AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

There's every variant of that under the sun, easy to mess it up and hard to master. A lot of people will say you need SD levels bit I think a corner sneaking darkness casting rogue/DC (maybe even MS if you want some cool abilities) is better if you know how to advantageously use line of sight. That said, HiPS is super fun. It's like having a button that says "I don't need to learn line of sight mechanic!" and its so fun to use in combat.

Rogue 30

Add a grapple to the combat system, and annoying HIPsters would find themselves getting the shit beat out of them. Once your little rogue with piddly strength is grappled, he's not going to be able to hide while the fighter with a 36 strength successfully makes his continued grappled roll and shanks him to death.

There are plenty of things that would realistically reduce the effectiveness or completely nullify HIPS and hide in shadows - not magical counters, but every day elements of combat systems that aren't used in NWN.

HiPS and Hide suck in NWN. The implementation is shit, and I'd rather squeeze my balls extra hard than have to fight someone who can just take advantage of a crappy run/attack implementation and a crappy hide implementation.

The problem with that scenario Kenneth, is landing the attack to first start a grapple. Epic dodge along with high ac a dexer has makes grappleing them very difficult. All it would counter is the builds that only go for 6 shadowdancer for HiPS.

Landing the first attack isn't THAT hard. Haste still counts. Ferocity for barbarians. So you'll have at least one normal chance even if they're epic dodgers. Truestrike will mitigate insanely high ACs and compensate for AB bonuses lost from weapons and weapon skills. It won't be easy to make the roll, but it's not going to be super hard either.

It's harder than you make it out. Given your example, you have 3 chances to grapple them at your top bab. There's 4 chances per grapple attempt that the grapple will fail if you're trying to grapple an epic dodger.

Miss grapple attack
Epic dodge
Attack of opportunity on the grappler lands
Opposed grapple check fails

Granted, strength barbarians with ferocity attack are probably the best at attempting a grapple, but it's still not easy to do. And since we dont have a widget or feat for it, it still falls under the pnp rule so an epic dodger can just say no to the ability.

And if you're using grapple rules, a Dexer does not have to oppose you with strength to escape. Escape Artist checks are based on dex so...

Grapple is never going to happen, either way.

Neither is light spells as a counter, realistic cover rules and lighting penalties, nets, buckets of bright paint, or anything else that ameliorates the constant and eternal bullshit that is NWN HiPS and Hiding.

Unless it's been changed, if you're having that much trouble with people using HiPS, there's a level 4 spell scroll that's readily available that hard counters it.

Which level 4 scroll would that be?

Hard counter? Perhaps.

Keep you alive? Not necessarily.

Every single one of my characters has enough Spot that hiding from them is mechanically, mathematically impossible for more than a few seconds. Stealth is hideously outmatched if you invest even a modicum into countering it.

Suhjet wrote:

Hard counter? Perhaps.

Keep you alive? Not necessarily.

Exactly. You can see them!......as they slice and dice you.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Every single one of my characters has enough Spot that hiding from them is mechanically, mathematically impossible for more than a few seconds. Stealth is hideously outmatched if you invest even a modicum into countering it.

Quoted for emphesis. It's one of those skills that's easy to get, and there's spells and gear that oozes it so you can have it close to max easily.

Umberhulks are cute, mostly because they have such low saves. Enjoy getting shadow dazed

Throwing axes mighty up based off your strength, but they still are based off your dex for accuracy correct?

Maverick00053 wrote:

Throwing axes mighty up based off your strength, but they still are based off your dex for accuracy correct?

Correct. Unless you have a zen archery thrower it uses dex.

So in honour of Sir Terry's passing, I read through The Last Hero... and now I want to make a Barbarian/Rogue. I'm thinking DEX-based, taking both Epic Dodge and Terrifying Rage if possible. How should I go about this?

Do a search for "terrifying dodger". 16 barbarian/ 13 rogue/ 1 ranger is the build.

While that is admittedly my favorite variant of rogue (close race between that and rogue/blackguard), I don't know if that's what Hork is looking for as a concept. It is really, really strong in combat though, I'll say that.

I think we got crossed up and were replying to two different people. Larsaan wanted the terrifying dodger build. Hork's gonna have to get more specific on what he wants. Other than rogue 30 for a master thief, you can be anything to steal stuff.

I'm currently building a 25/5 bard/kc, I'm wondering if i should rush for Kc first (currently level 7, i think I can take it at next level) and take my 4 levels early or should I aim to get 16 bard first then take my Kc levels? RP-wise I'm flexible holding off for a bit If mechanically its worthwhile, but it would be nice to snag the martial weapons and the KC aura's early. I've never played a bard but noticed that 16th level song is pretty awesome. Any thoughts?

I am building an Axe thrower character and crippling strike apparently doesn't work with ranged weapons. Impro Evasion and defensive roll are both already going to be taken and I am going to have a third rogue special feat. Out of the remaining feats is there one that really stands out? I know Slippery mind isn't as bad as the other remaining feats, but a mind blank makes it pointless. Thoughts?

Slippery Mind is okay I guess, but I was always a fan of Opportunist- especially if you're a sneak happy little poop head. Skill Mastery is wonderful for the RPs though.

If you are taking that 16th rogue level in epic it allows you to choose from the epic feat list.

Other than the epic dodge pre requisites only Epic dodge is any good.

Skill Mastery is pointless because if you're in combat you should never be doing those things. It'll just get you killed.

If you're relying on attacks of opportunity for your income of damage, you've probably already lost the fight.

Slippery mind is great because if you do your build right (and take spellcraft) you can get a 30ish will save and that gives you a lot of wiggle room.

How much hide is considered the necessary amount for PvM? I know PvP you're supposed to max the shit out of it and still have difficulties, but how good are the eyes on, say, fire giants? I'm wondering if a non-dex based rogue/sd/(x) is viable in PvM.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Skill Mastery is pointless because if you're in combat you should never be doing those things. It'll just get you killed.

Skill Mastery has tons of RP potential, though. And it saves a bit of time not having to wait for the 'combat round' to fade after it's over. Plus if you're in a DM event you can pick that lock to escape without fail!

Opportunist is just ... awful. With everyone having Tumble you are going to be hard pressed to even hit someone with an AoO (even my fullplaters with Tumble don't get hit by AoOs most of the time).
Slippery Mind is not all that great, still, given Spellcraft doesn't work with all spells. And MB makes it pointless, yah, and if you are greater dispel immune nothing short of a dedicated caster using Mord's is going to remove it from you.
Typically I go with Crippling Strike because that's just fun in PvM (and sometimes PvP, believe me people do forget bubbly potions).

blackvswhite wrote:

How much hide is considered the necessary amount for PvM? I know PvP you're supposed to max the shit out of it and still have difficulties, but how good are the eyes on, say, fire giants? I'm wondering if a non-dex based rogue/sd/(x) is viable in PvM.

I don't know specifics but I would say if you max ranks and have gear you should be fine. I have a fullplate wearing SD and they tend to not be seen (at least, in the old fire giants).

Last edited by Drakos_Vek on Tue, Mar 17 2015, 14:42 PM, edited 1 time in total.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Skill Mastery is pointless because if you're in combat you should never be doing those things. It'll just get you killed.

Except for those times in DM events when the entire expedition is killed and you need to set down epic traps quickly to kill the mass of DM Spawned PC-Murderers.

You know. THOSE TIMES GERALD.

Skill Mastery is awesome. Automatic Natural 20s to Disable Devices, Set Trap and Open Lock. As a pure rogue, I can tell you Drakos may use it a lot less often than the other rogue special feats, but it damn well pulls its weight when you need it. It particularly pulls through as a lot of don't accept "take 20" during events, whereas Skill Mastery is still accepted.

Straight offense, with a hidden side to defense. Probably wielding a greataxe. 9d6 Sneak Dice, high strength, and devestating critical, on top of improved knockdown, attacking from stealth. A nice glassy cannon for PvM, I hope.

Race: probably half orc or human
alignment: any
17 Rogue/6 Shadowdancer/7 Fighter
Str: 18 -> 25
Dex: 13+ based on desired armor
Con: X - anything extra
Int: X - you don't need to know things
Wis: X - you don't need to think
Cha: X - you don't need to talk good

1 FTR - Weapon Focus, Power Attack
2 FTR - Cleave
3 FTR - Dodge
4 FTR (str 19) - Weapon Specialization
5 RG
6 RG - Mobility
7 RG
8 RG (str 20)
9 SD - Great Cleave
10 SD
11 SD
12 SD (str 21) - Knockdown
13 SD
14 SD- (HiPS)
15 RG - Improved Knockdown
16 RG (str 22)
17 RG
18 RG - Improved Critical
19 FTR
20 FTR (str 23) - Skill Focus: Hide
21 FTR - Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization
22 RG
23 RG - Crippling Strike
24 RG (str 24) - Overwhelming Critical
25 RG
26 RG - Improved Evasion
27 RG - Epic Prowess
28 RG (str 25)
29 RG - Epic Skill Focus: Hide
30 RG - Devestating Critical

Your first level should be rogue, giving you an extra 24 skill point boost. Fighter 7 doesnt give you a bonus feat, so you wont be able to take epic weapon spec at 21.

Change your pre-epic levels to 12 rogue/4sd/4 fighter. Gives you the same ab, and puts an extra fighter level into epic so now you can take epic weapon spec. Also, make one of your last two levels fighter to max out your discipline.

Change epic prowess to a great strength. Gives the same attack bonus, plus gives you one more to your dev crit dc.

Now, my question is, what's the concept? Because a two hand build, while doing great damage, wont last long if they get swarmed. You would need something else other than HiPS to compensate. Barbarians do it with damage reduction and massive hit points. Bards have song and curse. It just seems we can get a better build for your concept if you give us a bit more.

Glass Cannon is a concept.
16 Rogue 6 SD 8 Fighter Is the build.
Pre-epic 12 rogue / 4 SD / 4 Fighter

This gives you 3 of the rogue bonus feats, 2 of which are in epic so more epic bonus feats

Human so a bonus feat at level 1 (start with rogue)
1: Dodge
1(Human): Blindfight
2(Fighter1): WF: GreatAxe
3(Fighter2): Power Attack
3: Cleave
6: Great Cleave
6:Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: GreatAxe
9: Mobility
12: Imp Crit: GreatAxe
15: Knockdown
18: Improved Knockdown
18(10 Rogue): Improved Evasion

21: Epic Weapon Focus
23(Fighter 6): Epic Weapon Specialization
24: Overwhelming Critical
25(Rogue13): Crippling Strike
27: Great Strength
29:(Fighter

: Armor Skin
30: Devastating Critical
30(16Rogue): Epic Skill Focus: Hide

Drakos Vek wrote:

You know. THOSE TIMES GERALD.

Those creatures totally would have dued even without skill mastery since they had no search

That said, Drakos plays my favorite rogue on amia. But from a purely mechanical standpoint trapping mid fight means you are usually relying on the opposition not having search either way, or just trying to plow through them like people so often do. It's fun, but slippery mind is vastly superior.

Fairly valid points all around. I think ill leave it till I get up to that level, see where the RP leads me.

sorry, I'm just in a building mood. This isn't for a specific character, nor was the last one, but I wanna see what I can come up with. 11Monk/5KC/14DwD.

str: 14
dex: 12
con: 17 (24)
int: 10
wis: 12
cha: 10

1 monk: (cleave, evasion) dodge
2 monk:
3 monk: toughness
4 monk: (18 con)
5 monk:
6 monk: (kd, ikd) skill focus: discipline
7 monk:
8 monk: (19 con)
9 KC: power attack
10 KC:
11 KC:
12 KC: (20 con) great cleave
13 KC:
14 Dwd:
15 Dwd: blind fight
16 Dwd: (21 con)
17 Dwd:
18 Dwd: weapon focus: unarmed
19 Dwd:
20 Dwd: (22 con)
21 Dwd: Armor Skin
22 Dwd:
23 Dwd:
24 Dwd: (23 con) Epic Damage Reduction: 1
25 Dwd:
26 Dwd:
27 Dwd: Epic Damage Reduction: 2, Epic Damage Reduction: 3
28 Monk: (24 con)
29 Monk:
30 Monk: Epic Weapon Focus: unarmed

At work but here are a few notes I thought would be relevant:

Dodge needs 13 dex
And you only have 12

Quarterstaff > Fists
This is because with your low monk level the fists wont be as awesome. Q-staff is a ton more mythal slots. And Q staff is 1d6+1.5 str mod
So with only 14 str (and I am saying go to 16) your buffed str mod will come out to 8 or 9. 1d6 + 12 versus 1d10+8 and more mythal slots!

Power Attack and Great Cleave
Your str is really not high enough where you'll get to have these blowing all day for you.

Con at 24
You really only need 21 to get the Epic DR, anything past that is kind of overkill, it comes out to 1 fort and 30 hp.
I'd rather start with lower con and dump more into strength or put 2 points into str leveling up.

With Monk to get the same AC you would with a tumble tank you'd have to max your wisdom and dex, but you are getting improved evasion from it. Its just not a good trade. As you won't have enough slots to max dex, wis, str, and con. Its too tight. What more do you gain from doing monk instead of anything else?

Another concept I'd like to get build suggestions:

The Boar Knight.

A bon-vivant peasant hero, though of higher birth. Follower of Chauntea who spends most of his days brewing, trading, eating and drinking - but is a verocious and courageous warriors when he or his are threatened.

* Must be Human
* Must be Good - Preferably Neutral Good
* Cannot be Monk, Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer
* Must have at least 12 charisma, 12 wisdom and 10 intelligence.
* Must have a build that reflects mercantile expertise (so a respectable amount of Appraise and Persuade)
* Bonus points for build choices that are thematic over optimal (such as primarily using a sickle(s), scythe, spear, javelins (darts) or bow) while still remaining playable as a PC.

Do you want to use all of the aforementioned weapons or most of them? Or just one?

If you wish to use multiply weapons you can go 28 Fighter 2 Rogue. You will have more than enough feats to effectively use two/three weapons plus meet all of your other requirements. If it is just one of the weapons I would suggest going the standard Wm/fighter/rogue (Though this one might be hard squeezing in WM with your attribute points already spread), or better yet going Fighter/Rogue/DC (Champion of Chauntea in this case).

Ill be able to throw together a build later today when I am off work depending on what you want. Overall the Fighter/Rogue/DC will perform exactly as the 28 Fighter 2 Rogue just with much better saves, you just wont have the ability to use a weapon outside your primary.

Elorathall wrote:

Another concept I'd like to get build suggestions:

The Boar Knight.

A bon-vivant peasant hero, though of higher birth. Follower of Chauntea who spends most of his days brewing, trading, eating and drinking - but is a verocious and courageous warriors when he or his are threatened.

* Must be Human
* Must be Good - Preferably Neutral Good
* Cannot be Monk, Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer
* Must have at least 12 charisma, 12 wisdom and 10 intelligence.
* Must have a build that reflects mercantile expertise (so a respectable amount of Appraise and Persuade)
* Bonus points for build choices that are thematic over optimal (such as primarily using a sickle(s), scythe, spear, javelins (darts) or bow) while still remaining playable as a PC.

You could go 21 ranger 4 fighter 5 Knight Commander or 25Rng/5KC, and go with any of the mentioned weapons, having weapon spec and favored enemies to boost your damage output. You could go with pretty much any weapon, perhaps Crossbow. I'm not quite sure how to fully lay it out, but it's an idea

Druid 25/kc 5. Take the sirrush mummy dust and reskin it to a huge dire boar. Take the boar animal companion and pig farmer job. Animal empathy a third bovine creature. That's 6 pigs, 3 that are usable in combat.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Do you want to use all of the aforementioned weapons or most of them? Or just one?

The weapons are optional so not something to focus on too much. And if you do want to take it into account, I'd stick with one ranged and one melee anyhow.

Ranger as main class seems like an interesting choice. Though I do envision the character as being more pastoral than a true woodsman, it's within the scope of the class. At this point my interests lie mainly in a any/all combination of the following classes:
* Ranger: appropriate enough for the pastoral concept, with enough flexibility and combat potential to work well as dedicated skirmisher
* Paladin or DC: for the concept of a "protector of the peasantry"
* KC: for a focus on leadership - and because I've been wanting to play a KC for a while
* Rogue or Bard: for Appraise, Bluff and Persuade

* Fighter: all-round representative of a character with some martial training, though I'm not sure I see it as its main class - especially compared to Ranger, Paladin, DC and KC
* Barbarian: works a tiny fraction better than Fighter within the concept, but as this is intended to a character that lives in Cordor/Kohlingen/Wiltun I'm not sure how appropriate it would be.

Solvaras wrote:

Druid 25/kc 5. Take the sirrush mummy dust and reskin it to a huge dire boar. Take the boar animal companion and pig farmer job. Animal empathy a third bovine creature. That's 6 pigs, 3 that are usable in combat.

That's a little more boar than I was going for. Though boar would naturally be an appropriate animal companion for a ranger build.

Elorathall wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Do you want to use all of the aforementioned weapons or most of them? Or just one?

The weapons are optional so not something to focus on too much. And if you do want to take it into account, I'd stick with one ranged and one melee anyhow.

Ranger as main class seems like an interesting choice. Though I do envision the character as being more pastoral than a true woodsman, it's within the scope of the class. At this point my interests lie mainly in a any/all combination of the following classes:
* Ranger: appropriate enough for the pastoral concept, with enough flexibility and combat potential to work well as dedicated skirmisher
* Paladin or DC: for the concept of a "protector of the peasantry"
* KC: for a focus on leadership - and because I've been wanting to play a KC for a while
* Rogue or Bard: for Appraise, Bluff and Persuade

* Fighter: all-round representative of a character with some martial training, though I'm not sure I see it as its main class - especially compared to Ranger, Paladin, DC and KC
* Barbarian: works a tiny fraction better than Fighter within the concept, but as this is intended to a character that lives in Cordor/Kohlingen/Wiltun I'm not sure how appropriate it would be.

I think something along the lines of 18 DC/2 Rogue or Bard/10 Fighter or Ranger is the way to go. Optimal wise DC/Rogue/Fighter would be ideal but any of those combinations are still quite viable. The question is is 10 Fighter still too much for you?

Edit: Also sickle/shield would be the best out of all of those weapons. Scythe only really shines if you have the WM to back it up, but once again totally viable pve wise.

Bard20 / Fighter5 / KC5

'Boar Knight' makes me think of a loud person, so a bard focus IMO. 16 Cha, 16 Str, 12 Wis, 10 the rest.
16 base Cha gives you access to all the bard spells, but requires +4 Cha gear/spell to get all the KC stuff.
Bard/KC gives you a lot of support power, Bard 20 gets Winspiration, plus self buffing and/or spontaneous healing spells.
11/4/5 pre-epic, fighter 5 on 24 for epic specialization. I would go for a greataxe or warhammer, both of which are variants of farm tools, (those are the weapons I'd grab out of the barn at least). Spear would work too, and isn't seen that often. Stats are spread too thin to do missile well, but thrown weapons would benefit from the Str focus.
With 10 Int, after the pre-reqs, maxed discipline, 25 perform (for winspiration), and your tumble dump, you have 49 skill points left for appraise/persuade/UMD (not sure how much you would consider 'respectable')
No cross classed skills, bard has everything KC needs, all classes get Disc, bard gets social skills and Tumble/UMD.
Flexible and adaptable, support character that still hits hard.
Self buffing means you should be able to solo too.

Feats

Negs:

Lack of Heal and Concentration skills. A bit skill starved in general.
Two-hander weapon means lack of shield; bard songs gives 5 AC to cover. Could carry a back-up shield as well (which could provide +8 AC at the cost of -3 AB)
Low to mid 50's AC should be average with buffs and good gear. 60+ with the back-up shield.
11 bard pre-epic 'costs' 3 AB, compared to a full BAB class. Still gets 4 attacks/rd, and Bard song gives +2 AB by level 8
Lack of bonus epic feats
Requires perform enhancing gear to reach dull Bard Song potential... but only for the extra temp HP and skill bonuses, combat skill bonuses are maxed with 25 perform +5 Cha mod.

Could replace the Fighter levels with DC, which might be more in theme.. It would cost you one feat, and access to specialization/epic specialization, but give you +2 to saves, plus a use of divine wrath for a +3 AB for a few rounds. Replace epic specialization with epic prowess for another AB, and you hit slightly more often for slightly less damage.

There's a lot of combat focus in the feats that could be replaced with other feats if desired. Bard Song/KC alone will give a significant party role, and there's enough full BAB to give you some combat clout.

Interesting. I'll definitely take it into account.

Is there any point to a full-plate ranger?

Yep. You have to be str based and commit heavily into Ranger though to see the benefits. We are talking 20+ levels which nets you Bane of Enemies and Epic Companion.

How about a rogue/fighter/KC (or rogue/paladin/KC or rogue/DC/KC) with a halberd? And is Great Cleave useful?

Great cleave is generally not worth taking unless you plan on taking Dev Crit. It's basically a beefed up version of cleave. I mean, it's entertaining if you want to OHKO a bunch of goblins, because they drop like flies, but other than that, it's not worth taking.

Elorathall wrote:

How about a rogue/fighter/KC (or rogue/paladin/KC or rogue/DC/KC) with a halberd? And is Great Cleave useful?

Rogue Fighter KC is quite viable though you end up being fighter or rogue heavy (Either 22 Fighter/5 KC/3 Rogue or 17 Rogue/8 Fighter/5 KC). Those two builds are obviously not set in stone but if you go fighter heavy I would say strength based while the rogue heavy one is definitely a dex based epic dodge build.

Paladin is also doable, but you are restricting yourself not only to the RP that comes with being a Paladin but also you are LG, not NG like you were first considering.

The Rogue/DC/KC build requires you to go at least 10 Rogue to get the BAB required to even get a second class. So you will be taking an AB hit as well being more rogue heavy than 'knightly'.

Lastly, Great Cleave is decent-okish. It fixes some of the bugs that standard cleave has that causes it not to function properly. Overall though, you don't often take down more than one monster with one hit so great cleave's biggest bonus is never used (Though if you ever hunt mobs of weaker enemies again you can giggle in glee as you great cleave through a pack of 30 of them).

On the class modifications thread, the shifter post says this: "Note that certain forms may have additional AC on top of what Shifter levels provide."

Is that information available somewhere? The spreadsheet doesn't seem to mention it.

I think that's a hold over from when certain shifter forms had bonus dodge ac depending on the form. I'm pretty sure that with the shifter overhaul(s) that dodge ac has been removed. From what I've seen that bonus ac has been replaced with the scaling shifter level ac.

Solvaras wrote:

I think that's a hold over from when certain shifter forms had bonus dodge ac depending on the form. I'm pretty sure that with the shifter overhaul(s) that dodge ac has been removed. From what I've seen that bonus ac has been replaced with the scaling shifter level ac.

Nope, Dodge AC is definitely there.

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