AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Login: bagoffelt (or maybe on the login fiddlesticks)
Concept: Dragon Disciple 15, Pale Master 10, Bard 5
Deity: Kossuth, he who forges all in fire to make them more powerful
Bard, because prerequisites
Pale Master for power in immunities, purging the flesh to gain a more powerful body
Iron Dragon Disciple, for Neutral Alignment

Iron Dragon Personality from Forgotten Realms Wiki https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_dragon

Introduce Ferrus, Iron Dragonkin, son of a human and iron dragonkin. At an early age, he dedicated himself to Kossuth, seeking to purify himself, purging even his flesh of frailties by following the path of the pale master. He seeks to make himself more powerful by performing the rituals that will allow his draconic blood to take hold.

He is not evil. He seeks knowledge, especially knowledge that will make him stronger. He doesn't seek world dominance, but to master himself, making himself a more effective fighter. He chooses to live in Amia because there is a handy volcano, and there are sources of iron.

Since this is a non-standard dragon, Jes said she knew how to make the wing color right - by making it go with the tattoo colors. I would probably go with the color 57, but might adjust that if I don't think it looks quite right. (This is from a discussion we had in Discord.) I would request the breath weapon of electricity, since that is what the iron dragon had after Spellplague (and I am guessing this is since then). (see above iron dragon reference)

I mostly want to play a non-evil, integrated being and want to see how the build concept works within the role play limitations. I want to be non-evil, and have to be non-lawful. I think the Neutral Iron Dragon template works for this. I think I can handle a racial dislike of red dragons/dragonkin.

Comments? Suggestions? This is not built at this time. (I am tired of messing up my vault with misfires.)

Bag of Felt wrote:

I would request the breath weapon of electricity, since that is what the iron dragon had after Spellplague (and I am guessing this is since then). (see above iron dragon reference)

Amia is an eternally pre-Spellplague setting, their pre-Spellplague breath weapon was a cone of "super-heated sparks" which is half fire and half electricity damage. It's also important to note that their racial immunity is to fire and that in the dragon magazine issue where they appear they are a "fire" dragon.

Bag of Felt wrote:

I mostly want to play a non-evil, integrated being and want to see how the build concept works within the role play limitations. I want to be non-evil, and have to be non-lawful. I think the Neutral Iron Dragon template works for this.

In the wiki source you provided it states that iron dragons are "always lawful neutral" in 3rd edition (and the magazine source above), while true neutral is within one step of that alignment I think you will have a very hard time selling the DMs on a half-dragon concept that is not their sire's alignment.

Bag of Felt wrote:

Since this is a non-standard dragon, Jes said she knew how to make the wing color right - by making it go with the tattoo colors. I would probably go with the color 57, but might adjust that if I don't think it looks quite right.

It looks pretty good with 57 and the PLT dragon wings (and tail) Jes suggested.

Finally, you noted that he is not evil and that you want to play a non-evil character a couple of times. I think you should consider how important palemaster is to your current concept, as although NWN allows you to make a palemaster of any non-good alignment, the general perception of the class is that it is the evilest of evils. Fighter is your best alternative given its strong mechanical cohesion with dragon disciple (18/2/10!) and the fact that in your concept you mention that he wants to make himself a more effective fighter.

I hope what I pointed out helps you iron out the character a little more before you request it.

About electrical breathe weapon - didn't know that we are pre-spellplague, and have no problems with being fire.

About alignment - yes, I am looking at the 4th edition iron dragon. I looked around at other dragons for a neutral alignment, but I don't see a PM with pink or purple wings (Prismatic). An alternative might be the Crystal dragon, which I would use the white dragon as a base, for both the breath weapon and the wing color. Putting in the description that he is Crystal instead of White might help with a lot of the RP problems.

I would really rather not play evil. One concept I abandoned entirely because I just don't have the stomach to play like that, and another I rarely play as well. The only one that I really intend to play as evil now, I have intent to play in the UD (although at the early stages it is pretty much impossible to play down there like that), and so not really mix with those of other alignments. This is a personal preference, since I the player rather like getting along with people, and really hate when people tell me (in TELLS, not RP, which would be more palatable) that I play my character wrong when there is, from their perspective, a reason THEY think I should play my character a certain way.

About Pale Masters - while they aren't good, they don't HAVE to be evil, as is evidenced with the elven Baelnorn. Ferrus isn't an elf (at least I haven't made him one yet), and I already had a post (a long time ago now) asking about making something like that, which the DMs would rather I didn't, since they have one already as a DM character, and they are incredibly rare, and they don't really travel, but are guardians in a certain place. Ferrus wouldn't be a casting necromancer - he wouldn't have the spell levels, nor the spells to do so. I can give you the spell list of what he would have at level 30, and at no time would he be casting necromatic otherwise. He is just looking to make his body stronger. He is willing to walk that path BECAUSE Iron dragons seek power - another good reason to go with Iron.

Spell List at Level 30
0 All
1 Mage Armor PfA Identify Expeditious Retreat
2 Invisibility See invisibility Ultravision

Yes, PM is important to the build, it is part of the concept I want to try. I would like to try it within reasonableness of role play in which I feel comfortable. Because of the time zone I am in, I either play alone (often) or with a very set few players who I know will not be bothered about this at all. I think the character would be interesting to interact with, and an opportunity for some classes/characters to show their prejudices, and then have to re-evaluate them in the face of someone who isn't what they expected. Isn't that what we all do in day to day life anyway?

I can still remember as a young girl, being frightened by cat-calling, long-haired biker types, never wanting to be around such crude people, avoiding them as much as possible. Then I joined the SCA, and found out that many of those scoundrelly-looking people were actually gentlemen...... Not perfect, but I definitely had to re-evaluate my prejudices.

Thanks for the mock up of the wings. I probably would start with more human looking skin, but you have yet expanded my mind here, too. I was hoping there was more of a metalic sheen to the color on the wings though. Suggestions there?

I personally think you're trying to cram so much in to one character. A neutral half-Iron Dragon Palemaster is a bit out there.

We're normally very strict on Half-Dragons alignments being as close to that of a their relatives as much as possible. There may be some wriggle room to go TN after than LN, but I think you'd struggle to get much approval whilst also asking for PM on top of this.

Maybe consider how crucial PM is to the concept, or how crucial being an Iron Dragon is to the concept.

Mostly the reason for going with iron is that I don't want to deal with people reacting so negatively.

I could go with red dragon and pm and play it as neutral because that would make me more comfortable, but I don't think people would be happy with my role play. And would send me tells to the effect, which bugs me no end. I am trying to avoid all this by putting together a concept that could work within the role play parameters that people work with.

Bag of Felt wrote:

About Pale Masters - while they aren't good, they don't HAVE to be evil, as is evidenced with the elven Baelnorn.

Baelnorns and (arch)liches are not the same thing as pale masters. A pale master is not an undead, they're arcane spellcasters that seek greater power over undead, mastery of the deathless arts, and have an undead prosthetic in place of an arm. That said, you're right they don't have to be evil, as I stated before they only have to be non-good, but my advice to you would be to re-evaluate how important pale master is to your concept, as it will make requesting this character and playing it an uphill battle.

Bag of Felt wrote:

Ferrus wouldn't be a casting necromancer - he wouldn't have the spell levels, nor the spells to do so. I can give you the spell list of what he would have at level 30, and at no time would he be casting necromatic otherwise. He is just looking to make his body stronger.

You can't decouple pale master from necromancy. Pale masters get animate dead, summon undead, and summon greater undead as spell-like abilities, so the character will have the spells, in addition to their undead arm.

Bag of Felt wrote:

I was hoping there was more of a metalic sheen to the color on the wings though. Suggestions there?

That is one of the metallic tattoo colors, there is a slight metallic sheen when viewed in-game, however given the darkness of color 57 and the "dark" texture of the wing it's pretty subdued. I also tried color 56 and the sheen is more noticeable and the color still dark enough to be interpreted as iron instead of steel. Just disregard the skin color of the model it can be changed independently of the wings.

OOooooo, like that wing color! 56.....

And he would never summon the undead or use the necro stuff that comes with it - they wouldn't be powerful enough anyway. He is mostly working on his own body, making it as best he can.

I have thought that lich was about as far down the necromatic path as one could get.

Bag of Felt wrote:

Mostly the reason for going with iron is that I don't want to deal with people reacting so negatively.

I could go with red dragon and pm and play it as neutral because that would make me more comfortable, but I don't think people would be happy with my role play. And would send me tells to the effect, which bugs me no end. I am trying to avoid all this by putting together a concept that could work within the role play parameters that people work with.

Just for the record... You wouldn't be able to go CN red dragon in this case because it has 15 DD levels, and that would require you to be CE or NE, per this rule.

But I am a little concerned about the first part of your post here. You don't want to deal with people reacting so negatively, but I guarantee you they won't be reacting nicely to ANY pale master, whether you're also an evil dragon type or not. A lot of people IC don't like pale masters, either. They get a huge negative association, whether they're neutral or not. If you're really worried about negative reactions IC, then really consider if you want to go PM. I don't want you to go through all the work of requesting/working on this character, only to find that there are a lot of characters who don't like PMs, either, and you have to deal with IC fallout for being a PM anyway.

I guess my main concern is that the people who would care about your character being an evil dragon type are likely to also feel the same way about Pale Masters.

Well, technically, necromancy isn't evil. It's just as evil as evocation. You can use a fireball, or any worse spell to kill an orphanage. The usage, and the spells used in particular, are what makes it evil. I mean, paladins get a necromancy spell. It's only death ward, but still necromancy. But there are evil necromancy spells. Using these is always evil.

Undead, though, are a slightly different thing. Creating an undead is (almost?) always evil. Making yourself an undead, if I remember correctly is... questionable.
Pale Masters, technically, don't do the latter. The grafting doesn't make them undead, no matter how far they go. I mean, I bet there's some point where the Ship of Theseus Paradox might come into play, but generally, you don't become undead through Palemastery. However, most Pale Masters do create Undead. You could be the exception, in which case you could never use those PM abilities, but many people will still se "Pale Master", and be unfriendly.

It's something you could deal with, but I'm not sure how much fun it'll be. I know I wouldn't have fun, because there's no objective reason for the hostility, but I'm not going to tell you what you have to do.
It's a viable concept, but much like a goodly goblin, you're probably going to have a rather harsh uphill battle for a while.

There are no "good guns". There are no "bad guns". Any gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a decent person is no threat to anybody — except bad people.

-Charlton Heston

That aside, if you want to paint a target on your chest, you could not pick a better mutant concept. Evil dragon-kin pale master equals putting on a clown mask and go to a bank with air-soft gun in your hand (air soft because dd/pm build sucks on every single aspect). You "will" get shot. Even if you'd get Iron DD approved for neutral alignment, it's "still" black wings and people will hardly stop to ask "Wait wait, mr. Bonesforlefthand with black wings, are you an Iron disciple or a black one?"

Jes said it right - if you want to avoid people attention, you really, REALLY picked a bad way to do that.

I mostly focus on the draconic part, because that will be most visible. You only see that it is really a PM when you can actually see the arm graft. If you tend to always stay in armor (which most of my characters do anyway), you never see what the arm looks like.

The wings, on the other hand, can't be avoided.

Err... isn't PM arm graft supposed to be visible same as DD wings? I vaguely remember a talk about it.

And yeah, about the rest of it. It seems a shame that a build can't be explored in and of itself because of alignment limitations.

Does the arm graft visual bypass the armor graphics? Armored up, you wouldn't see it.

Well there are ways that removes your wing visuals as well, but you are not supposed to do that.

I am not sure about the PM arm, but I "think" you should not be allowed to conceal that. But again - I remember a talk about it vaguely, so it may be not true.

Pretty sure PMs are allowed to cloak it. Wings just are a lot harder to conceal. I mean, they're these huge flaps on your back, as opposed to an arm that, from a distance, with a long sleeve and a glove, might looks somewhat normal.

This is what I was able to find on this topic. It was posted by a DM years ago, but should probably get a current DM to verify this is the case, just to be sure. I'm personally not sure.

[Lore] Are there any other changes to the physique of a Palemaster except the arm graft?

Yes. The path of a Palemaster consists of the rituals which gradually push Palemaster closer and closer to an undead. With his first ritual (Bone Skin) the hue of his skin may take a sickly green, pale, or bleached bone color. Regardless of the exact tone it will not appear to be a normal skin.

With the second ritual a Palemaster will, through necromancy, replace his eye with one capable of seeing in mundane darkness. This will result in his face becoming ghastly, or very creepy at least, as the eye is grafted.

As the Palemaster proceeds on his path, the stench of rot or embalming fluid might follow him, a swarm of flies might be attracted, his voice could become eerie, the hair might go pale or start falling off, etc. A Palemaster could even have a creepy aura about him, akin to that of the Blackguard, explained by the ungodly amounts of negative energy he has been exposed to. The animals could shun a Palemaster, and the children might start crying for no apparent reason. Also a Palemaster’s reproductive organs are likely to become barren.

One way or another, even an uneducated man could with certainty tell a difference between a Palemaster and a non-Palemaster.

[Lore] Is it possible for a Palemaster to hide that he is a Palemaster?

With sufficient clothing, a lot of makeup, wigs, a strong parfume, etc – yes it is possible. At the first glance a Palemaster may appear to be a (somewhat) regular member of the society, perhaps slightly odd, ugly, or creepy. But should one become suspicious, the subterfuge will not last for long. That being said, one does not become a Palemaster to blend in with the society. A Palemaster is fully aware of the changes he is facing, as well as the consequences, and performs them willingly. Palemastery cannot be forced, or be the result of an accident!

Sorry for the double-post. Just thought I'd point this out, too. It's been mentioned that it may be unfair that pale masters get a bad rep, but honestly... With descriptions like these (taken from Libris Mortis, page 47), anyone who dislikes Undead (paladins, rangers, druids, basically any good-aligned person) is going to hate pale masters. Just because they don't have to be evil, doesn't mean that what they do isn't horribly evil... in the eyes of a lot of people, if not mechanically.

I mean, that's just what I understand of the class. I could be off base, but that's how it reads to me.

Don't forget to mention that the Libris Mortis states that at 10th level a pale master's body becomes "partly mummified", immunity to critical hits comes at a price and it isn't pretty!

That is true! And the combination of Deathless Mastery and Dragon Apotheosis, to me, would make for a gruesome sight. Maybe not to the point of looking like dracolich wings, but I do recall one DD/PM who was basically scales hanging off the bones, looking (and smelling) like a rotting husk of dragony filth.

It was cool, but gross. I'm not saying you'd have to do it that way, but combining those two very powerful RP features... I really don't think it's going to be so easy to conceal that you're a pale master, too. The pale master class is highly involved, and has a ton of lore and RP that goes into it, just as the DD does. I don't see how focusing just on the DD side of it and having the bone arm be the only telling feature is going to work out.

I mean, you can RP it however you want to. I guess I'm just trying to help you see how the negative altercations you can get with DD will just as easily happen with PM. PM is not a strictly evil class, but many view it as evil anyway. It shouldn't be PM-lite if you take the full 10 levels to get Deathless Mastery, either. Your character should be super gross by that point. xD

Well, again, I'd say there's different ways the PM has been done, and many have had different takes on it. There's been the "typical CE", a rotting, smelly, zombi-fied monster. There's the "scholar", mostly mummified, and there's a lot of different takes you could go with. It all depends how you see the class, and how well you can convince the DMs that your idea is cool enough to bend the "you're a smelly, rotting pile of filth" stereotype. A bone arm likely wouldn't smell, and wouldn't attract flies. There's nothing -inherently- undead-y about the tough as bone. Bone skin, like the name suggests, could have you, more or less literally, turn your skin to bone. What I'm suggesting would have you be a lot more like a skeleton than a zombie. I could imagine with a cowl and long sleeves, could could attempt to mimic life decently well, even easier with a helmet. Make sure any infections you might get are treated properly, use clean materials, clean up before and after the rituals... All that. Make your character thoroughly germophobic, for all I care.
If you come along, and that character gets infections and is all smelly, I'll be very surprised. And unless he's obviously showing skin, (which by the way, only Kohlingen requires, law-wise) you should be able to hide your PM-ness fairly well. Obviously, you're the strange guy dressed up as Skulduggery Pleasant, but still.
Hell, magic can even go a long way. Only last year, I watched a PM ritual done completely with magic, no need for a blade, or anything. If that infects, I'd be very surprised as well.

Then, there's somewhat of the opposite, a concept I pursued for a while, and one a few other people have done far better than I even could describe here. You know how the "Rituals of Phalemastery" (as furthered by many of the PMs of Tarkuul) make you cut symbols for stone bones in your skin? Have those be infected. The arm? Use a Zombie graft. (requires a request, but can be done, both on amia, and based on the sourcebooks) Have him be filthy, flies dogging his every step, maggots burrowing through his skin, that whole jazz.
Hiding that sort of PM will be pretty tough. The best perfume will either have him reeking of rose, or not cover up his aroma. The arm might look wrong, even with a padded sleeve, or be of a strange length, making covering it up really difficult. There is so much you can homebrew with the PM class, every PM can be massively unique, and can add as much, or as little flavor to the class as they want to.

The definition "partly mummified" is really strange. Eqyptian mummies, with their organs removed, salted and dried aren't the only type of mummies around, and things like bog bodies are close enough to be considered mummies as well. The difficulty comes in imagining a way to do that to a live body, which is why the level 10 crit immunity is more of a wishy-washy "imbuing with negative energy- and bam, you're crit immune", as opposed to a surgical procedure.

That said, this whole speech is as much canon as the Q&A Jes posted. Every bit of PM lore, aside from the tiny snippets found in the source books, is homebrew, and invented by players. Even the bit that -are- listed in the books is somewhat up for debate, because every character is different. On amia, only very few PMs will ever head a strike force of undead, yet the source books detail it, for example. The Q&A Jes is referencing, was asked by fellow players, and because it was abandoned, Dead went ahead and filled out the answers for the type of PM he imagined/homebrewed. His way isn't -the way-, though, but one of many valid ways of portraying a PM.

Of course, Jes isn't completely wrong.

You'll face a lot of stigma, and depending on the way you RP it, that stigma may, or may not be completely and fully deserved. You'll never be allowed to set in cities, save Cordor, and it's pretty much only a matter of time before somebody gets the idea that you don't just stop at assimilating undead, but instead secretly summon them as well.
And besides, I personally feel both (R)DD and PM on their own have so much RP you could flesh out with, that going both will always leave you as a srange abomination- something every PM/DD I've seen has landed at. They end up being some weird amalgamation of undead, dragon, and a bit of humanity left in there, that they always seem a bit... off.

That said, I don't think it's an impossible thing to do. Just think of it as the neutral red DD. He might not be evil, but -everyone- will assume he is. Even if he proves it, it likely will be seen far more as an attempt to infiltrate the goodies, instead of being seen as a genuine neutrality.

Ah, that's what it was from! I didn't find the Dead version, just the one a DM had posted elsewhere, probably from that. Good to know!

Strange... I don't get to see the one the DM re-posted. Only ones I get to see, even when using the search function, are from dead...

Here's the FAQ/Q&A, might be interesting for a PM.

I was able to find the post in GD. Since you forgot to add the link. xD

Here you go, guys!

Wow. I'm dumb. I even copied the link for it. Just forgot to press Ctrl V literally -anywhere- in my post.

If anyone finds a slice of toast, please remember to tell it that it is smarter than me.

It’s still pretty much our stance, for reference. You can conseal a PM graft (depending where they are) but Disciple/Half-Dragon wings are not like a fold down convertible roof and can’t be consealed within armour or under a cloak, same goes for tails (though this is hard coded to not being hidden)

Just as a sidenote:

I have a PM/DD. She's basically un-killable but thats that's pretty much it.

I RP her as having managed to still look not like a rotting corpse, plastic surgery is great, but if you mummify your insides? yeah people will know something is wrong with you.

Unnaturally pale, maybe even Gray skin, the graft, cold to the touch....

Sure you can be "Sexy". But at the very best its a very uncanny kind of sexy. Looking at someone like that would feel wrong.

Just telling you that you dont need to be a rotting corpse to be a PM

As a sidenote, you can't use flesh arm models (like the half sleeves or bicep ring) to 'conceal' a Palemaster graft, it has to be covered properly. Also using the tattoo artists to change your bone arm into a flesh arm is a no-go.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

As a sidenote, you can't use flesh arm models (like the half sleeves or bicep ring) to 'conceal' a Palemaster graft, it has to be covered properly. Also using the tattoo artists to change your bone arm into a flesh arm is a no-go.

Yes I should have mentioned that!

You can cover it up with Clothes or armor, but not just slap a Armor showing Skin over it!

This thread sparkled a question.. sorry if I'm highjacking your post, but maybe it'll give you an idea

I wonder - could a human palemaster graft skeletal dragon wings and have it pass it as RDD levels?

Undead grafts are a completely different thing from dragon grafts. Now, you can have skeletal wings, but they'd be an undead graft. It doesn't change much, in the long run, but it's a thing I've seen a few PM/RDDs go.

As for "pass it as RDD levels", I'm not sure what you mean. If you get RDD levels, your character would still grow scales, and all that. Now, possibly, you could ask the DM team if they'd give you the free undead wings, instead of free "normal" wings. Mind: Undead wings can't fly. Too many holes in them, and all that.

Someone made a Palemaster/Dragon Disciple that emulated the path of a Dracolich, decaying/skeletal wings and such. It was kind of neat.

My RDD/PM has the skeletal wings
Got them for free

Lucius had the skeletal wings (ones taken from a wyvren, rather than a dragon) as a wizard pale master. The mad man just grafted them onto his body.

You guys are GREAT!!! I love all the input here. Sorry it has been so long since I read it - I had a couple of baby showers come up and was making afghans. (And next week I will be back in the hospital - finally getting the gall bladder - that 5 doctors can't find in sonogram - out.)

OK, I am pretty convinced that I really shouldn't try to do this as anything other than evil. So I am still thinking about how I want to do this within the community. I think being isolated will help with the negative reactions, and if it becomes unbearable, I can always go to my (many) other people.

As far as dragon type, how about this?: Tarterian Dragon
I would likely want to change the name, since name meanings are important to me. (For any of my significant characters, I can give a reason for the name I took.)

As I understand it, I can change my description in the shout channel. Since he starts out normal, there would be no special notations, but as he changes, I can put in what is physically different. It would be nice to have a step by step for what actually happens at each level of both the PM and the (R)DD. I found the link to the PM Lore and Mechanics VERY helpful, is there one for the RDD as well? Heads I knew you could change, can you change skin color?

You say he would only be allowed in Cordor - not Taarkul? I would think PM would be tolerated there.

In this case, it isn't that he is seeking to be undead - he is seeking to overpower death in himself. His only interest, really, is to become more resilient, and is willing to sacrifice quite a bit to be so. He would be a good tank for others, if they wanted to use him for such. Likely he would only be in association with a very few, and pretty much only those who are an advantage to him.

Still giving this thought. You all have been very helpful.

I like pushing myself, so...

You can see the mechanical changes here.

As for the RP by the level, we've always said that it's kind of case-by-case. Every path is different for every disciple. Generally speaking, you can use these mechanical changes as a guideline for the RP.

For example, when you gain an AC bonus, you can RP scales growing stronger or thicker. When you gain that INT bonus at 9, it could mark the first significant mental change, as it has officially affected the character's mind. You have a lot of freedom with how these levels go. A lot of people take the "ritual" approach.

The only thing you really need to do is follow these RP guidelines alongside the mechanical.

Ah...I was thinking physical, I suppose, instead of mechanical (altho they are closely related). That list I knew about.

What is the thought about the dragon type? Or just stick with the standards....

What I was saying is that you have a lot of freedom in the physical side of it. You can choose to get something other than wings at 9, and you can get horns or legs or tail at 18. It's really up to you how much the character changes and to what degree the changes show.

As for Tarterian dragon... It is possible, yes. You'll need a request, of course, so you can show you understand the qualities and ramifications of the dragon type. Tarterian dragons are vicious, and they consume fiends and souls - the latter of which is an extremely evil act. These things are on the far spectrum of evil.

So... honestly, I would suggest going blue dragon or something. A NE blue dragon disciple wouldn't necessarily have to be as blatantly, ridiculously evil as a tarterian dragon disciple would. Blue dragons have a lot of control and a highly developed sense of Order. If you're uncomfortable with evil in a general sense, maybe stick with a dragon type that's easier on you.

But it's up to you!

Sounds good.

Thanks everyone for the input!

Good luck! I hope the character is fun for you, whichever way you go.

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