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Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 5:05 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
fort summer took over the entire frozenfar + some and was hamstrung into the ground by poor dev attendance and direction including RL year long delays on simple updates that the faction was then told counted against their nebulous allotment of dm and dev time for help

also had no less than 3 plans in place for other aspects of the server that went unrealized for the same reason, everything ready to go, but 0 dm and dev support

just fyi on like, 'what did fort summer accomplish'

took over a vast swath of the server and resisted 3 pc led attempts to destroy it and had massive npc and pc backup



All point's brought to everyone's attention by Commie and many other's...many, many, many, many other times. Anytime someone tries to spark up interest in making a Evil Toon or Faction. All the negative past comes roaring it's ugly head. Rinse lather repeat. And that is the very reason why I don't play Evil Toon's. It's discouraging and detrimental to the current Amia in my opinion.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 6:14 AM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Yeah. Dredging things up from years ago will solve the problem.


Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it, if its an on-going issue it's at least worth discussing.

Impknightofireland wrote:
Anytime someone tries to spark up interest in making a Evil Toon or Faction. All the negative past comes roaring it's ugly head.


This is definitely discouraging to any evil player that's been around for a while, I gave up on Amia for years because of the lack of consistent evil RP. RP matters and I'm sure Grave is right that RP and time were invested by players for all those changes to take place. But you also need to realize that when the power is obviously in favor of the one side, it attracts more and more players to that side. Meaning a bigger and bigger difference, who wants to join the losing side with the least amount of players. Everybody wants their RP to matter, to make an impact of some sort. If they feel they wont get it on that side of the fence, they'll simply go to the other side. Which only makes the problem worse.

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waswar
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 7:19 AM 

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To me, it's more along the size of the server that stops me from actually playing, but sometimes I can stir to wander the server looking for a few people. Really, the evil is just the icing on the cake, but I feel like there was a correlation between the sudden drop off of the Chromatic Covenant with the falloff of the server population, which is why I wasn't playing for a while, and was fed up for a time.

Impknifofireland also has a point, Fort Summer from back when I roleplayed with them, stated they could only renovate as much of the fort as they did to avoid drawing too much attention, and they still managed to get attacked like that.


 
      
Guardian
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 7:46 AM 

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waswar wrote:
Impknifofireland also has a point, Fort Summer from back when I roleplayed with them, stated they could only renovate as much of the fort as they did to avoid drawing too much attention, and they still managed to get attacked like that.


To be fair, iirc, there was some foul play - metagaming that caused the Fort situation discovery and what followed after that. There even was a nice little forum fight over it too.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 9:27 AM 

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Ðraco wrote:
RP matters and I'm sure Grave is right that RP and time were invested by players for all those changes to take place. But you also need to realize that when the power is obviously in favor of the one side, it attracts more and more players to that side. Meaning a bigger and bigger difference, who wants to join the losing side with the least amount of players. Everybody wants their RP to matter, to make an impact of some sort. If they feel they won't get it on that side of the fence, they'll simply go to the other side. Which only makes the problem worse.


Indeed, this is very much true, however, it's also a part of the setting that we currently have. There are more "good" guys than flat-out bad guys on Amia, and the NPC civilian population are leaned heavily against evil people most of the time due to the stuff that's happened in the past. This means that any evil faction that is formed is going to be an underdog, and so that's the position they have to play as to survive. The underdog. It's when they try to play the big bombastic overt evil overlord route that they get "rofl stomped" into the ground, as someone so colorfully put it earlier.

You're evil, congratulations, most people aren't automatically going to fear or respect you because your kind isn't in power on the surface of the main Amian isle, in fact, people have seen dozens of your kind be smashed into the ground like ragdolls in the mouth of a pit pull, and the same happen to evil individuals that are far more powerful than you, including demon and devils of significant power. That fear of you, or respect for you, is something that you, as a player, have to earn and build on your own if you want to get it from the playerbase, and it's 100% contingent on the reaction and RP of the rest of the players. It's just the way the cookie crumbles because that's the mentality and attitude of the majority of the playerbase. Which is why my most satisfying RP done when playing as evil, has been changing that in some way, either by being accepted or doing something that got a genuine scared or surprised reaction from another PC. Like telling them that the beef jerky they just ate wasn't beef but gnome. :twisted: I've had a lot of fun playing evil Characters on Amia, but I've also never gone for the heavy PC conflict type of evil so my experience on that part is limited. (Aside of evil on evil conflict, where my devil worshipping faction got smashed by a demon worshipping one)

If we were to change this "good bias" (which is more of a neutral bias or a "keep the peace" bias/mentality) on the server, it would either have to be due to PC influence being applied, which has been stated is already something can can be done and is done OR a re-write of parts of the setting to put good and evil on a more neutral playing field, which would likely piss off even more people as it's already been pointed out that the majority of the server is leaning towards neutral or good PCs only and make them feel like the evil players didn't "earn" it, so it's unlikely to happen. Which means that the only real option left here is to start working over the playerbase IC to either start accepting, fearing or respecting you and the NPCs IC to turn them around to your side so that any faction you build up has NPC backing/support when push comes to shove, and that's something that nobody is going to do for you. And I'm saying this, not as a DM but as a fellow evil-RP enthusiast who played a few evil characters for several years and at one point ran their own evil faction, and applied the stuff I said here to have quite a bit of success with those characters.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 9:56 AM 



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If you break simple server rules, even a DM should receive the appropriate punishment for that... Like maybe a temporary ban. Being a faction leader doesn't, and shouldn't exempt you from being punished. Now, if, one week before you're unbanned, you make a bitchy post, it's not surprisibg the faction dues out. Beside, a faction is made up of far more than just the faction leader... So, one being banned isn't the problem of the DMs, especially if rulebreaking occurred.

I also love how the cheomatic covenant -and- Nec'Perya are both brought up as examples of how evil has it so hard. Nec'Perya was taken over completely based off player actions. And you didn't -have- to go for Nec'Perya. You could've gone for any other city, or gone the Fort Summer route and built something yourself.

Yeah, the Banite deal was done shittily. But, let's be completely honest. Hardly anyone from that time even -plays- anymore, and the DM that randomly done the banning isn't a DM. So, what relevance does it have?

Maybe Fort Summer had a bad time. But what should we do now? Give the faction all the updates they want? They're not active anymore.

And lastly, you know another reason why evil has it hard? Because the most vocal group makes a post around once or twice a year complaining about how shitty they've got it. On Amia, if you don't have a fun OOC attitude, you're not getting far...


 
      
waswar
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 15:08 PM 

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They were banned for an allleged thing, and returned after a pseudo investigation period. You’re indeed right that many of the players reacted poorly, and left after.

On Nec’Perys and the Covenant, no comment. I already said that due to differences in power between good and evil, it’s not just an evil meme for evil to eat itself, it’s a necessity. There’s a reason they didn’t attack say, Kohlingen.

On your comment on the Baanites, no comment. The gentlemen above already explained the situation.

I wonder why they’re not active in Fort Summer anymore.

Since when do I represent all evil? And even then, should everyone parade around like the dog that’s on fire, saying “this is fine”? I suppose in this metaphor, the dog’s house can have been burned down the third time.


 
      
freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 15:15 PM 

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Why do people who haven't played for years keep coming in to bitch about stuff?

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ZoltanTheRed
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 15:36 PM 

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Thanks for improving the server by being dismissive of criticism and passive aggressive toward people who might potentially return.


 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 16:06 PM 

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I personally hope people who played evil would come back and give it a second go. It actually seems we have DM's who let you do stuff for the worse.

Secondly, I've been thinking of rolling an evil character once more at some point. Just need to wait up a bit more for now :)

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 16:11 PM 



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ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thanks for improving the server by being dismissive of criticism and passive aggressive toward people who might potentially return.

If the only criticism being delivered is 2 years old and is about people who don't even play, it's not valid, and should be dismissed. At least that's my opinion. *shrugs*


 
      
freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:00 PM 

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ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thanks for improving the server by being dismissive of criticism and passive aggressive toward people who might potentially return.


First:

robbi320 wrote:
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thanks for improving the server by being dismissive of criticism and passive aggressive toward people who might potentially return.

If the only criticism being delivered is 2 years old and is about people who don't even play, it's not valid, and should be dismissed. At least that's my opinion. *shrugs*


That.

And also: From what I've heard how absolutely terrible and bitchy the old community was, I'd really rather not see most of the older people return. No offense to you personally.

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waswar
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:13 PM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
Why do people who haven't played for years keep coming in to bitch about stuff?



Pardon, but don’t you think it might be possible that they believe that if a different viewpoint than the one ascribed from the past might lead to server improvements? It’s not like I wouldn’t be on these forums if I didn’t care about what may happen with the server, and I did enjoy things in the past.

And Robbi, what happened two years ago happened to be with the most recent evil faction. I mean, shouldn’t it at least be conceivable that the last evil faction was from two years ago, there’s a possible problem?

And even though this was two years ago, it was consistent with years of what’s been going on with Amia. Apologies, but the rise of the initial Covenant has temporarily changed my view on the viability of evil factions more than your expectation of my optimism. As I said, when Humans observe multiple travesties by the same path, it’s not very common that they will continue these courses of actions. And, more honestly, I don’t have many people to play this with, and I do not find the prospect of leveling another character, especially alone, to be very fun, let alone to set up a faction that I know not would go anywhere, considering that on this server, I do not have my usual friends playing with me to either expedite grinding or to get up an active initial faction.

From my previous viewpoint, Nec’Perya was years after the Bhaanites, and the Covenant years after Nec’Perya. And with DM statements affirming that being a weak underdog is an intrinsic part, I just don’t see what’s changed, lol. And no, I’m not saying that the DM’s can’t have that viewpoint, but it does keep me at the very least skeptical of the process of jumping onto another evil bandwagon without the faction being at least sizeable to begin with, like with the Covenant.


 
      
waswar
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:16 PM 

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And to be fair Zholtan, I wasn’t holding back on the previous page until a DM threatened to lock the thread lol.


 
      
Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:23 PM 

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These bitter feelings come from real problems on the server, my major gripe with evil over good RP goes back 4 years but its still in my mind. This creates an issue for all sides, where evil players feel discouraged from trying anymore and good players are limited to less conflict-driven RP. Conflict is what makes RP great, if it's always one-sided then what is the point. Evil characters are the underdogs and do have to play smarter than good characters, this has been said many times and that's kind of sad. Evil does have a bad rap for how it was played in the past, but so does good. Whenever PVP becomes apparent it's like players completely change their mindset, it's less about the RP and more about the PVP competitiveness rather than the RP.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:40 PM 

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I play almost exclusively evil at the moment.

A Shadow Dragon Disciple / PM who does not even try to hide it and openly hates all gods.

She gets a lot of shit. Nobody wants to trade with me. I can't leech off of any hunting groups.

But you know what?
That's to be expected if you play openly evil characters.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:41 PM 



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I actually agree with you, Draco. But, drama also discourages people from playing evil. I mean, look at this:
Impknightofireland wrote:
The first time i came to this server back in 2011, i was so called befriended by a Bantie player, and all they did was try to recruit me and bash Dm's. It is rare lately, but has been going on since i arrived. Please stop beating a dead horse.

If evil behaves like this, why would anyone want to play with them? And being toxic on the forums once or twice a year doesn't help.

Evil acted shitty in the past, good acted good in the past. We can bash our heads in and be toxic until the past becomes reverted, but I doubt that's happening any time soon.

If you actually have a solution, say it. But I haven't seen anything but dwelling in the past in this topic.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:52 PM 

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I'm posting here!

Good actually has a lot to deal with, too. Especially Kohlingen. I've taken up leading the Kohlingen faction, and I've found it to be rather hard, really! A lot of people make assumptions IC and OOC about the kind of people we are, and my PC has to inherit the good, bad, and ugly of past good PCs. And to top it off, no one wants to butt heads with my character. It makes it hard to have meaningful RP with evil PCs.

That said, I've been playing this PC - a gold dragon - for four years, and she hasn't been in PvP even once. She's come close, but never to that point. And those close calls were very few. There's a different kind of stigma on both sides of the fence, especially when it comes to interacting with other players. One thing I've been trying to do more is open up plots involving Kohl to other people on the isle. The one going on right now is about to blow up all over everyone else, if my PC has her way. So hopefully that will help with the Kohl-baggage I've been working on for a year or so now.

I have been having an incredible amount of fun the past couple months. With good and evil PCs I've encountered. I always hope someone will step up and throw a punch (so to speak), but there is some measure of limitation, as mentioned above. I believe it's something we can continue to work on, though.

Things are good, and the current DM Team is amazing. So is the Dev Team. 8)

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waswar
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 17:56 PM 

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Interesting enough, we’re both agreeing in stopping the “same old” as I’ll it.

In that we can at least come together and put forth our opinions on the future.

But let’s not pretend good acted good or evil was shitty. When Bhaanite players were illegally PVP’d, they were told by good players to “accept the consequences”, “your death is a big deal”. But when a good player initiated pvp by their own accord 12 times, and was killed each and every time, that was fine, they don’t have to face those consequences.

I mean there’s a reason the Bhaanite players had their opinions. Sometimes, criticizing otherwise “infallible” positions is justified.

Normally, I’m one for player driven solutions. But the evil ones went nowhere. When the balance of power was set up from previous DM’s destroying the evil base of power until good was utterly dominant, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request DM intervention, not to destroy good, but to prop up evil a bit, and make it better to play an evil character.


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 18:04 PM 



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waswar wrote:
Normally, I’m one for player driven solutions. But the evil ones went nowhere. When the balance of power was set up from previous DM’s destroying the evil base of power until good was utterly dominant, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request DM intervention, not to destroy good, but to prop up evil a bit, and make it better to play an evil character.
How? By boosting an evil faction? Which one? There's one currently, and those are more of a social group, as far as I've noticed anything

I do think it would be cool if faction bases needed close to no investment, and wouldn't require a request.


 
      
Guardian
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 18:06 PM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Evil acted shitty in the past, good acted good in the past.


This is rather gross generalisation and also quite ignorant one.

Before you put up anymore of that, search forums. I can in five minutes dig up quotes where good guys acted like trash and evil guys kept their cool.

Evil players are angry because they were wronged in the past. Period. And fun fact - I'm not included in that. I never had any big part in evil schemes. But I witnessed people giving shitton of time and work to schemes that fell flat because of all the wrong reasons, so don't blame them for being sceptics and keep reminding people about that.

I will repeat it. I've been on both sides. I had evil guys (Eddie), I had good guys (Daegan) - both sides have pros and cons. None of "bad guys" compains about being underdog, they complain about OOC stuff that happened to evil factions prior to certain big events. Some events that happened even before you, Robbi, or you, Freak, even joined Amia.

So cut them some slack.

That said, I agree we should stop dwelling in the past. The moment there's an evil initiative I'm joining in, instantly. Amia needs evil badly.

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Last edited by Guardian on Mon, Sep 10 2018, 18:09 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 18:08 PM 



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Sorry. My brain actually derped there.

That was a legit mistake on my part.

I actually meant evil acted shitty, and good acted shitty as well.


 
      
Guardian
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 18:11 PM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Sorry. My brain actually derped there.

That was a legit mistake on my part.

I actually meant evil acted shitty, and good acted shitty as well.


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ZoltanTheRed
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 19:07 PM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thanks for improving the server by being dismissive of criticism and passive aggressive toward people who might potentially return.


First:

robbi320 wrote:
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thanks for improving the server by being dismissive of criticism and passive aggressive toward people who might potentially return.

If the only criticism being delivered is 2 years old and is about people who don't even play, it's not valid, and should be dismissed. At least that's my opinion. *shrugs*


That.

And also: From what I've heard how absolutely terrible and bitchy the old community was, I'd really rather not see most of the older people return. No offense to you personally.



Edit: Actually, no. Enough has changed. There are evil people still playing and plenty of people seem to be open to evil PCs coming around. More so than before. However, just because people no longer play or their complaints refer to old grievances does not mean that what they're saying is not helpful to the context of Amia as it stands now because we can use it as a point of comparison to where we stand now. So I disagree with this reductive mentality.

As for evil PCs. If there are any people who want to try one, seek out some of the pre-existing evil PCs if you want to team up with some people. Sure, it's not actually providing any longevity, but maybe with enough coordination something could be done to make a lasting impact on the server as it is now. Lastly, I noticed that people are better about communicating their intent to DMs and their fellow faction members in some cases than they were before, and that's a good example to live by(something I could learn from, myself, honestly).

Re: Fort Summer. I largely take responsibility for its death because at that point I was its DM and I think I was an absolute dumpster fire for it because I basically tagged onto it and did almost nothing. A serious Lollipopsquirrel up, on my end. Sure, I was busy, but that was no excuse for me to leave the players there hanging with nothing to do.


 
      
Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 19:51 PM 

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Quote:
If we were to change this "good bias" (which is more of a neutral bias or a "keep the peace" bias/mentality) on the server, it would either have to be due to PC influence being applied, which has been stated is already something can can be done and is done OR a re-write of parts of the setting to put good and evil on a more neutral playing field, which would likely piss off even more people as it's already been pointed out that the majority of the server is leaning towards neutral or good PCs only and make them feel like the evil players didn't "earn" it, so it's unlikely to happen.


I just want to add I have read through all your comments, but this was the one I chose! This post is based on most of Gravemaskin's posts, and not just this one.

I don't think I agree with you Gravemaskin. You seem to want to put the emphasis on player effort, and while that is a big deal, you also seem to take DM's out of the equation. You point to your own accomplishments within Kholingen, but also don't mention that Kholingen was already an established powerbase and faction. I don't think adding onto a foundation is as hard as making the foundation in the first place, especially when you as an evil character have the odds stacked against you. Establishing the mageguard within Kholingen is a complitely different beast to establishing a new Tarkuul/Evil city.

From what I can tell, you also seem to suggest that since most people play good/neutral characters, most people prefer not having evil characters around. I don't think that's the right conclusion to make from why you think players play the characters they do. Maybe people don't want to play the instigators themselves, but prefer others to play the villains, for various reasons. In fact, in my earlier days on Lyelanna when she used to be a lot more troublesome, I had a player comment on how she appreciated Lyelanna's antagonism, but stated she could never play such a character herself. Point is, just because people play good, it doesn't mean they don't want others to play evil. After all playing a hero is pointless if you don't have a villain to fight, and a human opponent can be far more satisfying to fight than a mob is.

I also want to point out that not just evil factions have struggled to get hold because of a lack of DM attention. The last time someone attempted to revive the Shrine comes to mind. The Glade, perhaps? There were probably more that I am not aware of. You could say all this was a thing of the past, that things have changed now, but if it has been a constant problem it would be foolish to dismiss it. Also, how many times can you expect old players to come back to try something over and over before it's fair of them to leave?

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 20:20 PM 



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Ok, Zoltan, to what you said:

I can verify that, at least with the current PCs, good and evil interact often enough. I've talked quite a bit to both sides, and I've been on the evil side as well. I haven't heard of much PvP, much less some where either party was unhappy at the end, nor have any of the PvP encounters I've been in worked out in a poor way. So, maybe it's based on the people we're playing, but the concern of random PvP doesn't seem like a prevalent problem to me any more.

On DM attention: Of course, if 10 DMs were online, it would be nicer if there was an 11th online as well. But, the DM team seems to be quite different from a few years ago as well. Many of the DMs from then aren't DMs anymore, hell, many don't even play anymore. Aside from that, the DMs we do have, seem to, for a large part, be very active, both on the forums and in game. So, simply based off DM activity, I would say the server got a bit better as well. (Of course, this has to be taken with a grain of salt, since summer-ish seems to be the best time for everyone being able to play, but still)

On top, there's Demonreach, which, yeah, you could argue about it design-wise, you could argue about how useful it is, but there's at least three more areas (bloodmoon pass, Ultrinnan and the foggy wetlands) that also have the action-base-system-thing. Of course, there's nothing to stop people from coming in and burning the place down, especially not in the three amian areas, but even if you dislike that, there's a few areas that might be able to be "stolen off" without people noticing much. Of course, you can't have safety and accessibility at once. If you get there easily no problem and it's on the main trade route, it's just as easy for good to go there and burn the place down. I do think the current population has, at least to an extent, gotten behind the idea that evil might be more fun to fight against when evil can actually fight back. Roflstomping a level 2 PC isn't hard, nor fun.


 
      
Mrlala
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 22:57 PM 



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Skimming through..
I am only reading what went wrong with Evil factions here and there but almost nowhere about what went right or good... It is kind of depressing really, despite this thread's name.

Again I've only skimmed through most parts but I want to say; I have hope that people do not amputate their foot when they sprained it once or twice or fifty times. And since there are still evil factions, I am certain there are people working to make a place for evil and nefarious deeds. Let's try and help them :)


 
      
Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 23:42 PM 

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Mrlala wrote:
. . . I am certain there are people working to make a place for evil and nefarious deeds. Let's try and help them :)


That's the whole point of this thread, I've gotten a few interesting ideas myself. Like setting up an evil temple within the walls of Cordor now seems like a very possible option, if you play your cards right. You could also work towards bringing in the more criminal element which I know at least one PC has been doing. Instead of trying to set up these bases in the frozen wastes or wherever you think you'll be safe. Put it right in the heart of an already established RP hub, it will take more work and RP but that's half the fun, isn't it?

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 10 2018, 23:55 PM 

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The last Tarkuul run was fun as long as it lasted! We had great and engaged players, and cool DM events.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition


 
      
Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 11 2018, 1:17 AM 

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I've kind of skimmed through most of what was written here and thought I would -reiterate- my thoughts on the matter.

Evil players and groups have gotten a good amount of shit OOCly put in there direction from all sides. That -is- a basis fact as I have sat by on the sidelines and been privy to a lot of it as someone that actually mains evil PCs. So in that respect I can agree with you. I can also see why that would deter older players from returning to the place in which they were slighted.

However, if you never return In-game to the place you had troubles. How can you ever deem it, with an educated opinion, as to what the current state of the server is and/or the current mindset of those that slighted you?

For all you know e very single one of the issues you currently have could be 100% eradicated. If you never show up in-game and stay awhile, you'd never know.

As for the fact that evil doesn't exist on Amia:

Myself and a few others are actually heading an evil faction group within Demonreach and have made a decent impact on events on an IC level being as short-lived as we are. and it's a rather good size.

- myself
- Kiyona
- Gelmar
- Tamarra
- Frea
- Puresoul
- Pinkham
- Passionate Shadow
- Shadowfiend
- Bessindre
- Kamina

all have investments as an establishing 'evil faction' in Demonreach and things have gone pretty well all things considered. We also have several DMs taking interest in the group and working with us to promote our establishment. So there IS an evil presence on the server. As well as I am sure -we- ourselves are not the only one doing things behind the scenes and making an impact on the events that transpire in such a dynamic world.

As well as anyone that feels so inclined to make Evil based Players are by all means welcome to come to me IC as Arieme and establish themselves with us. So the opportunity is by all means there. It is just a matter of whether you are going to take it or not.

I will say the biggest issue I have with MOST people that play an evil PC mentality, and I believe this has a lot to do with the death of evil influence on Amia, is for some reason evil PCs tend to be under the general idea that their entire existence must center around PvP conflict. That's simply just a good way to kill your motivation and whatever you are trying to build.

My opinion is simply thus: It is an RP server, not a PvP server. Treat it as such. Instead of trying to do direct PvP conflict to promote yourself. Do indirect RP with DMs as well as players in order to garner long lasting effects. In that light I agree with Grave and I have said much the same several times over the years everytime this conversation has come up. As -this- exact conversation is what is -really- beating a dead horse.

As grave said influencing a city's economy and emotional status of its people/staff is certainly a way to have a long lasting impeding effect on a group and never have to resort to PvP at all. It can all simply be done by direct RP between a single person/group of people and a DM to effect them in such a grand scale. It's really not as difficult as you make it out to be.

A grand example I've used for years is playing an evil necromancer as a base concept. Instead of going off to fight a bunch of good PCs directly and get roflstomped, because obviously they are going to gang up on you, invade a cemetary or something with DM oversight and make an army of undead to go and raid a town or their farmland.

You never show your hand doing things this way so you don't risk a lot of direct permadeath scenarios and it promotes long lasting evil because good aligned characters have no idea who is causing it short of metagaming. Which I can attest as I have witnessed it, if you have evidence of metagaming like that DMs will deliver a swift kick in the nads to those doing it.

The biggest problem over the years in a gist in my honest opinion isn't really the setup for Evil on an OOC level but the mentality of the players themselves trying to accomplish it. If you go into it like a PvP server and not an RP server you will sadly meet the exact result you have accomplished.

That being said as I said in my first statement there have been slights in the past for Evil PCs. Just as there have been slights on the good side of things as well. I know as I have sat by and witnessed them. But, if you never get on the server and attempt to change things directly or even get on to see if things have changed at all as a base priority then how exactly is your opinion by any means educated?

Yes I understand that there has been several slights years ago. But, those are only valid to compare to what we are now. They are in no way relevant to anything precedent at the current time and should not really be treated as such.

_________________
Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 11 2018, 1:38 AM 

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The only way to not repeat old mistakes is to look forward, walking out of said mistake.

Ironically, my utter dislike for evil in fantasy kinda renders me a strange add on to this evil group. But Tetrik being Lawful kinda redeems my worst parts. I also have a streak of playing Drow Elves. I just often find evil be bit to much or over the top cheesy but I think the evil I seen on Amia of late is more organized and clever. I still miss the Drows of Ultrinnan, it was so much more than kidnapping douchebags from the subterran parts of Faerun.

In all honesty, my memory of the old days are super blurry but my biggest issues was with goody goody characters, played by people who really could not handle losing at all, saving people from Ultrinnan by teleporting in via the old teleport to party leader stuff and being metagaming and what not with their extremely powerbuilt to an abusive level tier. This was the start to the Amian Dark Age for me, when I was in the twillight zone, the deadzone, until I returned in 2016.

What I want to say with this? It goes back to the, you do not wish to see the old happen again or want evil and good not to be a ooc shit feast? Well move forward and think about making something new not sullied by the old.

I think both the old and the new is relevant, old player, still playing player or new player. All have a valid experience in this community since im sure most of us been playing NWN on Amia, has played on Amia or played on another server of NWN or is fresh off the boat and is not biased in anyway. All these opinions matter and this is how we can gain traction, getting old and new players back. And to prove that we can play evil and good and neutral all in one big bowl and get a more vibrant and organic flow of the roleplay on the server by playing all kind of characters.

I love Amia but I think it suffers from a syndrome of artifical organ that makes it keep breathing. The more varied factions and character and races we can get going from a growing playerbase, the more organice things will come. The flow and the balance of things is important. It do not even need to be good vs evil but character conflict and drama in character creates RP and situations. Budly and Fosco has a very odd conflict going, stemming from the old Aberration who was haunting Bendir Dale for a while. Both re on the same side, same community, same race and a bit similar in how they fight. But they cannot stand each others. "Evil" can take many shapes. to Fosco, Budly is probably a bigger evil than random Orc raider on the road who want to steal his gold becuase of how he portrays Budly.

So, lets keep moving forward and create the good kind of conflict, no matter what kind of drive it has.

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar
Budly : Angry Hin somehow Minister of Foreign Affairs


 
      
Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 11 2018, 1:54 AM 

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Also as an amusing thought towards this conversation I thought I would share this image of the current server activity:


https://gyazo.com/c726643247533d17bd261d37316f4b1b

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Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid
Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar


 
      
LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 11 2018, 2:18 AM 

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Playing a Evil character has always been a preference for me. I just find it rather boring, in general, to play the good guy. I guess I've always just found it difficult to have this moral compass IG or rather I enjoyed causing mischief.

I personally think playing a Evil character is a healthy thing for the server. We need evil. Otherwise we're all just Good or Neutral characters waiting on the DMs to either cause their own issues for the island (Which is super boring because you're 100% relying on a DM), or you do personal plots to make yourself a more rich / or powerful character.

But throughout my time on Amia I've learned playing a evil character is one of, if not the most difficult thing to do. On average (When playing HoJo), I learned for everyone encounter there is (1 Evil Guy) vs. 30 good guys. I've always seen that good characters get a little more attention. When I played HoJo I had a lot of Tormak support. I was basically solo for a general duration of HoJo which I believe Tormak can back up. I stayed in Tarkuul for the majority of my time, fought OOC barriers, and eventually reached some sort of goal. It was draining.

Evil on Amia is healthy as I've stated. But Amia in my eyes will never 100% support evil as they do good. I enjoyed my time playing a evil character and I like to think in some way my character had a impact on Amia. There have always been exceptions like the Gentlemen's Club. But we should go off the majority vs. the exceptions.

EDIT:

Thought I'd add a Pro / Con List for my personal experience with HoJo.

Pro: I got to do a lot of fun events, HoJo became The Speaker of Tarkuul, Headmaster of the Magisterium Mortis, The High Arcanist, met a lot of unique evil / neutral characters.

Con: Too many OOC Barriers, physically / mentally draining, isolated, boring.

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Genar_Detkasa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 11 2018, 3:04 AM 

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LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Con: ... isolated, boring....


Right? At least we had the weekly Djinn market session for trolling the good guys/not so despicably inclined.

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TheCortroy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 11 2018, 10:13 AM 

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I don't really play anymore, but I figured I'd post my thoughts on the subject since I considered myself mainly an "evil" player during my on Amia. There have always been a few defining factors that illustrate the pace of ill maligned characters in place of the server.

I've always felt Amia to be more of a relaxed environment, and that creates a certain type of pace for the server dynamic that just doesn't fit the concept of evil as well as it could. The server is naturally catered towards good as a whole, with multiple havens and authorities that support a lawful and "functional" society. Many of these places are naturally "good" or "neutral" aligned where the majority of the PCs populate, and from that, the server won't change from that setting.

Another thing that makes evil difficult to play on a server like Amia is the fact you have to take an active role. In the typical storybook setting there is usually an antagonist and a protagonist. If you play evil, more often then not your going to be playing the antagonist. That means it's your role to create the conflict, the tension, the drama, or whatever role you are personally trying to fulfill. Good characters typically have the role of the antagonist fulfilled by the DM in the means of events. If you play evil, more often then not, it's -your- job to create the events and do what you want to do, which usually requires effort and patience and cooperation from the staff, which is why it's hard to be successful.

Drama is a very easy thing to become discouraged from Amia, and evil is a certain center of it. If it's handled properly, it can be a wonderful thing that can add tension and some of the most enjoyable and memorable moments you'll ever encounter on Amia, for yourself and the players around you. If it isn't handled right however, it's very easy for certain players to become offended on a OOC level, and it's important to try to distinguish yourself apart from your character in a OOC sense to avoid conflicts that shouldn't happen when people are just trying to have fun. This just naturally ostracizes and discourages everyone, but especially the evil player, from attempting whatever they want to do. It's a problem I've personally experienced - from taking things too personal, to offending other players. It's hard to keep everyone happy, while trying to be bad, though certainly possible.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 12 2018, 7:38 AM 

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Quote:
I wonder why they’re not active in Fort Summer anymore.


Because it turns out when you wait a RL year and a half for an incredibly simple update that breaks more than it fixes, and you get told that fixing the bugs they created counts against you in terms of getting any help from the Devs or DMs, you immediately lose all interest in doing anything with the server anymore. Not to mention there wasn't single DM that was willing to help us, because they all played good aligned PCs and didn't want a conflict of interest, because we were the only active evil faction on the server at the time, and therefore the only thing worth fighting for good guys. The remaining 2 DMs who was willing to help us became unable to do so due to RL work and schedule conflicts, and we both thanked and appreciated their time, and the time they spent trying to work with us despite the time differences.

That's the polite version, and it leaves out some stuff that sort of gets into the subjective and private involved info of people.

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Dunecat
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 12 2018, 20:24 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
fort summer took over the entire frozenfar + some

:-(

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Manicheaens please go away.


 
      
Alkor
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 17 2018, 4:21 AM 

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I just wanted to chime in, among the posts there were a few from the older players/former staff where it's actually admitted outright that players in the past playing evil were absolutely wronged, no debate, no sweeping under the rug, outright admitted, wronged.

Thank you.

The first step to solving this, the same topic which has been talked about for nearly a decade in real life time now, is admitting it's been done wrong. There is a wrong, players left over it en mass. This server went from cap'd out max, couldn't log in on a Friday night for 20mins+, it's 'too' full??? add new server???, to well.. that's self-evident. (but improving!)

The typical narrative is:

"There's a crime here, an injustice, it's being/was done wrong."

Option A: Admit there was a wrong, identify what it was specifically, and how specifically the parties might agree to work together so that that wrong doesn't occur again. New rules created, fair support given, commitment to doing things differently, fairly.

Option B: Pretend it doesn't exist and sweep it under the rug, particularly when it benefits your side IG and secures ultimate everlasting victory vs evil. Bonus points if you can attack the person's ooc character instead of the argument at hand and somehow lock the thread so that nothing is actually done. (victory? players log)

So now that, in some cases eight years later, we have finally settled that players were absolutely wronged, option A, and the current administration can be sorry that that had happened to them, but recognize the vast majority of the team now did not do that to them (or any of them?). And more importantly, recognizes this and says "As the DM Team now we will not do this to you again." "We have learned from the past DM failures." As that is ultimately what these older players are driving at, "has anything been learned? Is anything different now?"

Next step, now that we've looked at the past, acknowledged there was/is an actual problem we can go about looking to solve it. DM's have posted here their recent efforts, said "yep, we're supporting this now, and it's starting to work, come join us." That's positive and largely wasn't there before.

The banites dream was creating an evil bastion, in the open, but it was destroyed. Evil has been forced to scurry about in the corners of the module, or pretend to be neutral, for years. It's nice to hear they are now starting something up in an evil-esk pirate town. Chaotic primordial soup that can be made into something more perhaps.

If the vast majority of DM's of the past did not want to touch (or help) evil factions because they played characters on the 'other team' and so it was a conflict of interest. That tells me to hire up more DM's who play evil toons and can be there for their smevil groups so they actually have support. If that indeed is the basis of where support comes from. Beyond that, on development concern, I think all requests should be treated fairly in an alignment-blind manner. That requests not be limited to just one dm pushing it through the proper channels but a larger list of 'events and faction building things that we have approved to get done with module changes' that any developer or contributor can get to work on.
I would actually also suggest preference to people who have been waiting the longest. (A real life year is redic)

Now if there is a shortage of people to actually -do- this work, Let the Players Know!, and also add in if they'd like to volunteer to help with it directly, send them applications to be contributors too and do the actual tool-set work. A few of them might be up to the task and also pass the server standards for whatever you'd like to call "mini-developers". In this manner players of evil characters, can volunteer to get the work done themselves and not have to wait a literal year + for anything to get actually done. *as long as that work/project was approved by a dm/the team prior.

I'd also recommend more systems at every turn that give players more power to affect the game world all on their own without needing a DM present to do it.


Idea 1
Idea/Example: Cordor/settlement sets up an actual mechanical citizen system, players apply to or do quests to obtain citizenship, PC1 is accused of a crime by PC2, PC2 goes to the NPC guard captain to report the crime. If PC1 is spotted in town by guards on-sight, they say he's under arrest and can come peacefully or hostile and attack, if successful, suspect is apprehended. PC1 is teleported to jail near death and awaits trial. Scripts fire to find all Cordor PC citizens who mechanically are citizens, and asks if they want to participate in trial of PC1. (a certain number are randomly selected to fill the jury). PC2, the prosecutor brings the charges. If it's a more tyrannical government, then the settlement leader would be able to bring the case, and hear the case, and bring verdict themselves when both parties are online.

If the citizens agree to be in the trial, they are moved after a timer to the court room to vote/come to a verdict on the trial after hearing both sides. The Jury with a unanimous verdict, can vote to place a mechanical exile or fine on PC1 for their 'crime'.


That system does not have to be implemented, it is merely an example of something where players would start deciding things that happen in the game world themselves. In an evil town they'd use evil laws to decide the outcomes. (Charging a paladin for slaying undead in Tarkuul could consist of a crime due to loss of property and the paladin fined for the offense and be forced to pay the necromancer reparations or be exiled, etc.)

Idea 2
Another idea is a settlement storehouse, where players can store up materials from IG actions then request settlement changes based on what they gathered, or coin put upfront for it, etc. There were guidelines in the past for what was needed to build <xyz>, the dm team would review the building requests.

Any system that gives players more power to affect the game world all on their own without needing a DM present to do it, helps, and in the building example everything is automated a dm is only needed after the work is already done. (or if they choose, check off the goals one at a time to represent progress).

That's where I'd like the topic themes to head toward:

Player: "Has anything changed? We were wronged in the past."
DM: "Yes, it has changed, yes you were wronged, here's what we're doing differently." "Can I also ask for you specifically, what you would like to see done? We're asking all the players for more ideas to make it even better." (being specific and actionable) Rule changes? Content added? What works? What doesn't?

...
...
convo here...
...
...
Player: "Will I get support this time?"
DM: "Yes, log in. Welcome to a New Amia. Looking forward to building it with you."

The aim in a great module/game is being able to create varied areas/zones where players can play in a desirable fashion and accommodate more than one style of play, Farmville might exist with social parties in one sector, while hardcore pvp tyrannical rule can exist in another, the aim is to never leave a player with no options but the log-out one. Some cities might be more or less bastions, but that doesn't mean players can't fight over outposts/castles). Some players like challenges, so you give them hard dungeons with hard bosses. Some players want even harder ones, so you 'also' make insane dungeons with insane bosses, players then choose what they want to do. It's pretty easy to get to 30, so I thought by ratio there should be more for lvl30's to do. Politics is another avenue if multiple factions want to vie for power within a larger city (have a mechanical way to track their support levels?). Factions are built and destroyed, but players should always feel they can rebuild, they can recreate it even better than before.

Make it so that "log out" isn't the best/most appealing option.

_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2018, 23:28 PM 

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ZoltanTheRed wrote:
My advice for anyone: play characters, not alignments.


I know this is a thread necro but this. My character sheet for Gerald only says NE because that's where he's at. I request alignment changes when I feel they're necessary. Consider your motivations for what you're doing and your play becomes more interesting, good or evil.

Gerald for example. He is a power hungry wizard trying to establish his vision of a Utopian magocracy under his rule. To get anywhere near his goals, horrible things will have to be done but he genuinely thinks that what he's doing will be justified if he successfully creates a new Netherese Empire based on the principles he is trying to implement. It is somewhat easier to justify your evil if your character is religious, but I think it is important to think to yourself: "Why does my character worship this god? Why does my banite want to establish the tryannical world domination of bane? Why does my cyricist want to inflict betrayal and madness on Toril? Why does my tormite want to lead a crusade to stamp out the people who do these things?

These are the things that make playing your characters more fun. The why of it. The motivations, not the alignment. Alignment is a paper you fill out after the fact, and motivations are the things that generally lead to these alignments. This might sound harder for divine characters but I think an important way to look at it is this - your character worships his god for a reason. You don't embody holy or unholy virtues for no reason, and you identify with your god in some fashion. Why? I think that creates a more fun to play and role play character.

But sometimes that fills itself in as you RP and make up a background as well.

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Gerald Edmund
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DC taxation is theft!


 
      
freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Tue, Nov 20 2018, 23:56 PM 

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I want to second what Gerald said so hard and I am necro'ing this thread so more people see it.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 10 2019, 3:23 AM 

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From experience, roleplaying good or neutral characters is more relatable for most people: most people follow laws, have a sense of right and wrong and a sense of community. On the flip side, few people understand what it means to be evil, which is why few people can actually (or want to) role play evil. Even fewer do it well.

To make matters worse, D&D is a game of absolutes based off the alignment system. Despite this, evil is still subjective as there are different types of evil. Often evil beings don't consider themselves as such: their actions are necessary, or are justified as normal in their minds.

I myself find it very difficult to role play evil. I found it much easier to DM evil then to role play evil.

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Mairacle_Ninja wrote:
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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 18 2019, 3:17 AM 

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Jes wrote:
I'm posting here!

Good actually has a lot to deal with, too. Especially Kohlingen. I've taken up leading the Kohlingen faction, and I've found it to be rather hard, really! A lot of people make assumptions IC and OOC about the kind of people we are, and my PC has to inherit the good, bad, and ugly of past good PCs. And to top it off, no one wants to butt heads with my character. It makes it hard to have meaningful RP with evil PCs.

That said, I've been playing this PC - a gold dragon - for four years, and she hasn't been in PvP even once. She's come close, but never to that point. And those close calls were very few. There's a different kind of stigma on both sides of the fence, especially when it comes to interacting with other players. One thing I've been trying to do more is open up plots involving Kohl to other people on the isle. The one going on right now is about to blow up all over everyone else, if my PC has her way. So hopefully that will help with the Kohl-baggage I've been working on for a year or so now.

I have been having an incredible amount of fun the past couple months. With good and evil PCs I've encountered. I always hope someone will step up and throw a punch (so to speak), but there is some measure of limitation, as mentioned above. I believe it's something we can continue to work on, though.

Things are good, and the current DM Team is amazing. So is the Dev Team. 8)


One point here is that in the Fort we almost never dealt with Kohl at all, policy was at the time since we were so far away from the island it wasn't Kohl's problem unless we did more amia island stuff, and really nobody ever caught our mainland stuff so Kohl just didn't get involved.

Also to the people talking about our updates, we DID get them, but it was well over a year after they were submitted and approved by dev's and DM's, with the most 'recent' item being a full nine months, that being a door. I don't want to sound like im whining here but I don't want people to think we quit because we didn't get updates. It was a combo of things there's no need to go into again. But it wasn't "I didn't get my updates im leaving and bitter."

_________________
ANT ALARM

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ANT ALARM

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First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 18 2019, 3:51 AM 

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Commie wrote:
Jes wrote:
I'm posting here!

Good actually has a lot to deal with, too. Especially Kohlingen. I've taken up leading the Kohlingen faction, and I've found it to be rather hard, really! A lot of people make assumptions IC and OOC about the kind of people we are, and my PC has to inherit the good, bad, and ugly of past good PCs. And to top it off, no one wants to butt heads with my character. It makes it hard to have meaningful RP with evil PCs.

That said, I've been playing this PC - a gold dragon - for four years, and she hasn't been in PvP even once. She's come close, but never to that point. And those close calls were very few. There's a different kind of stigma on both sides of the fence, especially when it comes to interacting with other players. One thing I've been trying to do more is open up plots involving Kohl to other people on the isle. The one going on right now is about to blow up all over everyone else, if my PC has her way. So hopefully that will help with the Kohl-baggage I've been working on for a year or so now.

I have been having an incredible amount of fun the past couple months. With good and evil PCs I've encountered. I always hope someone will step up and throw a punch (so to speak), but there is some measure of limitation, as mentioned above. I believe it's something we can continue to work on, though.

Things are good, and the current DM Team is amazing. So is the Dev Team. 8)


One point here is that in the Fort we almost never dealt with Kohl at all, policy was at the time since we were so far away from the island it wasn't Kohl's problem unless we did more amia island stuff, and really nobody ever caught our mainland stuff so Kohl just didn't get involved.

Also to the people talking about our updates, we DID get them, but it was well over a year after they were submitted and approved by dev's and DM's, with the most 'recent' item being a full nine months, that being a door. I don't want to sound like im whining here but I don't want people to think we quit because we didn't get updates. It was a combo of things there's no need to go into again. But it wasn't "I didn't get my updates im leaving and bitter."


Don't worry about it, I think most people are just sad to see you all go.

On Arelith or?

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar
Budly : Angry Hin somehow Minister of Foreign Affairs


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 18 2019, 5:13 AM 

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Nowhere. It's ok though. I didn't want to derail this thread which I now see was necro'd I just was told someone said we all quit because we didn't get an update and I wanted to clarify it wasn't true.

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ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 19 2019, 19:38 PM 

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Don't worry about it, the information is welcomed!

_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar
Budly : Angry Hin somehow Minister of Foreign Affairs


 
      
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