Recently, I've seen multiple parties of six or more fight a single shifter, who manages to destroy the entire party. This is a party of generally competent people. Gerald, Aiseth, Andrew Fryar, Frugdar, Sullivan Ryker, Samael, and more, across two engagements. The shifter, or shifters, always destroy the opposing party, no matter what.

Greater ruin, hellball, and some lucky hits with a sword did nothing to their Wraith form.

Moreover, I have learned that Monk unarmed attacks work with wraith unarmed attacks. You get Monk BAB with the wraith form. This is clearly not intended, as noted in the class changes page.

I've also been in parties with shifters, and seen shifters solo some of the hardest bosses on the server... And then proceed to wipe the floor with my wizard if there's any kind of altercation. Are there any limits to shifters?



My suggestions are as follows for Shifters, whom are quite overpowered (unless you're just bad... I've heard people say Shifters are underpowered, and that's plainly untrue.)



1. Remove HiPS on Wraith form. It's silly. You're giving so many class benefits to one form... Undead immunities, HiPS, massive HP, sneak attacks.... It's overpowered as fuck. One of these needs to go, and I nominate HiPS. Leave that for Shadow Dancers. If they really want, they can still take 6 levels of Shadowdancer to get HiPS, and then they get shadow jump too - fine. They took the class levels for all that. That's great. They shouldn't just get it for free, however.

2. The only forms epic shifters ever use in an average altercation, if they know what they're doing, are the undead forms, or golem forms. Specifically, iron golem. Iron golem is a weapon master with massive DR, HP, gear merging, a huge enchanted sword, and construct immunities. I think the weapon master feats should be removed. They'll be tanky as shit still, they can still hit hard and still have a big sword, but come on, you need the weapon-master-only abilities with that? Once again, stealing the thunder of other, specialized classes, and stuffing them into one class. Weapon Masters had to work for years, ostensibly, to get to that level of training, and they had to take half a dozen feats and seven class levels, to get those abilities. Shifters get it for free along with everything else? Being a golem somehow imparts years of martial knowledge and mastery to them? Wow.

3. Possibly make shifter request-only. I've never seen a shifter have any interesting backstory or anything. They are always, invariably, "hi, my name is George the Shifter. My backstory is that I can transform into all-powerful beings. For no reason. No, really, I don't have any interesting story. I just have these god-like abilities. I use them however I want. Also, I'm not a real druid so I don't have to believe in anything or help nature." Really? At the very least, could we at least enforce Druid RP? They are -druids- after all. The Druid class is the only way to become a shifter, and is the only thing that gives them any flavor, but for some reason we've elected to ignore the Druid class and act as if Shifter is a base class on its own, with no lore, no reason for being, no backstory required. It's just there. It's dumb. There's no story. There's no role play. People just appear with the ability to overshadow almost every other class at their own class specialty. Stealth? Wraith form. Damage? Wraith or golem form. Magic? You have buffs in nearly all forms, and some are casters on their own and have spell abilities; you're fine. Tank? Every form has huge HP, and some have big DR; even the gargoyle form at low levels makes you invulnerable to all enemies, allowing you unparalleled soloing capability. There's just no reason for all of this power. No story. It hurts my brain.

4. If someone says shifters are underpowered, I will throw you into the Abyss. Shifters are not underpowered. You have no idea how to play the class. They are the most powerful class bar-none.

5. Nerf gear merging pretty please. Every single piece of gear merges. That's a bit troublesome. They can merge +6 to every stat, regeneration, DR, SR, and more, into already-powerful forms. Let's just merge armor. That already gives them the capability for Arcane Defiance gear, to merge into their forms. That should be good enough.




Shifters should not solo everything. No class really should, but usually people find odd combinations of classes to solo stuff, usually going for either epic dodge or Palemaster immunities to do so. They have to build scrupulously for it. Shifters just have everything handed to them on a silver platter, including many abilities that are specific to one class, and that makes that class essentially invalid. Why be a weapon master when you can be a weapon master golem with shifter-buffs and 800 HP? Why be a Shadowdancer when you can be a wraith with HiPS, sneak attack, and 500-600 HP easily? Why be a wizard when you can be a Rakshasa and just be immune to magic? Why be a barbarian when you can... Well, be a fucking weapon master golem with 800 HP and self-buffs!? There's just no logic to it. Shifters can cover every other class in a party, and solo, can wipe another party easily. Then go solo Beholder Majesty. It's just.... Ewwww. There's also still just no RP justification for it. Why is Frugdar a barbarian? He's an uthgardt who grew up in a tribe near Luskan and has all this backstory and jizz. Why is Lucius an undead Pale Master? He underwent kickass rituals and did all kinds of cool shit and runs the undead city because of his devotion to knowledge and power. Why is a shifter so god-like and a shifter? I don't know. Why are they? There's no story.

In short, I really think that just one option here would be best:

Make shifters request-only, or cost DC's to play.

Make people actually think of what they want and give it some life, before just building a shifter for the lulz.

If that's off the table, please consider balancing shifters so they're not gods among us. It's getting a bit stupid.

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Osiris Masud

+1, every single one I've seen is vastly overpowered and can solo anything on the server. I don't play one, and I won't, I just feel the class is OP, so I avoid it.

Your post has many statements that are incorrect or flawed but will focus on a few ones that are not a matter of opinion.

Druids NWN wise are the only way to select the shifter class, not D&D wise ( if I recall wizards, sorcs, anything with another form be it spell or otherwise werewolves and such I believe can open up the class)

As for the statements about the gear merging we can not merge +6 to every stat let alone a single one....as I cant recall a single item on amia that grants +6 that the player base is meant to use (short of stealing DM event monster only items) Only the highest stat or skill applies, we cant use two things with +3 Str,Con,Dex,Int...ect and get +6 all stats, all we get is +3. Regeneration and immunity on the other hand does stack to a increased effect.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Where is that stated?


Thank you for pointing this out.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I have a shifter specifically focused in Spectre, with monk levels, and it's a bit disheartening to see the generalizations made in this topic. Let it be known the form is strong, but the form (and class itself) does have very great weaknesses you have to be clever to get around. Players encountering shifters also need to learn how to better deal with them other than throwing Hellballs around. Cory is correct in that many factual statements made in the original post are not true. Stacking regeneration is what I do with my shifter, and I know Cory stacks immunities with his.

Nerfing or complaining about capabilities would put many mages, clerics, palemasters, and weaponmasters in a similar boat. Can we be a weapon master one moment and a shadowdancer the next? Sure! But these forms come with drawbacks on their own, complicated gear setups, and no-where near the burst damage capabilities of the parent class. It's a jack of all trades, and some folk who decide to base their character around one of those trades should be able to reap the rewards of doing so.

That said, people should really stop abusing HiPS. I know a lot of folk who are responsible with it, and I've also seen plenty that are not. It's a move that kills interesting encounters.

[This post was edited to avoid bringing too much of my personal opinion into this.]

"As for the statements about the gear merging we can not merge +6 to every stat let alone a single one....as I cant recall a single item on amia that grants +6 that the player base is meant to use (short of stealing DM event monster only items) Only the highest stat or skill applies, we cant use two things with +3 Str,Con,Dex,Int...ect and get +6 all stats, all we get is +3. Regeneration and immunity on the other hand does stack to a increased effect."


... How do you not know what epic gear is?

There's a piece of gear that gives +6 to a single stat, for every stat, in a different gear slot for each one.


Also, I literally just had another run in with a shifter and a rogue. Party of like 7 people. Destroyed.

Now, I of course know the value of a good build, and recognize that there are other builds that can solo half the server's bosses. But I said before, those people built and geared for that, and they have specialized abilities offered by specialized classes (re: epic dodge or PM immunities. Those are on probably 80% of all soloers.) But a Shifter has all the capability to solo in one class. Just go 5 druid, 25 shifter, and you can solo (and act like you don't have druid levels).


Can you define "abusing" HiPS? I'm pretty sure it was designed to be abused. You can activate it once per round, and flatfoot people + get sneak attacks on them. That basically destroys anybody's AC and HP. When you get 5+ attacks per round with ~40 damage per hit on a person, and you flatfoot them and flank them because of HiPS, I don't see how you can say "the AB isn't that good". A DEX based weapon master would be destroyed. A wizard would be destroyed too. If they have acid sheath, well... You have way more HP than them.


EDIT:
I could've sworn to Christ that I saw on that page, here, that monk unarmed attack progression does not function while polymorphed. I suppose I was wrong. So... I can make a monk/shifter and get the unarmed attack progression in my shapes that don't use a weapon? Was that post edited or something? I could swear it was on there.

If it's not there, and never was, though, then I was wrong about it being unintended.

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Osiris Masud

There will always be people who build for the class's power, over it's RP opportunity. That's just a part of being an online game. Someone always has to or wants to win, so they make a build to do that. It's a phase. It'll pass, just like the old Bard/PM/RDDs before them.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

It seems that you are basing this on a situation you feel went poorly involving two characters based entirely around sneaking about and assassinating people. Shifter gear does not work quite well by just sticking +6 in every slot, it's not optimal. Are you saying a weaponmaster that is built for critical strikes and MAXIMUM DAMAGE? wouldn't have the AB and damage to put a shifter down if he wasn't hidden? What's stopping him from optimizing his build and throwing an entire set of epic gear on and killing a shifter in a single round? Because I've seen weaponmasters do a surprising amount of damage in one round even with critical immunity. Hell, did you know undead shifters can be one-shot by Greater Ruin? I've had that happen.

It's all about knowing what you're up against. I don't deny its strong, but the only reason my wraith form is as strong as it is, is because I play specifically towards its strengths forsaking many of the other forms. I don't just "go 25 shifter" (namely because you can't get more than 20) because the feats and that second class means a lot for your capabilities. I could talk to you all day about various benefits of class and gear combinations to make Spectre worth having alongside an epic mage or fighter, but I have a feeling you don't want to hear that. However, a shifter can't one-shot you, at least I've never seen one that can do it. I can think of many class combinations and builds who can.

I am mildly insulted that you assume no shifters have interesting characters and backstories, however, based on some poor encounters. Shifter is an amazing roleplaying opportunity and I'm not fond of this new stereotype I'm bound to be wrapped up in despite the form existing since the shifter changes so long ago.

I wasn't targeting you, Mercedes. I apologise if you did feel that way. I was more generalising about those people who actually do use shifter for it's power over it's RP.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Yeah, you're right, you can only go 20 shifter. Stick 5 levels of something else on there then.

You are saying that a weapon master can 1v1 a wraith shifter and win.

I have no idea where that belief comes from, though. You've got crit immunity, so already, the WM turns into a gimped fighter.

You have concealment and self buffs he might not have.

You have HiPS which allows you to flatfoot, sneak, and run away to buff if you so choose.

I have no idea how you can think an average weapon master has any shot against this. Your claims are as baseless in reality as you claim mine are. Also, an undead shifter being one-hit by Greater Ruin? Greater Ruin does ~150-170 on average, 350-400 at most if you're targeting undead (you can target constructs instead via the book of transmutation). I've seen shifters get absolutely blasted by GR and Hellball in undead OR golem form and live to tell the tale. Anecdotal evidence goes both ways. Again, I have multiple recent experiences with this, and many past experiences as well. A shifter used to tell me how nerfed and underpowered shifters were, as they solo'd the beholders, got blasted by multiple GR's while in golem shape, drank one heal potion and kept on soloing.

Also, as said, in regards to backstories, I've never met a shifter with any real backstory. Ever. I've met lots of them. Half the time, they barely even role play. I'm not saying you do this, I'm saying that there are loads of people who do do it.


Also, stop talking about abusing HiPS and stuff. HiPS is the way it is. There's no abuse. There's only your own unwillingness to use it. That doesn't affect the capabilities of the class, or the power of the class or ability. That affects only your own personal performance, because you made up this "abuse HiPS" thing. If you have HiPS, use it all you want. I'm saying Shifters shouldn't have it to begin with.

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Osiris Masud

By 'abuse' of HiPS, I believe she might be referring to it's use in the middle of the open with no shadows nearby. As it is said that you must be within 10ft of a shadow larger than yourself to use HiPS. People who use this in open fields are abusing that.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

I have a shifter I quit playing because I couldn't get into the RP of it. Now, that said, yes they are silly powerful, but its entirely dependent on their gear set-up. Mine was not even geared real well, nor built to be good at any one form, and with only one epic item. But I do agree with the OP to a point. I mean I had a very well geared WM kill himself on my damage shield while I just stood there in one form. The combos available can be a bit silly. A well geared/built shifter is hands down one of the most powerful things on the server, if not ~the~ most powerful.

If anecdotal evidence goes both ways, then it would appear there are situations where shifters both are great and suck. Your claim was that it's overpowered. Is it? It seems like you don't like the whole package deal thing, or you think they didn't make a good enough "investment" in their class to get what have. Like I said, my spectre is particularly good because I built for it in feats, class composition (that 6 monk is a huge difference), and gear setup. Do you know the build, item layout and buffs of the guy who killed you? How about his friend?

There are indeed encounters and builds you can't just run at and swing a sword with big numbers and expect to win. I have seen Weaponmasters non-crit for large amounts of damage in good gear, and a decent round could very well be lethal.

Something being good and putting you in an unfavorable position does not make it overpowered. To consider balance, you have to take other builds into account as well. We have forms suited to take on various types of encounters, and it may seem overpowered in some areas more than others. However, as someone with two shifters, an Arcane Archer, multiple mages and a plethora of rogue/fighter folks, I have seen my Solo-ability go up at great cost to my killing speed, which means to say I trade damage for defenses when making the build by nature of the beast.

This is bringing back bad memories of the HiPS nerf and all the bad mojo thrown both ways regarding.

I am inclined to agree with ML on the fact that if you know your shit with the shifter, you are going to win. I have no idea about the solutions though. Also I do not know about how well made is the backstory of a character who happens to be a shifter, but I do know that I will buy the whole internet to the shifter that actually gets to know every creature that he uses, instead of just randomly "being able" to shift into it.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

Moved this to GD.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Since the spread sheet seems to list all the shifter's strengths, why not add their weaknesses to the spreadsheet as well? Players couldn't then go 'y u so powar' because it falls upon them to have done their research and prepared accordingly. If not, should have looked it up instead of arguing their overpowered. A bit of research goes a long way.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

There are counters to shifter. Learn them. I will not tell you how to directly counter shifter, as I would be doing myself a disservice. You're playing a character who isn't powerbuilt, and has very little AC -- my build is a direct counter to yours. You're going to have a rough time against a crit-immune target, as would any WM.

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Saevel Irithyl

I can talk on this point, since I was there. While they may be competent players, nearly all of them froze up, didn't do 1/4 of what they could have. Which is fine, totally expected in pvp. So this point, I believe, isn't about shifters being overpowered.

While I understand why you made this post (sort of), anyone can make a shifter. Maybe you've noted, but shifters fight other shifters too. The ones you're targeting in this post, myself included, typically win. There might be more to it than the builds.

One last thing! And I hope I don't get in trouble for this. It's purely as an observation. In your rebuild MisterLich, you got rid of some vital feats. Which tells me that maybe, you're not the most experienced builder. I could be wrong, I don't know if you did it for RP or what. But to make a post that one particular build is overpowered, but gimp your own... I don't know! Assumption.

Just comes across as an angry post.

How is a PC weakening their own build, based on RP, a bad thing? Heck, that's actually pretty amazing. Go Lich!

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Well since it was moved from the improving amia forums don't have to keep it super constructive anymore

So I can say and agree with some of the others, Shifters are not super powered gods, but sure for the sake of argument lets say shifters are superman.... try using Kryptonite instead of the same old bullets.

If anyone has ever seen justice league doom, its a great example of how brains and planning > so call super powers.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Oh absolutely. I just wasn't sure his reasoning. If it's for RP, great!

It's never a bad thing. But when you get beat in PvP (or even PvE) after gimping yourself, well, some of the onus is on yourself. I believe that was the point trying to be made. Which is valid, to some accord. I'm not saying ML is just butthurt whining or anything, but how you build your char definitely plays into your PvE/P encounters.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I definitely am not targeting just 2star or 5star, they're just the most recent shifters I've dealt with, lol.


But no, there've been three instances of fighting shifters recently, and it's always ended with even one shifter getting into wraith form, wiping the rest of them. But that's not the first time I've seen that. I've seen it happen on other characters (wizard for example), or other players characters, or seen them solo all kinds of things, and it just feels like they've got a few too many abilities.

Also, Frugdar's rebuild is not meant to make him more powerbuilt necessarily, but he does gain AC and AB from it, at the expense of very small amounts of damage (which he's never been short of, anyway). Blind Fight doesn't help him anyway because he's got other things to take care of that, that are trade secrets. And yes, it's partially for RP, I want that custom feat to get him to be a bear warrior, one of my favorite PRC's in D&D, and something I've been trying to accomplish for some time in Amia.

Also, this is not an angry post, it is a post going "wtf" at an odd class that doesn't seem designed correctly.


Lastly... "The ones you're targeting in this post, myself included, typically win. There might be more to it than the builds."

Who am I targeting exactly? Yes, there have been several instances of pvp with 2star, 5star, and Sana (whom I am assuming is your character, though you aren't exactly in the same league as them. I have a strong recommendation that you not brag about how awesome you are at pvp.) But those aren't the only shifters in the world. Come on now, are you really so arrogant that you think fighting those two a couple times has got me upset? I get along with them OOCly just fine. I just think the class is overpowered.

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Osiris Masud

The Shifter class is not overpowered, people just don't know how to counter it -- because like you said, it's an odd class. It takes time to learn Shifter mechanics, for those playing the class, and those looking to counter it. It's not a point-click class where you can button-win against people with no Mind Blank.

That said, I'm going to kindly step out of this topic.

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Saevel Irithyl

I'd also like to mention something; why should nerfing the mechanical benefits worry you guys so much if you're "in it for the RP"?

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

No one wants to play a useless class. I'd go more in to that, but this isn't the thread.

Shifters have counters, I've fought against, trained with and played shifters. They're there. You're going against a jack of all trades, but remember few are a master of none. Some will build around one particular form, so you need to find the key to them (yes, even that annoying construct form, there's a glaring weakness there)

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Again, I have a shifter, as well as several other fairly well known powerbuilds. My own personal opinion, again is that shifter is OP'd as compared to more specialty classes. Its not jack of all trades, master of none. It can compete on par with near any build specialized to do anything that the different forms do, but has the options to change its role, where-as the others are stuck doing that one thing forever.

I play a Necro-cleric on a server where Death Ward and Neg. Protection are aplenty, as is 35+ Fortitude saves. I know what being useless feels like and I still enjoy it thoroughly! And a typical day for her is me sitting in a lonely quiet room taking screenshots of RP!

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to embarrass you with the post I made, honestly. Forget I said anything, and I'll remove myself from this post as well.

That's an unfair comparison. You did that to yourself. Your class isn't nerfed, your char is ;p

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I am horrible at builds, so I'm not even going to try to discuss what specific changes will help balance this or not. I have absolutely no idea.

Shoot I managed to mess up a rogue okay? A rogue. (Thank you guys for helping me with that in the build thread ages ago, by the way.)

But, that said, I am chiming in just to say I totally agree shifters need a nerf. Over and over again I hear from people who actually do know their stuff with building that they are, without a doubt, the most overpowered class on the server, and I would very much agree through my experience. I've also seen entire parties of characters from very competent builders be party-wiped by a single shifter. Even if they weren't good at builds, this shouldn't be happening. That's absurd.

The only suggestion I can offer is that I really think Shifter should be a "jack of all trades" class. Really, it makes sense. You can turn into a lot of things, so you should be able to fill a lot of different roles, but not be exceptionally great at any of them — not as much as a specialist in those roles would be. So, for example, the stone golem form should be a good tank, but not so good that it beats out a defense-oriented fighter or paladin build. (Which I've seen them do.) Wraith form could be very good at hiding, but shouldn't beat out shadowdancers in it. Et cetera.

Right now, they're just really versatile and also extremely good at pretty much anything they want to do. Again. Single characters, party-wiping either groups of other level 30's. Shoot, I remember one instance where a pair of shifters set up on the Amian Frontier road and literally murdered half the server by just killing everyone who walked by, and every party that came to stop them. Do shifters have "counters"? Perhaps. But the fact that shifters have to have a specific "counter" in order to be defeated at all should say something. No one character should be able to beat six others of their equivalent level, except in very extraordinary circumstances. That's, by definition, a balance issue. With shifters, though, it happens regularly.

It is, quite simply put, absurd.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

I'd like to add that my Spectre shifter would not ever fight Cory, because it would not work.

I've thought about asking him to duel just to see how long it would take for me to die.

I must say, I have red through the entire thread so far and I haven't seen a strong argument against the few valid points made in the original post:





I think everyone agree that they're overpowered. I personally don't mind that they are. If it's RP we're here for, who cares if one class is superior to others. It even make things more interesting.

Ok, going down the line on your points.

1. I'm sneakier in epic kobold form than I am in wraith form, with more sneak dice, improved evasion, freedom, as well as HiPS. So in effect you're complaining about HiPS which we still have the cooldown every other shadowdancer has to deal with. We wouldnt be able to shadowjump in a shifted form since we cant use items or widgets while shifted, only potions.

2. Outnumbered 7 to 1 you're right that we would use a tanky form. The other epic forms do more specific jobs. (it takes me three specific shifts to kill a certain boss, and even then if they get a good damage roll I'm dead) If you'd like to compare feats, depending on race, it takes a minimum of three epic feats (2 great wis and the actual feat) to get construct shape. That's only if you're maxing your wisdom each level. If you're not, it's more feats to use shape. For a lot of shifters, it's the capstone of our prestige class since dragon shape has a host of issues. How many people complain about a winterwight? The maxed out blackguard summon? A level 30 bard song? And I've seen wizards and sorcs kill more than seven characters by themselves. Nerf casters?

3. If I wasnt focusing on having only one character I would totally make George the shifter. So if I understand you correctly, you want a character to be fully vetted to change shapes, but if they want to hellball, greater ruin, time stop, mass haste then all you have to say is "I grew up in a wizard school with my friends ron and hermione"? Not all shifters are druids. In DND the shifter class does NOT require druid levels. It's a NWN engine limitation. In fact the most powerful shifter build that can be made doesnt have druid levels at all in pen and paper. (one day pun pun, one day) Shifters can be shamen, failed wizards, natural shapeshifters, the list goes on. The only requirement is that it has to have in pnp is an alternate form, 3rd level spells, and alertness. Do you realize the classes that fit that bill? It's a ton. You should be able to come up with a backstory that explains that. What you're asking is only a short step to making a request to play ANY character.

4. Shifters can be underpowered. It all depends on if they focus on a form, or focus on adaptability. Shifters that have focused in one form have weaknesses that are easy to exploit. It's not the shifter if you dont know how to put down an undead or kill a construct.....

5. Before it was changed on Amia, shifters had to memorize a chart of what forms merged what. Now it's a whole lot better, however we still have a few things that dont work right, but that's the limitations of the engine. Dragon forms already only merge armor. Using your example would you like it if your barbarian could only use armor? Shifter forms, unless you focus on one form, arent optimized like a build would be. Using your example of the wraith, the stats a shifter would get using a +6 item is the same as a non shifted rogue with 14 strength using items that add up to +12. You're telling me that's overpowered? Nerf rogues?

Any class can solo to an extent. Heck, your basic fighter/weaonmaster/rogue can solo bosses around the server. Shifters have to build carefully if they're going to focus on a form. Their buffs go away very easily if you try even a low level dispell. Yes, shifters can cover another class that's missing in a group. However, they cant do it as well as the class that was made to do it can. Heck, a bard with 8 in all physical attributes can solo every area if they know what they're doing. Should we nerf bards? No. Why punish players who get to know their class? You want to make a class dc request only just because you got beat. Either you were unprepared for the fight, or a few of those 7 didnt join in. Had it been your wizard that killed 7 without batting an eye, you would think the same.

It does make things interesting, but it also makes things kind of ridiculous.

I think this particular issue is only just coming to light because, as I mentioned, there's a particular band of 2-3 shifters who are very consciously harassing most everyone on the server on a regular basis. To the point that I'm advised by most people to just ignore them entirely, because apparently they're just "trolling". In my experience, this has actually been sort of accurate, but I've only been involved in one incident with them. Then again, I've only met them once outside of Cordor. Make of that what you will.

Naturally, this isn't the reason for changing the class, but it does provide a perfect example of why this imbalance is a significant issue. While it does make things more interesting in that it creates conflict, it's the wrong kind of conflict. It's the conflict that can't actually be resolved. Because, again, entire parties are being very easily solo'd to death.

There are, very easily, ways to be just as interesting with a wizard, a barbarian, or anything else. In the same ways, even. (A little disappointed we don't have more bandit PCs on this server in general.) The only reason it's happening with shifters is because they're so strong. It's a balance issue, and it is an issue, and it does come up as a problem during RP as a result.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

You mean shifter buffs that go away with the smallest of dispells and a weaponmaster that has mid 40's ab if they're lucky?

Okay im not going to lie, it is -obvious- who we all are talking about, and they know it also. When five shifters randomly show up, also have knight commander levels and monk levels.. they kill everything. immunties, free regen, free buffs from hell... shifter needs to be DM approved only OR heavily nerfed. It is insanly powerful to the point i quit playing it. it was no fun being able to solo everything that literly so many people chose to play them and just randomly show up going 'I CAN SHIFT TOO HURR'. but then you get shifters who shift for no reason. just.. random ass reasons i remember one saying he could shift because he ate god flesh.

anyway short and very much bitter: Please just.. either force shifters into a alignment/ DM approved only status or nerf them PLEASE. I literly rarely play because every day i end up hearing the same five shifters attacked someone, kidnapped someone, were attacked and killed 202034 people, threatened by them when we cant do anything about it( even if were under level 5 which i against the rules anyway) abused the rules in PVP... plenty of shit. and im TIRED OF IT. id rather not play then have the chance of running into the shifters as i end up sour and angry because they threaten me. so i end up completely ignoring them and end up feeling bad because id rather ignore their existence then roleplay they even exist.

I spoke to them before and they -willingly- told me their only here to be mega kill shit evil and i dont care anymore.

anyway im going to shut up and go make waffles to calm myself.

Because a band of 3 wizards couldn't kill or harass people in an extremely efficient manner. Or shadowdancers, or...

I remember trapnests pretty fondly, too.

Also, I've been playing this shifter for a while and the other longer-- I've known quite a few, as well. It's suddenly only a balance problem and apparently never good roleplay, just because certain folk are really dedicated to exploiting it against the server populace?

Solvaras, just a quick question. If what you're saying is true, why are shifters party-wiping groups of very capable people?

Because it's an undeniable fact that this is a thing. We've witnessed it firsthand.

And, if shifters aren't overpowered, why can't other classes do the same? You don't hear about barbarians party-wiping a group of level 30's consisting of mages, tanks, and rogues. Nor do you hear of mages doing the same, in most cases. Yet, again, this happens regularly. We see rock golem forms very frequently outdo capable warriors, wraith forms outperform capable rogues, et cetera. And then they get really nice HP on top of it, to boot. It's not the "jack-of-all-trades", as it probably should be; instead, it's the master-of-all.

I reiterate my point. Just because something has counters, does not mean it isn't overpowered. The fact that there are such specific counters just reinforces that point, in fact. Most classes have many counters. Saying that shifters have a few counters does not make your point more convincing. It just means that they aren't literally unstoppable.

And something does not have to have DM God Mode to be overpowered.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

Mercedes it isnt even roleplay, all they ever do is threaten people, piss people off and drive people not to play. last time i got on? i was killed THREE TIMES by the same shifter. why? because he wanted my cloak. thats all. thats it. thats all they ever do. random ass forced PVP, or piss people off enough that they band together in and attempt to kill them.

then 10 people cant kill a single person, shit is wrong.

Can this be locked for intermission? <.<

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

And locked for now, until people cool down.

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

Alright, unlocking again now. Please try to not let tempers flare this time and take a moment before posting if you feel such rising.

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

First off, if someone or a group of someones arent following the pvp rules screenshot it and shoot it to a dm.

To answer Tyrak, the simple answer is "I don't know". The more complex answer is from what has been said, they appear to be using synergy and teamwork. Not trying to sound sarcastic either. Shifters have synergy with a lot of classes. When combined they can do awesome things. I was in a group of shifters before with one risen lord, one vampire, and the stone golem. To say things died fast was an understatement. And that was when vamps had unlimited harm casting.

To me clerics and wizards are overpowered on a lower level server like ours. But, being a shifter I adapt and find ways to overcome obsticals. In traditional tabletop dnd, undead and constructs are there for the express purpouse of screwing over warrior types. You have to rely on turning or switching to weapons that will hurt their vulnerabilities. So it's no surprise when people think they're op.

Shifter builds are powerful, yes. Do they need to be lowered just a bit in power, perhaps. But if you think about it every build is powerful is done right. Wizards are obviously most powerful. The trick is adapting to the server and finding a tactic to defeat your enemy. Being a Dev Critter has to fight the Shifter before he can shift forms. A good Weapon master should be able to one hit KD / Dev / Kill anything.

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Hork the Ork - Barbarian Ogrillion. [ac]
June Lucaus - Division One Marksmen.

Available RP Times : Weekdays [4:30 PM - 10:30 PM]
Weekends [10:00 AM - whenever.]

[/ac]

Seriously though, if one shifter can hold off multiple other characters that's pretty crazy. One on one, unless the shifter player is slow to adapt or has bad luck, the shifter will win. It's been seen time and time again. Sphinx is the current world record holder there, but not everybody is a God of PvP (tm). This new group of shifters works very well in tandem OOC which translates to a very potent IC force. Would they still be badass with any other builds? Sure. Would they be a nigh-unstoppable force like they are now? Probably not.

I'm not sure what could be done to modify shifters so it's more balanced because I don't know the numbers. But I think a discussion should be had involving the most powerful PVP builds and how we can reduce the frequency with which certain prestige classes dominate.

Before it comes up: Mathus is a pretty hard counter to any shifter but I don't really feel bad since they're a solid bet versus almost any character in the game, and I'm around so rarely (and give a shit so little about PVP) it barely matters.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

First off, people did, but they're still around. A little less random PVP and a little more baiting-people-into-attacking-them-first, nowadays. But that's aside the point; this thread is about shifters, not about those shifters that we all know. (If those guys break the rules again, I definitely encourage whoever's the victim in such to screenshot and report it immediately, would do us all a lot of good.)

Back on topic, with that out of the way!


Note that by no means do I insist that a group should not be able to do well. When I told Daniel that shifters being good at PVP does not make them any more interesting for plots than wizards, barbarians, or any other class, I moreso meant when they are in groups. With a well-balanced group, people can do a lot of amazing things, from saving the world to really efficient banditry. (Again, I'm sad we don't have more well-played bandit PCs.)

But the key-word there is "group". Such ventures should be taken up by groups of people, if you plan to exert your influence over other groups of people in such ways. Synergy and teamwork are a must, and they're possible with many, many combinations of classes. And you're right, shifters do and should have the unique advantage of having a lot of options, due to their ability to transform into many different things. That's kind of the point of the shifter class. It's how it should be. "Jack-of-all-trades" and all.

The problem right now, though, is that those individuals forms are... honestly, kind of overpowered. The problem is not with a group of shifters being able to work together to do very powerful things. The problem is with a single shifter being able to do things that would normally require a whole group — and then being able to do them better. The problem is with a single shifter being able to take out a group of four or five other level thirty characters without honestly having too much difficulty with it. The problem is with the fact that a well-built shifter, in a one-on-one duel with almost any other character on the server, is... Statistically, almost absolutely guaranteed to win, in my experience.

I have literally never seen a shifter lose a fight, against a level 30 character or otherwise. Oftentimes I've seen two level 30's go at it, one being a shifter, and the shifter doesn't even get below Barely Wounded. There are frequent events (one which occurred today) in which groups have gone after shifters on the server and outnumbered them three, or even four to one, and got absolutely whipped. Even when those fighting against them are very good at character builds, they still get creamed, because they are not shifters.

These are the situations that I, and others, have an issue with. When this is a very consistent thing happening, and it is, then shifters are almost certainly, by the very definitions of the terms, overpowered and unbalanced.

And if it's overpowered and unbalanced, we should do something to fix it.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

I'm not seeing how this is any sort of balancing problem. As far as I'm aware those player who spend any amount of time grinding bosses on the server are, by default going to have an exceptional advantage over a majority of the server on gear alone. Add to that the experience as a player to be successful at doing so makes that difference even greater.

So what exactly would be accomplished by bringing in a Nerf hammer for the small percentage of the server who have learned the intricacies of their class? I play a full shifter on occasion, and just like Shadowdancers, have severe disadvantages associated with their class advantages. That a majority of players have not or are unwilling to find and exploit these disadvantages themselves is the problem of Shifters how?

This isn't' the first time that a player or group of players have risen to epic heights. Thinking back to some of the various incarnations of the Horseman faction, there were several times when only DM's spamming Greater Ruin stalled some of their coordinated strikes. What classes were nerfed due to them? I don't really see a viable solution that doesn't severely penalize players who do not powerbuild. And if this the way things go, please teach me that thing where any Shifter can solo bosses, cause I can get owned by stiff breeze, it's really embarrassing...

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

here then, a simple nerf that would help fix the issue:

Shifters no longer can use -any- potions/items when shifted, thus can't randomly use a heal potion if the creature doesn't have a mouth/hands o an item that spawns out their ass. it would limit their ability and buffs to their spells or what they ready before hand.

and

put a timer between shifts so they can't just slip out of form to use a form to use items and slip back right away.


Those two simple things would near instantly make any shifter a hella lot easier to deal with, does it make it more annoying for the shifter? sure. Does it make shifter unplayable? no.

Since this thread is heavily implying that there is misconduct on one side of the road I'd like to point out that the incident today(1/24) had many attempts by the accused party to diffuse it peacefully and was instead initiated by the party creating this thread now.

I'm honestly surprised people will still step up to the plate ICly after literally dying multiple times to the same attack plan. Shedding blood isn't always the answer, and certainly after experiencing death a few times people could be expected to learn that it really isn't going to help them. Do characters learn so little? Has death become so meaningless?

And as stated it may be alternative factors that cannot be quantified such as player skill, player knowledge, group cohesiveness.

The fact that this entire thread is sparked by lost PVP and flagrantly boiling in the OOC stew of it is really getting in the way of a constructive conversation. Surely there may be a balance discussion had but not with the atmosphere of this thread.

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bad man