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Elorathall
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 10 2014, 16:02 PM 

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Rule-wise it is possible for divine casters to create new spells in the same way that arcane casters do (AFAIK), but how does this work RPwise? Canon states that divine casters get access to all spells directly from their respective deity, which makes the development of new 'prayers' somewhat vague. For example, an evoker wizard could try and create a "supercharged" version of fireball by studying its workings and improving certain properties (most likely at the expense of others such as higher spellcasting requirements/higher spell level).

But how would this process work for a cleric (even one who could cast fireball trough domain spells)? I don't imagine they could just pray for a more powerful fireball spell - aside from the application of metamagic which could be interpreted as such for a cleric.

Does anyone have any RP examples to build on for this process?

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 10 2014, 16:22 PM 

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It ties in with how you perceive magic, and how it relates to physical reality, imagination, and the rules or patterns of being. I could give you examples, but I think the appropriate solution is always character-specific. It must follow naturally from the way he learns, prepares and casts his spells, and what he believes about their nature, origin and function. A learned priest of Azuth would go about it very differently than a primitive orc shaman.

I do think they could just pray for a more powerful fireball, but that isn't very imaginative.

One point to consider is that gods don't just harness magical energy and shape it how they will to give to mortals. They, too, are subject to the rules of their magical paradigm and the restrictions of the Weave. So whatever spell they grant in answer to your prayer must exist. What that implies is that if your prayer for a new, more powerful spell is answered, the god him/herself must have developed it, or had someone else do it. This being the case, it can make sense for a high-Spellcraft priest of Azuth to develop the theoretical model of a new spell much like a wizard would, and offer it to the deity as a sacrifice/gift. Now that the pattern of the spell exists in the Weave and the god knows it, you can access it through prayer.

Other priests might base their spellcasting on prayers, ancient lore, symbolic representation, ritualistic manipulation of components and space, or the sheer power of will and faith. Those are some styles that I can think of, at least.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 10 2014, 16:28 PM 

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Here's one example.

Honestly, I think that depending on the personality of the deity involved, acquiring a new divine spell could well be far easier than acquiring a new arcane spell. Unlike a wizard, a cleric isn't the source of her own spells. She doesn't necessarily have to understand how they work; she just has to have faith that they will. If she can successfully make the case to her deity that, in order to carry out divine will, she's in need of a certain tool which she isn't currently receiving, and if you can portray the need and the prayer convincingly, then for some deities anyway, that's as deep as you need to go.

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Mercedes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 10 2014, 16:50 PM 

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All FR source material I have found supports what has been said, that it would be up to the deity in the end to makethe spell for you, even if it wwas originally your idea. From what I have read, divine casters do not touch and shape the weave like arcanists but are imprinted with preset instructions from their deity on how to make something out of the magic that pervades everything. I always see divine casters as having no deep knowledge as to how their spells work, instead operating on faith. Aside from say... Mystran clerics, whom I assume multi class as wizard more commonly then others.


 
      
The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 10 2014, 17:53 PM 

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While there might not be the same "Creation" aspect of the spell from the actual mechanics of the spell that a wizard might do, there is a TON of room open for creation from a clerical side of things, I find that people often downplay or overlook how much detail and attention clerics will often put into their prayers and offerings and the like.

Clerics often do things like their prayers to their deity at a very particular time or in a certain manner and so there is often a lot of cool "ritual" stuff that can be done. So for example maybe I have a cleric of Lathander and I come up with the idea of wanting a spell that focuses on light but particularity as a singular intense beam of light to pierce through enemies of the light. Well then my cleric would probably think up a ritual and specific prayer so that when next praying for spells perhaps this particular spell he prays for while surrounded by crystals, setup to specifically intensify the first rays of the light of dawn and shine the singular intense beam in front of him as he asks for spells.

That example is just off the top of my head but just because a deity might technically be coming up with the mechanics of the spell instead of your character is no reason to make it any less intricate or awesome, if anything I personally think there is far more room to do cool stuff through the ritual side of things.


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 10 2014, 18:35 PM 

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I don't think anything solid can be said about where the magic of clerics or wizards "comes from". All we know is that it's filtered through the Weave (or a manifestation of it; suit yourself), and that deities participate in clerical magic - whether as batteries, intermediaries or puppet masters is really open to imagination.

If you subscribed to a metaphysics that made magic simply an alternative organisation of the patterns that shape (or are) reality, and if you believed all it takes to change reality is an exercise of imagination (which certainly seems to be the case in the planes), along with a trigger to give it the oomph needed to break through the resistance of "natural" patterns, then that trigger could very well be the two-way street of faith-energy between you and your god. The cleric need not be a passive recipient of divine spells; he could very well be the author of his magic like any sorcerer or wizard. The difference would be that sorcerers draw their power from something supernatural that is natural to them, wizards have mastered specific, time-legitimized combinations of movement, sound and matter, and clerics draw on the essence and approval of their god. All are principally the same, however: they shape reality by applying alternate patterns, typically with their intellect or imagination, the mind being the most suitable human faculty to interact with the structures underlying reality - though immanent body magic is certainly a possibility. What separates them from the average Joe who has a hard time levitating is that they have some additional source of juice to empower their intentions. In theory, though, Joe has just the same potential to work "magic" as anyone else, whether it's psionics, monk abilities, shapeshifting, shadowdancing, arcane or divine spells, or whatever. It's just that some roads seem easier than others.

That is an IC theory, and one that can useful to make sense of things. I do not mean to say you should accept it; indeed, I wouldn't want you to adopt all of Joon's theorizing from an OOC forum post. But it's an example to show that you can think of possibilities and explanations beyond the most basic and obvious.


On another note: Spellcraft is a clerical class skill, and many of them max it. So while it's certainly true you don't need to know magical theory to be a priest, it's hardly extraordinary to find experts of clerical spell theory.

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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
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