in particular (that are gone now, thankfully; though I'll add that DMs also left the team because of them). Lack of communication was a big thing, too: you never saw anyone say what Lutra has in his bullet list in this thread (fuck yeah, man, that explains a lot to people!). In fact, those issues have plagued Amia dev work for years now, but it's always seemed like the team wanted to keep it hush-hush, like it would ruin the server's brand, lol. But it's all circular. Players get upset, DMs get upset, people leave, less people are on, less people think to log on, numbers drop, stagnation happens, etc.

I want to log in, I want to RP, but when I look at the list all I can think is 'why bother?' because there's less than 10 people on every time I look. Which I know everyone does, but I can't help that it's more entertaining for me to log into OW for a few hours than have sparse RP for the same time. I don't know, maybe the time for Amia has passed for me. Maybe not. I'm freaking thrilled to see the server have new players, though! I guess I'm just crotchety because it will never be like it was back in 2010 and the few years after.

I fucking love you, Amia <3

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Alright. I had held off on writing this, because I too felt like it would come off as complaining. I didn't know if it belonged in the Farewell thread, but it seems relevant here too. Also, I honestly didn't feel it would make any real difference. I still don't, even now. I'll get into that more later. It's long winded and I could edit it 3 and 4 times over myself, but I'll just say it how it's on my mind at the moment.

I have “left” now and at least provisionally retired my characters over OoC nonsense. As I've told a few players, it's dealing with a lore retcon, done quietly and without my knowledge, either gradually over time or all at once at some point never revealed. When this was brought to my attention, I tried to discuss it with the team. I suggested that we approach it in a way similar to how it would be in the smaller, tabletop-ish way that Amia is fast becoming anyway. That is to say, together. To say “Hey, I get why you guys would feel this way, but this thing was actually pretty well thought-out. And not only does retconning or fundamentally changing aspects of it create some real problematic doozies IC, it really kills what little good faith I have left in the team. Because, as I've pointed out in previous requests, it seems like you've been slowly trying to retcon it over time anyway. Let's come up with something that works for both of us.”

I couldn't get the team to actually have a discussion about it. I was told a discussion was eventually going to happen, but it never came. I was able to talk with one DM who was nice enough to actually skype with me, but only in so much as to say that the team had already come to the consensus that it wouldn't be changing anything. I ask you. When you're already removing or changing the lore and quests of previous Dms, simply because you can't be bothered to like it or build upon it, what the hell is the point of promising a discussion about it to the player when you've already decided that you won't be changing your mind anyway?

That is core the problem I have with Amia at this point. Every time something like this comes up, the response is generally “we're sorry you feel this way, but we're not actually going to change what we're doing. We're right. It's either your fault as the playerbase, or the fault of a previous team.” Lutra's comments are a start, but they really should be the norm. Admitting faults and then acting to change them is crucial to any reasonable governing body. What will it take for to fundamentally change the approach here? What will it take for the team to say "Well, us 3 active DMs really feel strongly about this, but as good amount of players seem to want something different, we'll go with that anyway." Moreover, why does it take some sort of drastic action, like with the GM incident, to even get actual discussion and action made on these things? The sad thing is, I knew the moment that it happened, I could have made a big stink about it. I could have made a forum post, explaining what had exactly happened, had multiple players back me up and say “yeah, we actually like this and are fine with it” “why are you retconning aspects of our homebrew years later without telling the players involved?” “I don't want this stuff changed, because it gives precedent for my stuff can then be changed too, on the whim of a new team.”

But I didn't.

Because I'm tired.

And history would show that it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

As I told the team, I was tired of fighting them every time I tried to make a request. Simple things turn into big things when heels are dug in over very, very silly things that don't seem to matter to anyone but the team. You can literally look back at any number of my requests and see it. That's not including the private ones that dragged on for the same reasons.

When I said “okay, I guess I'm done being a player,” I still wanted to be a dev, and for a while thought that I would just do that. But as I gave myself time, it became increasingly difficult to convince myself to spend the effort on a place that no longer resembled what I fell in love with. As much as I consider myself a die-hard Amian, I was forced to actually look at the situation and say “wow, I guess this isn't actually the place I think it is anymore.” Or at least at the moment.

To bring this around to the actual topic, the “health” of the server at the moment is a direct reflection of of the many issues that have come to light. Yes, some of these player-spawned, but a good deal of them come from the administrative side. That's just the fact. Period. All parties involved in our server are charged to do their best to maintain it, but one party definitely has a larger responsibility to it. No other party has as much control over the server and setting, or unchecked ability to change whatever they want and when. They are entrusted to use this power actively and responsibly, but when it is not used or not used well, it leads to our current situation. Paraphrasing a former DM regarding one of my requests that got quagmired by this sort of nonsense, “it erodes the 'good faith' a player is supposed to have in the team.” And I guess mine has finally given way. I've gone to bat for the team as many times as I've given them hell, and both come out of love and respect. But just because something is a volunteer job, it doesn't mean you're given a free pass to do whatever, whenever, IF ever. If you sign up for shifts at a soup kitchen, you're expected to show up for those shifts. When you're there, you're expected to do what you signed on to do. More importantly, no matter when you come to volunteer, or how long you volunteer, or when you leave, it's still not your soup kitchen alone. It's everyone's, and you've been entrusted to steward it.

So for now, I'm just not here. As much as I want to be, the taste left in my mouth is finally so bitter that the frustration outweighs the joy. I can deal with smaller numbers, I can deal with changes coming from IC to my PCs however drastic they may be. I can even deal with the months of not being able to get a DM to do the smallest of things in a settlement. But OoCly, I cannot deal with the thought that Dms, on whims that will and do change from team to team, would decide to change personal plots and lore to set their own tastes. Even after being invited to help come up with something that didn't cause the player to lose faith in them. Even when changing the lore doesn't offer them anything, because I'll be damned if they're actually running any plots or efforts regarding it anyway. There are any number of valid issues to discuss about the server. But this is the one that has, for me, been the most detrimental to the server's “health" and led to my absence.

The DM's are not "bad guys." I have no doubt that they're trying their best. But at the end of the day, a job needs to be done, actively, consistently, and considerately. When it is not done, no amount of kumbaya or lecture on player responsibility is going to fix that. My criticism is not meant to assail any one DM, because talking to you guys individually, you've 90% of the time been approachable. Maybe there's not enough actual discussion going on behind the scenes. Or maybe I'm just the squeaky wheel and there's no grease left.

For now, I'm focusing on my RL tabletop campaigns with friends. The same friends I sometimes play through the NWN original campaigns with. And even then, I will still think about Amia and love it, if only in memory. I want it to get better. I've tried to be that change. I want to come back and continue to be that change, for myself and others. But at a certain point, I'm no longer sure it can change. And I may only be hurting myself by expecting it to.

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Oh look story time. I get to read walls for a bit today~

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This is clearly what the server needs.

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1. Cutting out areas just pissed people off (Uhm)

2. Changing loved areas pisses people off (Beastmen Caves)

2. Stagnation pisses people off.
2.5. Taking an absurd amount of time and resources to accomplish anything is asinine- People have lives out side the game. The game should have realistic time frames for what it is- a game.

3. Lack of Response Pisses people off. viewtopic.php?f=123&t=89825 (Case and point)

4. Your 'Trust' excuse is Bullshit at this point, and no one is buy-ing that snake oil.

5. The forums are toxic and the powers that be oppress talking about the crux of issues in a plain and brutally honest manner. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90390 (Case and Point)

6. They wont take any one form EST because they have no one that alines with their purview.
7. The Dev Team doesn't work as a team. They are poor at communicating and even worse at offering feed back. Or let alone much of a response at all, least it fit their desires. Take a look at the last couple of classes that got buffed. (Case and point)

8. Manny issues have been brought up time an time again yet nothing gets done to fix them and the ones that get addressed are simply 'hot fixed' usually with some half assed hot mess.

9. If you ever stand up against the BS of nepotism, or abuse you get a target painted on your back and that's it for you for the rest of time. You will be told it's always t player's fault and they just pretend nothing is their own fault and think it's some big blame game when all people really care about is seeing the problems fixed. Though the aforementioned issues tend to make you a pariah and ostracized by those in power.

10. The real problem is no one cares to fix the problems and only wants to sweep things under the rug as fast as they can. With what's left of the server you still see people who were once in power lurking the forums quick to jump in and continue to weave their own delusional ideal because they were addicted to that power and miss getting their sick power fantasy jollies by screwing with people- because this should some how make up for the shitty customers you get in retail. Trust me it doesn't; and to do this is far from the right thing.

11. With the viscous cycle of rinse and repeat of all these problems you just end up pissing off potential consumers, and in the long run with the revival of NWN EE we get to see how teams who are actually invested in a Developer's perspective on a game can thrive. There's too much OOC bullshit and false PC SJW that try not to do any damn thing about the issues. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that nostalgia and small interactions with folks who you enjoy role playing with are what keep any real form of interest in a game that has so much Corruption and ill treatment toward;s it's player base.

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@PS: I will not bother responding to everything there as some of your points are concerning specific things that this team had nothing to do with as it happened prior them joining the team. Yeah well, I know that you don't consider that as an excuse but bashing everyone for those things aren't going to change them. Especially considering that some of us (past and present team members) also fell victim to those cuts or sudden and unreasonable forced changes. Even your Dev tenure ended shortly after I joined the team so I am unsure what to say about that.
I also know that no matter what anyone of us will answer to your questions won't really matter but I will kindly point out #5 on your list. Seeing that you mentioned toxicity have you ever stopped for a moment and thought about your own responsibility in it ever since you joined the server?

@DI: Sorry about the chat thing. We were all preparing for for that chat on that day and we weren't aware that it is happening when it was happening. The DM in question shared the logs and we weren't sure what was left to be discussed unless any further question appears.



OOps..I forgot to finish that line of thought and not just that reading my post back....the forums aren't that friendly when you are writing a longer post! Reading back my post I think (I am not sure) I wanted to write down something about how we do take things granted but we shouldn't unless we all work for it with attitude, proper communication, due diligence and stuff so we can make eachother's life easier. Fairly sure I wanted to say more but can't recall it right now.

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Lord Hector Sylgerand
Glendil Fettian, the black bard

The point is, Lutra, it's not a discussion if you've already made up your mind. I'll repeat that. It's not a discussion if you've already made up your mind. And the team has a pretty bad habit of absolutely refusing to change their mind, even in the face of overwhelming player response. That's the issue, and I'm not sure how else to explain it if it's not obvious why that's a problem. That's our problem in so many ways. I'm not upset that the "discussion" didn't happen, I'm upset that there never seems to be a point of trying to sway the DM team with facts/precedent/logic because so rarely does the team differ. And half the time, its the DM team waiting for one or two DMs to yay or say something first, then the rest coming in to back them up. I don't know if it's that those sort of satellite DMs are afraid of stepping on toes, or they don't have enough confidence to make their own opinions, but the fact of the matter is it really doesn't seem like there's any real discussion happening on that end either.

Additionally, teams post-2013 I guess have had somewhat of a fetish for controlling stories that they never had control of, rather than building on them. The melodramatic parts of PS's rant aside, some of those are frustrations I've been voicing for years about consistency. How older players are run off by feeling like everything is up to be retconned or retooled under new teams. Removing areas doesn't make the remaining areas any more popular, interesting, or approachable. Why would it be any different for lore and requests? I'm reminded of a few years back when the team essentially wanted players to "re-request" their PrC approvals. The explanation was because it was hard to keep up with approvals from past teams and new DMs didn't know who was what; fair enough. But what it came across as was "let us yay-and-nay what previous teams already approved."

Retcons and removals should only be happening when the thing that would happen if they weren't removed is more detrimental. The fact that what I'm talking about was perfectly fine in lore for years, until the DM who started it left. That's all it took. He's not here to defend his plot, no one else not even the players involved can stop us from saying it happened different. We don't care for this idea, so poof, it goes away. 1) Even if that was a thing you should do, you tell the players involved, rather than quietly waiting for them to discover it years later OoCly 2) even if a retcon was done under a previous team, the current team could and should just as easily say "yeah, no, let's keep with the original story, it's not up to us to change that stuff to suit our preferences. It's their story and server as much as ours." 3) "Sorry." Does not. Cut it.

Listen. If I walk into my weekly P&P session and my GM goes "Hey, I know I took over this year-long campaign from your friend 2 months ago, but I decided that your PC is actually a demon worshiper. Yeah, that priest of Kossuth in your backstory was actually a demon." I say "Well, while that's a neat story Scott, that's not really what I intended on playing, nor what the previous GM ran. At all. I mean, I'm willing to talk about it and see what works for us both? But that's kind of shitty to unilaterally decide." If Scott then goes "No, screw you, discuss all you want, but you're in MY campaign now, and you're a demon worshiper," you know what happens? I pick up my dice, I say cool beans, and I'll see the rest of you later for drinks.

Make the wrong things right and just learn to leave well enough alone. I appreciate you guys for sticking in there. I appreciate you for showing up at all. But I hate this narrative that your hands are tied and like you have no power here. Yes some issues are the ones you've inherited from past teams, but mine and I'm sure others can easily be solved by the team saying "Hey, our bad. We or a previous team made a mistake. Yes. Let's do the thing that makes sense for you here, see you in game." That simple.

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Like I told you when we had a long conversation about this we had 2 options:
1. Go with your idea and please you.
2. Stick to the actual lore

We chose option 2, and we shouldn't have to apologize for it. The fact that stuff that went against the lore was retconned by another team also doesn't mean we shouldn't back that up. It didn't fit with lore, at all. We've had plenty of shit that didn't in the past and that people didn't want. The reasoning I gave you was consistency with the lore & setting. The second reason was also that it wasn't worth re-writing the actual lore to fit your narrative, because it makes absolutely no difference IC as no character would ever know the difference or have the power to know it. It's all OOC mechanics only, which is why it probably wasn't brought up when it was retconned. Knowing tainted the IC aspect, and you said so yourself on several occasions. There's a big difference if the character in your example is a demon worshipper, or being tricked into worshipping one while thinking the god they worship is good. One has the potential for an interesting story, the other is an abuse of power.

Sure, having to retcon stuff sucks. But it's not something I'm going to apologize for when it's done because of a DM's lack of lore or understanding of it, and to ensure the setting s consistent with the lore that's already established & cannon. Standards were lower back then, it' why we had several DMs get fired over abuse of power or had to clean up after their crazy shenanigans that have no basis in lore.

Homebrew is fine, to a point, but I'm fairly sure that if the team now decided to go with Tyr actually having been a hidden devil lord all along for example, a lot of people would go "What the actual fuck?!". I don't think we're in the wrong for keeping to the lore of the setting, a discussion won't change that stance. However you and I had one where I tried to find a middle ground between that, that would work for us both.

I gave you options on angles to go, but the OOC knowledge got in the way of all of those options for you. I'm sorry for that and that you can't have fun with it, but I'm not sorry for sticking to the actual setting we are playing within. The mess would be 100 times worse if every DM did their own homebrewn events that shat on lore, especially when DMs rotate in & out, and it's why we went in the direction of keeping to the lore. It's not for our sake, but for the players.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

You're arguing that Yossarin, perhaps one of our most prolific DMs when it comes to establishing Amian lore, didn't know lore.

See, yeah, no. He knew it. He expanded on it. Later teams didn't like his expansion. At a later date.

And there was no attempt to find the middle ground. I had a few explanations that might have worked for both parties, but I was told that the census was already taken.



No. No, it's not, and I'm sorry if you honestly feel that way, because it's having the opposite effect.

You're, in paraphrase, saying exactly what I've said the problem has been with the team all along. "We shouldn't have to apologize, it was the fault of a previous team, no we're not changing our decision."

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My only suggestion to you mate is if you want this problem resolved quickly: You say that your concept fits DnD lore and it was an expansion of what is currently done? If so, that shouldn't be hard to prove. The concept is rather black and white. Either it adheres to lore or it does not.

I can understand the frustration of retcons as I am sure we have all been there at some point or another. But I would honestly have to say that at the end of it all the Previous team or the current teams MOTIVES are 100% irrelevant. Through this entire conversation all I have heard you say is they refused to change it. The DMs say they refuse to change it because it does not fit the lore. I'd suggest proving to them that it doesn't break lore. Otherwise? Why are you arguing the point?

I will also point out that I am sorely dissapointed in everyone that has spoken in this topic fairly recently. Passion and Immolation included. Because this conversation has shifted so far off its original purpose it is not even funny.

The original purpose was centered around the events that transpired over Sully's administration and constructive resolutions to bridge the gap between the player base and the administration that Sully felt was there.

There is absolutely nothing constructive about posts from either of you other than an excuse to complain.

This is where I honestly have to request that if you want to just flame and not actually be constructive please do us all the favor and take it into PMs. As others that actually care about the topic at hand don't need to suffer for it.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

The entire thing is illustrative of the overall problem. They team doesn't change it's mind often. It doesn't listen to arguments. And no it isn't as simple as you suggest otherwise, it would have obviously been solved by now, not drug on through multiple years. There's nothing I can "prove" when one party can years later say that "those facts are no longer valid."

I'd also like to add the lore addition wasn't the rogue act of one DM in the night. An entire DM team later approved, because there was a lengthy request that followed when the story/quest was done. It was nobody "shitting" on our lore, it was our lore.

I'm not looking for suggestions and I really don't care if you're disappointed in me, because I'm not trying to win your admiration or something, no offense intended. I'm more than willing to make my own topic for this, but again, it's not a discussion when one party says screw everything before us, we're in the big boy chair now, deal with it.

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I'm not really of any mind to care whether you are looking for my admiration or not. I would just rather you can act like a mature adult like I presume you indeed are and focus on constructive critisicm on this thread or making another topic for your complaints.

I don't care if you admire or respect me but I'd much rather you act mature and be respectful to both the DM team you are slandering as well as the playerbase and take it elsewhere.

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

You're mistaking valid, if frustrated, criticism for slander. I'm not saying DMs don't listen to arguments because my little feelings are hurt and saying so makes me feel better. I'm saying that because, having made those arguments, I've seen that they do not often get anywhere.

Without even reference to my situation: that's my constructive criticism. Listen to reasonable arguments. Take into account that a small group of people who have chosen their peers might still "get it wrong" when it comes to what actually is wanted or needed by a larger playerbase. When it comes to light that you've a mistake, make it right. If you can, err on the side of "why not."

There's nothing slanderous in those statements. There's nothing immature about those statements. I can make my own topic to further discuss retcons, but nothing I've said there falls outside of the spirit of "hey, here's what harms the server, and here's what we can do to fix it."

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Well if you actually had constructive criticism that is different. From what all you posted previously you were just listing a long since irrelevant slight from something to the DM team has done in the past. And did not offer a single notion of "I think we should do this to fix things"

My apologies if that was not the intent.

I will say my previous statement still stands. How they feel or what the previous teams mistakes were are irrelevant.

I do also want to point out the point made earlier that they have a tendency to blame the previous teams actions and not be inclined to fix things.

Whilst I can agree that putting the blame on people no longer here only works for so long let me ask you this:

If someone were to be told something was okay and 100% lore appropriate by someone on the previous team and then the newer people found it was not. Wouldn't correcting that said error BE infact fixing the problems that the other team left behind and not blaming them for things and moving on?

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar

"Slights" that were in keeping with the one that led to my leaving a few weeks ago. Making a decision, having valid counterarguments made against them, and then shrugging. It's a cycle. I'm not going rabble rabble, you guys screwed up way back when, I'm saying the same mistakes are continuing to be made and it seems to be ticking people off. If they're irrelevant, then so is the criticism that DMs don't tend to act on criticism but blame prior teams, because all you have to go off of then is prior example, a year back, a month back, two weeks back.



Apology accepted, and sorry if you felt my frustration was directed at you.



Can't do that topic justice without, as I said, making it its own thread. A crux of it is: is the server lore established by previous teams(not just "one" DM), built upon by players and DMs, subject to complete revision or revocation by every new team that comes after it. It's not a as simple as one team saying something is "100%" correct in lore and then it being "discovered" later that it is not. It's one team saying "this is the lore, the base lore hints at it enough or leaves the possibility for it, and our homebrew overrides vanilla lore" and another saying "No, it doesn't" years later, when those DMs are no longer in power. Homebrew doesn't override vanilla? Cool, then how do our housebrewn rules for classes, settlements, and post-1385 FR lore stand? How do you pick and choose, and if so, where is the consistency then from year to year?

That, once more, is not the topic at hand. Suffice to say that's a valid discussion to have, rather than be told "no, there's no discussion there." That notion, on the other hand, is part of the topic at hand. For the sake of that waylaying the topic further, I'm not dragging it on here, merely repeating: the server's health is adversely affected when discussions are curtailed and players are left with no real signs or effort of change being made. That's all I got left to say here.

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The few points that have been made have been made, and I'm seriously getting pissed off at the whole idea that the DMs are evil and corrupt and don't listen because we don't give you everything you want.
"The DMs don't listen to arguments." Seriously? We listen. We spend half our time listening. We spend half our time arguing (not debating, because that would require new points to be made) with a very few people who don't get their own way that we lose dozens of hours of time we could actually be making the server better and doing events. THEN we get criticized for inactivity. There really is no win with some people. So if it seems like we're not listening to someone anymore, it's probably because all that can possibly be said has been said, things have gone hostile towards us, and we're just done dealing with that shit.
If this topic is going to continue to go off the rails and be nothing but complaining, toxicity, and points repeated so much my eyes start to bleed reading them, with little to no constructive feedback, I'm going to lock this thread.

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Stop fighting. At this point the past is the past, and when the past is brought up, it becomes a shit storm of attacks on one another. At this point, we need to figure out the future of this server. What can players do to improve on it and how they can interact with the world, along with building upon it to make it better. I pose this question at the dms.

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."