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Dergaii
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 30 2017, 20:35 PM 

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Location: Waffles, Beer & Chocolate

I'm wondering about the requirements needed to create magical items on Amia.
Not so much the components of a request for a magical items (those are clearly explained in the topic in the request forum) but more the requirements of the crafter creating the magical items.

My search fu found 2 topics that already touched on this topic:
  • Magical Item crafting
    This topic discussed if scrolls/magic items can be used to craft other magic items. The general consensus was that it is DM dependant and the request needs to be well executed. Serbiris however referred to the magical item crafting feats which I will mention below.
  • Creating magical items, in particular with divine means
    This topic discussed if divine magic can be used in item crafting. The general consensus was: yes. _Ts said that the item creation feats don't exist on amia and that they are substituted by the skills for the mythal system and the job system. This was not denied by anyone in the topic.


I didn't find a definitive answer in either topic on what is considered valid on Amia. While I think it will probably be decided by DM discretion in the requests (which I support), I would like to see if there is a general consensus on the matter. I'm not intending to force a ruling on the matter. I'm merely being quite selfish and want to see for which crafting my character would be eligible.

So our problem is NWN does not have the item creation feats. The question is then: how do we subsitute them?
I think we have 5 options:
  1. Characters are automatically considered to have the craft magical item feats.
  2. Characters are thought to posses the craft magical item feat if they meet the requirements for the relevant craft item feat.
  3. Characters need the scribe scroll/craft wand/brew potion feats as a substitution.
  4. The skill points and job system of the character is the substitute for the craft feats.
  5. Take a custom feat to represent the craft feats/the relevant craft feat.

1. Everyone can craft
The easiest solution: rp will decide if the crafting was done successfully. A drawback however is that technically a character with an intelligence of 8 could be making magical items.
This does not seems very logical to me.

2. Pnp requirements = feat
In pnp the difference is made between different feats related to ones caster level: (CL3) Craft wondrous item, (CL5) Craft Magic Arms and Armor, (CL9) Craft Rod, (CL12) Craft Staff; Forge Ring. This would require an investment of at least a few spell caster classes to be able to craft magical items.
This perspective remains rather inclusive since every one capable of actual magic will be able to dip into this specific rp theme.

3. NWN feat
Only characters that posses one (or all?) of the existing craft item feats are able to create magical items. This would mean wizards are the only class that gets crafting magical items by default. All other classes would at least need to invest one feat.
I believe this pushes too much exclusivity into the camp of the wizards.

4. Skill points and job system
The first is rather straightforward. Skills in craft weapon, armour and spellcraft decide if one is proficient in a certain field of expertise. This requires some effort to be put in the skills when building the character. Spellcraft does seem to be on the winning side in this system as it governs a lot of different items and all the miscellaneous knick knacks. Question: is this base skill points or with items taking into consideration?

The second part is less clear however. the job system is very broad and limited at the same time. Relvant jobs could be alchemist, arcanist, armoursmith, bowyer, engineer, fletcher, goldsmith, inventor, tailor, weaponsmith. For weapons and armour it seems rather straightforward: one job is related to one type of magical item. But is an armoursmith sufficient for making magical cloth or is this the field of tailors only. General magical items make things even more difficult: is and arcanist and an inventor equally relevant? Or can the former make existing items only?

Things can get complicated quickly but it is also the system that allows for a lot of diversity.

5. Custom feat

A suggestion I think a lot of people would dread as it has an impact on pve viability of a character, even though it would be old school d&d. While a crafter is not necessarily an adventurer but in our game it is the mix of the two that is the appealing factor. I think it would also limit the amount of players that wish to invest in magical crafting which would make it even more difficult for non spellcasters to obtain the item of their dreams. I believe the djinn involvement in the latest requests has been made specifically so that more people can do requests while not being dependent on other players who might not play at the same times.


Personally I'm a mix between 2 and 4. Where spellcasters can be considered to have the feats due the required caster levels. But the success or strength of the item can be determined by their skills and relevant jobs. Still not a hard distinction, but I think this is not needed.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 0:01 AM 

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I can remember at least one person requesting the Craft Wondrous Items feat as a RP feat, but by and large it is unnecessary. Mundane characters have been able to RP making magical weapons and arms simply through skills and a few pertinent components. Likewise, magical characters have been able to enchant items purely through magical skills. Crafting of any item is handled on a case by cast basis. Once we throw in things like incantations, which do exist in our Amian setting, it doesn't really matter. With the right know-how and skills, anyone can probably craft an item. But the emphasis there is strongly on right know-how and skills.

That being said, you must have the story and the RP to back up what you craft. I seriously doubt DMs would allow Joe Schmo with 8 Int/Wis/Cha, no crafting feats, no UMD, and no knowledge feats to simply say "I found an ancient incantation and followed the instructions." But maybe with a mixture of those skills, someone can, though the grade of what they're allowed to say they craft will heavily depend on the numbers involved. I really don't think this is a thing you could find a hard consensus on because crafting of items, RP-wise, is hugely subjective and case by case throughout our history. Our approach is more often than not holistic, compared to PnP.

In the end, will going the extra mile to have RP and skills that back up your crafting make it easier to get something passed? Most certainly. Is there a set number or rubric for what these skills and RP are? Not really. Will you be able to craft something with absolutely no pertinent skills or abilities? Not likely. So I guess my own responses would be as follows.

1. Characters aren't automatically considered to have them, because they're not needed in our setting in the first place to craft an item. But they could definitely give more weight to your RP.
2. The feats are again unnecessary in our setting, but crafting feats and skills can indeed take their place, with no set numbers given to emulate them. The final determinants are the RP and the mechanical power.
3. Feats are again unnecessary, but having these feats do back up your RP in making items. Crafting Wands might easily translate to crafting rods and staves, scribing may translate well to rune magic in inscribing magic into items, and the brewing feat may translate to other forms of consumables.
4. Jobs are usually taken into consideration in crafting or creating items, like skills and creation feats. DMs will often ask for relevant jobs.
5. See #2.

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Last edited by Dark Immolation on Tue, Jan 31 2017, 0:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
corypx
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 0:02 AM 

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I think a lot of it boils down to logic/RP and if you are able to find a way to make it work that fits the lore, they never before needed you to have feats...ect because they don't exist.

IC my character has made and animated golems before though DM RP, he also IC can make some magical objects but he's limited and its a lot harder because he has no caster levels... and in truth the RP I did to be able to do it was over the span of IRL years.

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Dergaii
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jan 31 2017, 6:49 AM 

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Joined: 01 Jun 2007
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Thanks guys! I think our holistic approach is well suited to our server culture. And it does give everyone the chance to get into crafting given they put the effort into it. I do have the tendency to overcategorise things in fixed procedures.

What is the role of permanency in crafting however? Is this a standard step in each magical item? It is that only necessary when spells are cast on people or on top of objects/surfaces and not when imbued into the material of the item itself?


 
      
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