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Hi there

I wonder if playing with a pure wizard would still have a fair chance here. In order to know that, what would be the usual build the server allows to still extract some fun on PVE and PvP?

Also, If I got it right, a drow wizard would miss 2 points on his DCs checks for spells?

And, to the last, Mord would still strip the target from Mind Blank obtained from potions and Negative Energy protection also from potions?

I thank you.

Any pure caster will do fine in pve and pvp here. And that's even if you have no clue about builds. Heck, I've even been tempted in the past to hit "recommended" on level ups just to see what NWN thinks is a good wizard build.

If you build the drow as a pure wizard starting off at 20 int, ending with a int of 40 with gear, that puts him at only -1 DC from what a normal human who stops at 38 int gets. The reasoning is, a normal human would have to take two great intelligence feats to get to 40 geared int. Those two feats eat up epic spells and in my opinion the spells are better than 1 DC.

Mord's is the be all of dispels. It first breaches 6 buffs then has a dispel check for the rest if it's cast on a single target. (cast at an area, it breaches two buffs, then starts the dispel checks for the rest) Now, here's the wonderful NWN engine problem. If you have no caster levels, then your character level equals your potion caster level. It's why if you're not a caster you keep your potion buffs when a mob casts greater dispell on you. So without testing, I cant say for sure if the potion buffs are stripped by mords if you have more than 6 on you. I would tend to believe so, but it might fall under the "bioware hardcoded it this way" category that some quirks have.

So long as you keep yourself hasted and hand greater sanctuary slotted you stand a pretty good chance even with a build that isn't optimized for ac and fort/con

Your most reliable spells do damage without touching anyone's saves, and I would heavily consider some criss class trapping ranks so you can lay down darkness and waylay everyone with the ridiculous damage you do.

I built a sorcerer way back in the day without any sort of clue as to what I was doing, and he's still a viable character. You really can't go wrong with casters.

I'm almost done with the old build thread, though, and there is quite a bit of talk on casters in it. If you want to wait a bit, I'll make it easily accessible. If you don't want to wait, PM me and I'll shoot you the links.

Thank you all. And yes, I'll PM you.

Well, depending on what sort of spell foculs you're taking, it will make some significant difference. Last I recall, you have potions vs Negative Energy that if I recall well cannot be dispelled. So basically you're immune vs Harm from clerics because of a potion (lame).

Considering it's quite easy you get FORT to avoid most of the deadly spells along with dump on Spellcraft as 1 lvl rogue/bard, you end up with not so deadly spells such as domination and any sort of crowd control. Which leads me to a question: Dominating Moster will work on characters? If no, then it's another lame spell. Also Hold Monsters. Will that work on characters either?

And keep in mind I'm talking about pure wizards. We all know that Sorcerers can have better access to a large number of spells doing that CHA bonus plus saves it they cross build with paladins (another lame thing allowed by NWN).

And finally, if a rogue with UMD can Mord any target like a pure wizard, well that's another terrible lame situation and I hope it could be changed to something based on caster level in the future.

Dominate Monster does work on characters, but PC's can just chug a mindblank pot and be rid of it. Not so great. Hold Monster would work, but Bigby's are better.

Now that there's a cap on pally goodness based on level (IE, if you only take one level of paladin, you only get +1 to saves and AC/DMG from your CHA bonus), this doesn't work as well as it used to.

A rogue could theoretically mord you with a scroll, but you're going to have less things dispelled than if a pure caster does it. Besides, any rogue that takes the time to Mord a pure caster is gonna get blasted before the disjunction really helps anything.

Last I recall BigBy's is fort check and Hold Monster is Will check.

Besides, if Mord can dispell Mind blank, then it's okay to cast Hold monster or Dominate monster anyway. I wonder, however, the duration of it. Does it go with the standard? Also, how about Mass Charm? Does it work like Domination spell on characters? Will they be able to drink Mind Blank potions? (another lame issue if they're still be able to drink potions while under control of domination spells).

Alright, please someone tell me that this Vehement Charge from KC can be dispelled by a Mord.

It's not a magical effect, so no.

And considering mages are OP, having counters to them is not a bad thing. Nor is it lame.

Finally, if PCs are still able to drink potions while under Domination spell I suggest the Devs to change that lame concept for the sake of balance.

Will saves are the bane of anyone who's build lacks Spellcraft. Bigby spells, with the exceptioin of interposing hand I think, all use grapple checks and work better if you are a pure caster (I believe) due to how high you can get your int score on them, as well as using your caster level as your BAB

Naivatkal wrote:

It's not a magical effect, so no.

And considering mages are OP, having counters to them is not a bad thing. Nor is it lame.

Well anyone can dispell a caster. So why not giving a caster a chance to dispell that aura either? Oh, right, because if allowed so, any rogue would be able to dispell that aura too via scroll.

And again, using potions of mind blank while being dominated is a HUGE lame issue.

Naivatkal wrote:

It's not a magical effect, so no.

And considering mages are OP, having counters to them is not a bad thing. Nor is it lame.

And this. Sorcerer/Shadowdancer/Ranger is arguably the strongest build on the server currently.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Will saves are the bane of anyone who's build lacks Spellcraft. Bigby spells, with the exceptioin of interposing hand I think, all use grapple checks and work better if you are a pure caster (I believe) due to how high you can get your int score on them, as well as using your caster level as your BAB

There is a FORT check after all If I recall well so...

For your convenience, with wiki links

Amian spell changes

Interposing Hand - no save at all, -10 AB for the target.

Forceful Hand - Fort save for half damage and knockdown separately

Grasping Hand - No save, target makes a grapple check or is held.

Clenched Fist - Damages targets once per round, requires total concentration

Crushing Fist - saveless stun, damage every round, requires total concentration

Only two of these have any save, the rest are extremely powerful

You... don't really sound like you are going to enjoy a pure wizard, no matter how viable it is. Casters are OP, and just because not every spell means instant wins in PVP doesn't change that much (that really wouldn't be much fun for any other class, would it?). If one spell doesn't do it, you have 63+ more to try, which can then be changed entirely within 15 minutes. Casters barely even need gear here.

Everything -should- have a counter, that's how D&D is meant to work. Nothing should be that OP that it's just... BAM! I win. Sure, there are things that work better against some folks, and worse on others, but.... things aren't all just... lame.

In all honesty my friend, you might be overthinking things. It's very hard to build a pure caster who isn't OP. Even with all the balance checks, a pure sorcerer or wizard is almost always going to come out on top, unless you really, really botch the build.

Now, there are things on the server that do allow non casters to stand up to casters. And that's a good thing. It makes PC's who choose to play casters play them better, and smarter.

Like I said in PM's though, I've always favored pure damage spells over DC-based spells. That's just my flavor, though.

Everything must to have a counter, indeed. I'm not saying wizards (and not Sorcerers) need more love. But I'm saying it's stupid to have one under Domination Spell being able to drink Mind Blank potions. Or Negative Energy protection from potions not being able to be Mord.

There is another point I noticed. The fact that clerics are able to cast sanctuary like for a few seconds so still being able to cast spells. Then why casters are not able to do it as well? They're also quite squish and considering anyone can cast See Invisibility, a pure caster is not able to hide from anyone. Not even able to see anyone coming around.

You all may claim that pure wizards (not talking about sorcerers) can do a lot of damage and also have DC spells that we all know it's a fishing for 1-3 on rolls. But if we measure the odds someone has to kill a caster you will see that's totally unbalanced because you have more chances to KD or Cripple or Dev a pure wizard after casting your Mord from scroll. One could say you can push the AC with spells and get concealment, but considering anyone can use Mord, that's not a counter, even if you play smart. It's like, if you get Mord, you only have the option to cast GS and run away. There is nothing else you can do. But a cleric could cast Sanctuary-like and try something without being murdered the next round.

The curse of multiclassing and how cheap anyone can use scrolls is what kills the fact pure wizards won't be so fancy to play on a PvP server. I didn't test though the ability of the server to improve or support the RP for pure wizards yet, and honestly that's the only way I see the server balancing that unique sort of build.

By the way, if you Mord a wizard with EMD on, will you disable the creature as well? I think so.

alamut wrote:

Also, If I got it right, a drow wizard would miss 2 points on his DCs checks for spells?

A drow wizard misses out on 2 caster levels. Their DC's for spells are just as high or higher than everyone else's.

For defense against dispelling, 24 caster levels is optimal, so the drow max of 28 is plenty. The biggest drawback of being drow is the lack of flexibility for multi-class builds.... and it's impossible to get hellball.

Haven was to balance clerics, not wizards. And both wizards and clerics can cast Greater Sanctuary, and neither class are able to cast spells while under the effect.

The GS nerf occured for a reason, if you remember that occasion from 2009 November. GS works pretty well as it is now, compared to Haven. Not to mention that wizards still have timestop among other things, which gives then significant advantages. You can still blast a dude before or after he uses a Mord on you. Your only threat would be a well built paladin or blackguard, depends depends on your character's alignment.
Domination on another PC works perfectly, even if they mechanically can drink mindblank or clarity potions, they shouldn't.

You can't drink potions while dazed I believe now, which Dominate Monster does to PC's

Rigela wrote:

You can't drink potions while dazed I believe now, which Dominate Monster does to PC's

This!

Lutra wrote:

The GS nerf occured for a reason, if you remember that occasion from 2009 November. GS works pretty well as it is now, compared to Haven.

You got to be kidding. It doesn't work pretty well as it's now, compared to Haven. Can you imagine how long a GS would take to ware off if you have CL 30? Besides, while in Haven you can still do something but GS you can't cast spells but run away.

Lutra wrote:

Not to mention that wizards still have timestop among other things, which gives then significant advantages.

Again, you're thinking about multiclass casters. I'm talking about pure Wizards. And no, if you get someone closer enough to KD it's game over. You can't cast TS forever. Also, you probably thinking aobut sorcerers that have like 24 spell slots for those lvl 9 spells so yes they can cast TS forever. But a wizard can't. You may say they could craft scrolls but if you really rely on that time spent to read a scroll it's end of the game.

Lutra wrote:

You can still blast a dude before or after he uses a Mord on you.

Considering how cheap those rings with immunity to fire are or immunity to another elemental damage or how easy it is to buy potions with elemental shield, well...

Also, you didn't mention the possibility of a lvl 1 rogue dispelling a EMD from a pure wizard with a scroll of Mord. That's pretty lame if that happens. That's not balance. But again, doing the fact of multiclassing, pure wizards will suffer the nerfe deep into their skins.

I have a few suggestions but since the thread is locked down it's impossible to.

A level 1 rogue can't read that scroll to do it.

Erh... I meant to say lvl 1 in rogue so you can bump up UMD

Elemental Immunity Rings are not cheap. They're anything between 2-5 million or more. Elemental Shield potions aren't cheap either, ranging around 7-9k per bottle.

As for Haven, it's not as great as you think it is. 5 rounds = 30 seconds (non-extendible). In which you can only cast buffing spells. Any hostile spells will dispell it, making it objectively useless as a 'cast-and-win', like old GS was.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Elemental Immunity Rings are not cheap. They're anything between 2-5 million or more. Elemental Shield potions aren't cheap either, ranging around 7-9k per bottle.

As for Haven, it's not as great as you think it is. 5 rounds = 30 seconds (non-extendible). In which you can only cast buffing spells. Any hostile spells will dispell it, making it objectively useless as a 'cast-and-win', like old GS was.

That's something old toons are still able to acquire anyway.

Time Stop are only 9 seconds. Haven are 30 seconds. Which one give you the best chance to counter attack something? Or to just walk a few steps back before casting an offensive spell? Hell I would trade Time Stop for Haven, that's for sure. And if I recall well Haven is not even a lvl 9 spell like TimeStop !

And yet nobody replied my saying about EMD being dispelled by a Mord casted by a toon with one miserable lvl in rogue/bard for UMD. If you really think that's fair, then you're crazy. Make it not being able to be dispelled then we could talk.

Why not just use the time he spends reading the scroll to slap him with a Bigby's or a Wail or something? You are still able to cast spells, even if your summon is being countered.

Honestly It's a bad joke allowing just one lvl in rogue with uber UMD to beat from a scroll an epic feat. This should be removed for epic summons. That's balance. And again I'm not talking about half casters. I'l talking about pure wizard builds that have invested on epic feats. Epic Magical Armor or something alike cannot be dispelled for a reason multiclasses really enjoy. But pure wizards don't rely much on ACs and instead summons and alike.

I would suggest a plus for pure classes to do not allow their summons to be removed by Mord. But only if you're full lvl caster.

Mage summons are already absurd as they are now. So no.

Pure Wizards/Sorc are already more powerful than 90% of multiclassed builds anyway, and while they do not get the benefits of multiclassing they can easily pick up every single epic spell and grab a few Epic Spell Focus to boot. They are monsters in their own right and they don't need a buff.

Hey, I see where you're coming from on this alamut. That is kinda absurd from a logical standpoint. But from a balance standpoint, I kind of have to disagree with your position. An epic mage has no less than a dozen ways to kill another PC. You're talking about one or two ways that can be countered by the majority of the playerbase.

Logical? No, not really. Balanced? I actually find that to be pretty balanced, yes. Even if a lowly rogue can dispel a powerful summon, in the time it takes that rogue to do that action, you can GR, Hellball, Meteor, Wail, Max IGMS, etc. him straight into the ground. Mages are still just about the most powerful class to take, even with the various nerfs to their spells. Those nerfs just bring the rest of the playerbase within striking distance, instead of immediately being crushed underfoot.

Pure sorc have uber number of spell slots. But pure wizards do not. Still I think it's a huge lame someone being able to dispell an epic summon with one lvl in rogue for UMD by using a Mord scroll. No matter how powerful they are, anyone can dispell it, but not monsters.

And again, why having Timespot for 9 seconds if you can have Haven that's 30 seconds and low lvl. Hell yeah, I would trade Timestop for Haven.

They're not 90% powerful. Perhaps something around 30 or maybe 40% if you're optimist. Whenever someone spot and Mord a pure wizard, it's done. He would have to decide between casting one wail and pray for a 1 or 3 on rolls before someone KD or Crupple attack or anything else.

They're not meant to win a battle alone, no. They're supportive builds but the fact that scrolls can dispell an epic summon sounds so wrong, plus the idea Haven is uber in comparison to Timestop. One could say "hey, timestop prevent you and your party from damage". Like a wizard would actually care about his party taking damage (assuming they're in that area). He would be the first to desire to get hell out of there. But that depends on the RP and the nature of the character. Regardless, you can have the same effect from Haven but only on your toon. And for long 30 seconds, I would sell my toon's soul for it.

Imagine if your Epic Improved Evasion could be disabled for a few rounds from a scroll you can buy or use your alter to craft? That's frustrating.

I'm not really following your power assessment. I think that's where we disconnect a bit. I've lost...two fights on my sorcerer? In seven years. Now, I understand there's quite a bit of difference between a wizard and sorcerer in that regard. But, if you prepare accordingly, you'll still be able to defend yourself adequately as a wizard. If you walk around assuming anything you summon can be banished, and prepare accordingly, you should still be just fine.

davis114 wrote:

GR, Hellball, Meteor, Wail, Max IGMS, etc. him straight into the ground. Mages are still just about the most powerful class to take, even with the various nerfs to their spells. Those nerfs just bring the rest of the playerbase within striking distance, instead of immediately being crushed underfoot.

Really? With all these epic spells your DC on wail will be a bad joke. Also, if you're using meteor that means you need to get closer to your target. Good luck on that considering pure wizards have low AC. You still have GR and Hellball, sure but that's too much effort just for one target. You can cast IGMS indeed, but remember, you're a pure wizard with limited spell slots and not a sorcerer.

You probably don't have a pure wizard to understand the frustration of loosing an epic summon from a scroll casted by 1 lvl rogue.

davis114 wrote:

I'm not really following your power assessment. I think that's where we disconnect a bit. I've lost...two fights on my sorcerer? In seven years. Now, I understand there's quite a bit of difference between a wizard and sorcerer in that regard. But, if you prepare accordingly, you'll still be able to defend yourself adequately as a wizard. If you walk around assuming anything you summon can be banished, and prepare accordingly, you should still be just fine.

Well if you understand now the difference betweem wizards and sorcerers you will see they do rely and need the best of the use of those spell slots. And loosing an epic summon that quickly it's a terrible thing. As for a sorcerer, he would cast like...13 or more max Icestorm.

I understand where you are coming from with the sorc, a bit anyway. The thing is you forget the fact that the wizard is the most versatile caster in the game. She/he can get every single spell, and on top of that customize their spell book for every situation. Sorc and wizards both use the same spellbook but serve slightly different functions. If they were exactly the same performance wise then you would just have two identical mage classes and that would be boring/pointless.

Maverick00053 wrote:

I understand where you are coming from with the sorc, a bit anyway. The thing is you forget the fact that the wizard is the most versatile caster in the game. She/he can get every single spell, and on top of that customize their spell book for every situation. Sorc and wizards both use the same spellbook but serve slightly different functions. If they were exactly the same performance wise then you would just have two identical mage classes and that would be boring/pointless.

But it doesn't exclude the fact that sorcerers have more chances to fish for a 1-3 on rolls with their Wails than a wizard. That also point to the fact that a pure wizard, even being versatile, would need that Epic summon around. As for a sorcerer, he wouldn't have those nice and fluffy extra spells a wizard could get, but would focus on those more relevant ones to be casted thousand times and with a better change for a fail on target's roll.

So, then make Epic summons from wizards not to be dispelled from Mord so easily unless you match the Caster level of the target if that helps the balance, avoiding sorcerers to be too powerful.

alamut wrote:

So, then make Epic summons from wizards not to be dispelled from Mord so easily unless you match the Caster level of the target if that helps the balance, avoiding sorcerers to be too powerful.

Not sure why you would troll your own thread and turn it into some rant about Mord scrolls, but I'll play your game.

Mord scrolls are really not that common. Also, if you think that the most powerful thing a rogue can do against a wizard is use a Mord scroll, I just can't WAIT to pvp with you.

The most dangerous character in pvp is a sorc. Period. I don't care what your build is, a well built sorc with a skilled player behind it is invincible. Wizards easily come in at a close second. Your super mega awesome game breaking mord scroll pvp maneuver doesn't change that.

alamut wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

I understand where you are coming from with the sorc, a bit anyway. The thing is you forget the fact that the wizard is the most versatile caster in the game. She/he can get every single spell, and on top of that customize their spell book for every situation. Sorc and wizards both use the same spellbook but serve slightly different functions. If they were exactly the same performance wise then you would just have two identical mage classes and that would be boring/pointless.

But it doesn't exclude the fact that sorcerers have more chances to fish for a 1-3 on rolls with their Wails than a wizard. That also point to the fact that a pure wizard, even being versatile, would need that Epic summon around. As for a sorcerer, he wouldn't have those nice and fluffy extra spells a wizard could get, but would focus on those more relevant ones to be casted thousand times and with a better change for a fail on target's roll.

So, then make Epic summons from wizards not to be dispelled from Mord so easily unless you match the Caster level of the target if that helps the balance, avoiding sorcerers to be too powerful.

There is far more to a caster than spamming Wails I am afraid. We cannot just balance two classes based solely off each other and when comparing a single spell. Yes, like joe has said, sorcs are the best in pvp but really the differences in their power when it comes down to it is minimal at best. Wizards are more versatile and Sorcs are more specialized. There is no reason to give wizard a power boost so it becomes even more dominate in pvp and also the most versatile class in the game. Honestly every other class in the game would need a -significant- boost in power before those two classes are even considered for a boost themselves.

joe15552 wrote:

alamut wrote:

So, then make Epic summons from wizards not to be dispelled from Mord so easily unless you match the Caster level of the target if that helps the balance, avoiding sorcerers to be too powerful.

Not sure why you would troll your own thread and turn it into some rant about Mord scrolls, but I'll play your game.

Mord scrolls are really not that common. Also, if you think that the most powerful thing a rogue can do against a wizard is use a Mord scroll, I just can't WAIT to pvp with you.

The most dangerous character in pvp is a sorc. Period. I don't care what your build is, a well built sorc with a skilled player behind it is invincible. Wizards easily come in at a close second. Your super mega awesome game breaking mord scroll pvp maneuver doesn't change that.

I'm not trolling my own post, mind you. I'm just make a valid assumption. And hell no. I'm saying a muticlassed player with 1 miserable lvl in rogue can do pretty much damage on removing spells from a class dedicated ti have spells on. Period. And I don't think that's fair that same muticlassed toon with 1 miserable lvl in rogue to be allowed to remove an epic summon a wizard dedicated so much to study and improve.

Also, Mord scrolls are easy to be acquired. Well we can't change that. I'm just asking wizards to have a better chance. Why would that be so difficul to allow epic casters to do their epic battles instead of allowing a half caster (one with 1 lvl in rogue or bard) to ruin the fun? Make those scrolls to work on based on CL. If you think that's not fair because your multiclassed Figther/1 lvl rogue then bring your caster mate along with you and I'll bring my WM along with me.

Maverick00053 wrote:

alamut wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

I understand where you are coming from with the sorc, a bit anyway. The thing is you forget the fact that the wizard is the most versatile caster in the game. She/he can get every single spell, and on top of that customize their spell book for every situation. Sorc and wizards both use the same spellbook but serve slightly different functions. If they were exactly the same performance wise then you would just have two identical mage classes and that would be boring/pointless.

But it doesn't exclude the fact that sorcerers have more chances to fish for a 1-3 on rolls with their Wails than a wizard. That also point to the fact that a pure wizard, even being versatile, would need that Epic summon around. As for a sorcerer, he wouldn't have those nice and fluffy extra spells a wizard could get, but would focus on those more relevant ones to be casted thousand times and with a better change for a fail on target's roll.

So, then make Epic summons from wizards not to be dispelled from Mord so easily unless you match the Caster level of the target if that helps the balance, avoiding sorcerers to be too powerful.

There is far more to a caster than spamming Wails I am afraid. We cannot just balance two classes based solely off each other and when comparing a single spell. Yes, like joe has said, sorcs are the best in pvp but really the differences in their power when it comes down to it is minimal at best. Wizards are more versatile and Sorcs are more specialized. There is no reason to give wizard a power boost so it becomes even more dominate in pvp and also the most versatile class in the game. Honestly every other class in the game would need a -significant- boost in power before those two classes are even considered for a boost themselves.

Well I'll still try my wizard and see if the server still provides some RP fun and support in comparison to a limited and less versatile class. I really thing it's odd to see those requests for spells on Request Thread by sorcerers since they're less versatile and more specialized. Basically they're not intelligent to learn or create new spells. Anyway, I'll give it a try.

Sorc's who request unique spells give up a spell choice to acquire them.

Sorcerers kind of create their spells in a different way. A lot of times, they use magic differently born out of necessity or instinct. When a sorcerer requests a custom spell, it's not generally because the sorcerer has done a lot of IC research and work to create the spell. At least, in most cases. That's the thing, though. Wizards are by far better in rp circumstances than Sorcerers. So it sort of depends on what you want out of the character when you choose between the classes.

Sorcs are better in PvP. There's really no way around that. But Wizards have much better rp uses.

Serious question: Have you even bothered to look into the Amia spell changes, or even look at the NWN wiki entry on Mord's? Or even looked at what a dispel check is? I have a feeling that, if you had done so, most of these questions would be answered already.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Sorc's who request unique spells give up a spell choice to acquire them.

Considering sorcerers would pick up the best spell selection, I can only hope you guys balance the spell requested. After all, they already picked the best of the spell book, being able to cast 10 times.

Naivatkal wrote:

Serious question: Have you even bothered to look into the Amia spell changes, or even look at the NWN wiki entry on Mord's? Or even looked at what a dispel check is? I have a feeling that, if you had done so, most of these questions would be answered already.

One said Mord has been changed here in Amia but I can't see that on Modification - spells. Also, by using a scroll I don't know if the server has changed that to be equally as the CL from who made the scroll or it's the standard one.

davis114 wrote:

But Wizards have much better rp uses.

One can only dream to test if that's really true in Amia.

Scribed scrolls have a specific CL they are set to.

alamut wrote:

davis114 wrote:

But Wizards have much better rp uses.

One can only dream to test if that's really true in Amia.

The answer is yes.

A question about pure wizards

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