AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

My build topic advice: don't take Glyph's advice.

A cleric Crossbow user.
Suggestions on how to beef up AC a little while shooting bolts?

Monk or going DEX are the only ways. With the basic Divine Shielder/Mighter you get feasible enough an AC, but you'd still be buggered for not using shield.

I suppose it's Feasible to switch into Sword 'n' Board when enemy is close.

That'd make the use of crossbow pointless. Monk or DEX-based if you want to make it efficient and all day.

6 Monk nets +8AC. It will weight up the loss of Fullplate. And doesn't cripple it to much, I suppose.

Hello.
I have a concept in mind but need some help to figure out if its worth a try. The idea is a elf thief dualwilding daggers or shortswords. Classes intended to use are rogue and bard dex based.

thinking a minimum of 13 rogue to grab epic dodge.

But the main idea is to get as many of the thief-skills as possible like pickpocket, open locks, disable traps, apprise and maybe craft and set traps.
Any ideas or tips?

I would consider 20Bard/10Shadowdancer. That would allow you to take both Epic Dodge and Lasting Inspiration. Many Rogue skills, including stealth, detection, and pickpocket can be taken by those two classes. Unfortunately Open Lock and Disable Trap can't, but you can put some points in there crossclass and allow your Bard Song skill boost, Dexterity modifier and items to make up the slack

Ye, That should net you abhorred amounts of skill-points.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

I would consider 20Bard/10Shadowdancer. That would allow you to take both Epic Dodge and Lasting Inspiration. Many Rogue skills, including stealth, detection, and pickpocket can be taken by those two classes. Unfortunately Open Lock and Disable Trap can't, but you can put some points in there crossclass and allow your Bard Song skill boost, Dexterity modifier and items to make up the slack

Will consider this. Will have a really sorry damage output whit no sneaks but other than that it seams good.
How does pickpocket work nowdays? if i remember right it was chanced way back. And is apprise to any use or just a waist of skillpoints?

Can't help with pickpocket. Sorry.

But Apparise works in this way; That for every 3 Points you receive 1% Off@ buying, and 1% More cash by selling.
It's capped at 20%.

('-'_'-') thou shalt not spam those without reason. besides cleric 30 is a perfectly viable sugestion, as is 3/27 with ranger for zen...

pickpocket works with a widget same as set trap, and the normal stat is decreased by 50 to prevent use of the default version, accidently or no. the full rules on pickpocket are http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=615495#p615495 here.

I have a semi build related question, not including scythe, which weapons are best to focus on for raw damage?

I can spare a feat for exotic so no troubles there either. was thinking spear, then I tried halberd and double axe, all about even.

27/3 is not viable, neither is 30 pure. Stop giving advice... You have no clue whatsoever.

As far as weapon with most damage, Anything with high crit range, or a x3 weapon.

30 cleric isn't viable? Pige, it's a cleric. You're silly.

Short question about maximizing BAB pre-epic for that monk/assassin/fighter build.

So I have the four levels of fighter, six levels of monk, and one level of assassin. Does it make a difference if I only keep that one level of assassin until post epic, or should I add another level to it pre-epic and take a level of monk post epic instead? I'm pretty sure I received no BAB from the single assassin level.

Last edited by ticket on Sun, Oct 10 2010, 1:35 AM, edited 1 time in total.

wuhwuhwolves wrote:

Does it make a difference if I only keep that one level of assassin until post epic, or should I add another level to it pre-epic and take a level of monk post epic instead? I'm pretty sure I received no BAB from the single assassin level.

It does make a difference and not for the better. Try to keep your assassin & monk levels pre-epic in multiples of 4.

Here's a good explanation on how BAB works:

Countess Terra wrote:

I've seen a lot of people asking about how Base Attack Bonus and number of attacks are calculated and I think that, rather than reiterate it in every single thread, it may be smarter to just to have one big thread to answer all the questions... so here goes.

Before Level 20

There are three Base Attack Bonus Progressions: 1:1, 3:4, and 1:2.

The first Base Attack Bonus Progression (1:1) is used by the Fighter type characters.

1. Barbarian
2. Fighter
3. Paladin
4. Ranger
5. Arcane Archer
6. Black Guard
7. Champion of Torm
8. Dwarven Defender
9. Weapon Master

For every level, you gain 1 to your Base Attack Bonus.

1. 1
2. 2
3. 3
4. 4
5. 5
6. 6/1 <-- 2 Attacks per round
7. 7/2
8. 8/3
9. 9/4
10. 10/5
11. 11/6/1 <-- 3 Attacks per round
12. 12/7/2
13. 13/8/3
14. 14/9/4
15. 15/10/5
16. 16/11/6/1 <-- 4 Attacks per round
17. 17/12/7/2
18. 18/13/8/3
19. 19/14/9/4
20. 20/15/10/5

The next Base Attack Progression (3:4) is used with the non-Mage, but non-Fighter type characters.

1. Bard
2. Cleric
3. Druid
4. Monk
5. Rogue
6. Assassin
7. Harper Scout
8. Red Dragon Disciple
9. Shifter
10. Shadow Dancer

For every 4 levels, you gain 3 to your Base Attack Bonus.

1. 0 <-- No gain here
2. 1
3. 2
4. 3
5. 3 <-- No gain here
6. 4
7. 5
8. 6/1 <-- 2 Attacks per round
9. 6/1 <-- No gain here
10. 7/2
11. 8/3
12. 9/4
13. 9/4 <-- No gain here
14. 10/5
15. 11/6/1 <-- 3 Attacks per round
16. 12/7/2
17. 12/7/2 <-- No gain here
18. 13/8/3
19. 14/9/4
20. 15/10/5

The next Base Attack Progression (1:2) is used with the Mage-type characters.

1. Wizard
2. Sorceress
3. Pale Master

For every 2 levels, you gain 1 to your Base Attack Bonus.

1. 0 <-- No gain here
2. 1
3. 1 <-- No gain here
4. 2
5. 2 <-- No gain here
6. 3
7. 3 <-- No gain here
8. 4
9. 4 <-- No gain here
10. 5
11. 5 <-- No gain here
12. 6/1 <-- 2 Attacks per round
13. 6/1 <-- No gain here
14. 7/2
15. 7/2 <-- No gain here
16. 8/3
17. 8/3 <-- No gain here
18. 9/4
19. 9/4 <-- No gain here
20. 10/5

Now, if you have a multiclass character...

say for example: Ranger 6 and Rogue 14

Just look up the Base Attack Bonus of the one with the lowest progression, in this case, Rogue and find its Base Attack Bonus (10/5). Now find that same Base Attack Bonus (10/5) on the next progression up (Fighter BAB) and add the 6 Ranger levels. This gives you 16/11/6/1 for the Base Attack Bonus.

Alternatively, you can look up how much BAB each class loses. The 6 levels of Ranger have no losses. The 14 levels of Rogue however, have 4 losses. Add up their total levels (20 in this case) and subtract 4 from the Fighter BAB Progression and you get 16/11/6/1 as well.

After Level 20

After level 20, your Base Attack Bonus acts like it were that of a Mage-type and you are unable to gain new attacks regardless of your Base Attack Bonus. This means that if you want 4 attacks per round, you have to get them before level 21. This causes some people to put off Mage classes until post epic if they can to maximize their number of attacks.

Here's what the progression looks like for all classes during levels 21 through 40.

21. +1 -> 1
22. +0 -> 1 <-- No gain here
23. +1 -> 2
24. +0 -> 2 <-- No gain here
25. +1 -> 3
26. +0 -> 3 <-- No gain here
27. +1 -> 4
28. +0 -> 4 <-- No gain here
29. +1 -> 5
30. +0 -> 5 <-- No gain here
31. +1 -> 6
32. +0 -> 6 <-- No gain here
33. +1 -> 7
34. +0 -> 7 <-- No gain here
35. +1 -> 8
36. +0 -> 8 <-- No gain here
37. +1 -> 9
38. +0 -> 9 <-- No gain here
39. +1 -> 10
40. +0 -> 10 <-- No gain here

If you wish to calculate your Base Attack Bonus here, all you have to do is look up your level and add the right number to what your Base Attack Bonus was at level 20.

I hope this helps all the new people that are confused about how Base Attack Bonuses work.

Ideally you want to be 8mnk/8ass/4ftr, or 12mnk/4ass/ftr. Teehee, ass.

The way it works is that there are 3 kinds of base attack bonus progression: Full, for fighter classes like.... well, fighter. Half, for caster classes, and 3/4, for the rest. Monk and assassin are both the rest.

You get 4 attacks (or 6 attacks for unarmed monk) with a BAB of 16 at level 20.

You have a BAB of +4 from your 4 fighter levels. You need +12 from your other 16. And while it might seem that youre fine, 3/4 of 16 is 12, no. The way 3/4 classes work with BAB is that they give you [+0/+1/+1/+1] for each 4 levels. So a monk gets 0 BAB at level 1,5,9,13...

You really want to keep those +0s to an absolute minimum. In fact its a neccessity if youre using the 4 fighter levels to creep up to 16. And the way to do that is to take 3/4 classes in bunches of 4. Not necassarily 4s in a row, but you want to end up at level 20 with your classes all being multiples of 4.

...ninjad. Bollox. But I took too long writing this to delete it.

Both of the posts were very useful, first "general guide" to maximizing BAB I've seen and it all makes perfect sense now, thank you very much.

For my dex monk I have decided to go 21monk/6sd/3rogue for both Hips, UMD and epic dodge (I only need 1 rogue lvl but neither 8sd or 23monk seems to gain me anything compared to 3 rogue, or what?).
In epic I'm pretty feat starved though:
Only 4 feats and 1 goes to epic dodge, I would like 1 for +1DEX ending with 26 instead for 25 basic DEX (should had started with 19 DEX, but I didnt).
2 feats left then:
Low'ish BAB means I would like epic weap: unarmed also, then theres epic prowness, armor skin, epic skill focus: Hide, MS and spot and epic fort save, 6 sweet feats I can only take 1 of, any advices?

Armour skin and EWF Unarmed would be my pick. I'd be bothered enough to make a rebuild to start out with DEX 19 and net Epic Fort or ESF Hide along with those babies.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

I'd be bothered enough to make a rebuild to start out with DEX 19 and net Epic Fort or ESF Hide along with those babies.

Well, if she ever gets into a faction or otherwice get some sweet RP, I might think about rebuilding her, so far its mostly been hack and slash I admit...

Tormak... if coming to build forum we all know 30 cleric is not maximized potential. Hence, not viable. No tumble dump. No umd. No extra feats from ranger fighter or cot... Etc, etc, hell no discipline.

I cut a difference between "viable" and "optimized potential". 30 cleric is viable on Amia because it's a cleric. Optimized? Of course it's not.

A level 3 fighter is viable on an RP server.

My point

Your head

Nope, i'm just to subtle for you T-Dawg.

You were quibbling over words.

I quibbled even further.

I quibbled the shit out you.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, here's a question for all of you:

A build I had found that I've modeled Naniko around, put Disarm and Improved Disarm as feats to take. My question, is it viable to take these feats and if not, which ones should I take?

Her class pre-epic; Fighter/Monk

Here's her stats;
18 Str
12 Dex
10 Con
14 Wis
14 Int
10 Cha

Armed or Unarmed? If going unarmed those feats are great but make sure in PvP you give the enemy back their weapons or you'll cop a Tanning.

Armed the feats are still extremely useful in PvM.

MoshingChris wrote:

Armed or Unarmed? If going unarmed those feats are great but make sure in PvP you give the enemy back their weapons or you'll cop a Tanning.

Armed the feats are still extremely useful in PvM.

Didn't you make a test regarding Imp.Disarm @ Unarmed Attacks a few pages back?

MoshingChris wrote:

Just tested it.

Yeah no longer works unarmed but it does work with a large weapon versus small and tiny weapons.

Basically you get a +4 bonus per weapon size catergory larger.
You get a -4 penalty for Imp Disarm attacks.

Ergo if you are wielding a Greatsword the bonii should appear like this.
+12 - 4 versus daggers.
+8 - 4 versus shortswords
+4 - 4 versus longswords
0 - 4 versus two handed weapons

The extra AB will only roll if you beat the opponents discipline check apparently.

It does work, but no longer works as unarmed counting as a weapon size larger.

I would say do not spam Imp Disarm ever in PvP unless you are an unarmed monk. Even as a DM I wouldn't do it.

Ten minutes of digging! But i found it!

disarm doesn't work unarmed? that sort of disqualifys a focused monk from making use of the feat...like its been said, large catagory weapons are the best for disarm focus, so greatswords, scythes, double anythings, spears, anything you can't hold a shield with.

I have a mechanically related question on the subject, I read somewhere animal companions can be disarmed but the item remains in their inventory at best, is it the same with shifters??

as for other feats, improved parry, improved power/expertise mode, knockdown, and called shot all come to mind, as does windmill if your a dex build.

ed: with your current stats expertise and int related fighting feats would fit nicely.

Glyph, Lydyn's monk uses a katana.

General mechanics: Shurikens, what good are they? I'm thinking I should go darts instead w/ zen archery for a str/wis monk.

But that makes me wonder why they're in exotic proficiency as they seem worse than thrown weapons in simple and martial. The only characters I can see using them "efficiently" are dex/wis w/zen heavy pure monks. I haven't seen any shurikens with mighty either, not that I've looked very hard.

Blade Fans.

Out of curiousity, what builds do you think are acceptable for emulating the Warden class?

Goblin wrote:

Out of curiousity, what builds do you think are acceptable for emulating the Warden class?

The what? Link plx

Well.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Warden

Sounds like
Ranger
Cleric
Druid

And the mixtures of builds with the mentioned classes included.

Sounds... annoying.

Mixing a Druid with a Barbarian you basically end up with a Ranger anyway like Very_Svensk says. Not sure where Cleric would come into it though?

There's an almost endless number of valid options.

Goblin wrote:

Out of curiousity, what builds do you think are acceptable for emulating the Warden class?

Well definately a healthy smattering of druid for the wildshape abilities,

Probably a touch of barbarian for the rage passing it off as the "primal fury of nature" iconic ability.

Maybe some CoT thrown in to help bolster casting abilities (great wisdom's in epic) while still allowing you to keeping passable melee stat wise.

It's not going to knock anyone's socks off but it could end up fitting the class.

Goblin wrote:

Well.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Warden

Warden is a 4th Ed class.

It seems like based on what I know of the class though that the suggestions blending Druid and CoT are smack on.

Barb/Druid would work very well mechanically.. level progression would be simple as-well.

14Barb/15druid/1barb

I can dig it. Rangers also gain the polymorph self ability at a high enough level. I suppose it's a matter of opinion since the information is pretty vague and adaptable?

Palemaster wrote:

Barb/Druid would work very well mechanically.. level progression would be simple as-well.

14Barb/15druid/1barb

This would mean that, the biggest advantage of a druid, The pet - is wasted.

IMO pets are a waste in general.

They say that no opinion is a bad opinion. But I have to disagree with you strongly, Animal Companions are an absolute boon.

Palemaster wrote:

IMO pets are a waste in general.

........... No. They're absolutely awesome.

The player is new, probably doesn't know about the... what +55 AB wolves? Or whatever they are.

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