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My character is an astronomer so i was wondering if i could use lore from the spelljammer book to describe his research? (known stars in the sky , the solar system , constellations ,etc etc not anything related to actually what lies on those planets).

Here's a thread where I asked for similar stuff.

That's neat but i'd prefer a DM answer to wheter or not spelljammer (or parts of it) can be considered canon.. more meat and bones than just 4 charts. =)

Any IC knowledge is really as per the link Liz provided. As Amia's setting lacks Spelljammers, nothing is truly definitive about each celestial body from the IC perspective.

I believe the Sun is commonly called Lathander across Faerun, but I could be mistaken.

We've had at least one Spelljammer event in the past, and the settings canonically connect (like every other D&D setting, really). But I am not sure if the book actually has a section on what's visible from Toril? And more recent material trumps it if they contradict, anyhow.

Did you read the section in the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting? It says a little about the moon and stars, at least. I don't think it's very thorough.

IronAngel wrote:

We've had at least one Spelljammer event in the past...

Be that as it may, it has been the stance of the staff since before I started even that Spelljammer is not supported on Amia.

As far as practical purposes go, it's not as if planets and stars change whether we have spaceships or not. If Realmspace, the FR Spelljammer book, is not contradicted by FRCS and gives additional information about the solar system, there's no reason to disbelieve it. I don't see what you'd do with the core Spelljammer book, though.

Glim wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

We've had at least one Spelljammer event in the past...

Be that as it may, it has been the stance of the staff since before I started even that Spelljammer is not supported on Amia.

That's not really true. A forum search confirmed what I suspected: it was mostly years of Tormak disliking the setting (which is fair, though there's a camp coolness to it), me pointing out that it is part of the setting whether we like it or not, and Tormak in March 2012 coming up with the arbitrary statement that "We don't use Spelljammer" contrary to the setting we've chosen to play and the stories of previous DMs and players.

Not that we should really incorporate it into plots anymore. I don't really see the benefit; it's not a vey fleshed-out aspect of the world. But contradicting canon is always bad and only to be done in extreme circumstances. Arbitrarily cutting something that doesn't even affect anything is bad practice. It's not just the Spelljammer books we're talking about; it's embedded into the best sourcebooks available on the setting, namely Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, Elves of Evermeet and Netheril: Empire of Magic. Books I'm sure most of us have at least skimmed and can agree are very high quality.

This is all fairly academic since nobody has a ship on Amia. But we cannot give up the principle that everything about official lore is a priori Amian canon unless there's a specific DM story or server policy reason for changing it. It undermines all your efforts for consistency.

IronAngel wrote:

A forum search confirmed what I suspected:

You don't have access to all forums to search from.

I do to all the relevant ones. The only authority on lore is the R&L forum, really. We as players need not acknowledge anything not posted there when we make up our character stories.

Technicalities aside, you know I'm still right.

Pretty sure the "not supported on Amia" isn't a statement that says Spelljammer doesn't exist in Amia, just a statement that any player wanting to see any further intrusion of the spelljammer setting, ideas, and concepts isn't likely to see them supported by the DM Team, as in given attention. Sort of like how we choose to ignore the fact that the island is currently not geographically large enough to support a mountain as high as it has.

Or, alternatively, that the Skull Crags are not mountains, but just a big ol' hill that snows on top.

Fair enough. But given the telescopes and the astronomer job, as well as divination and possibly the obscure records of Spelljammers of previous centuries, I don't see why the number of planets in Toril's sphere as well as their approximate size and type could not be known/discovered. Mind you, I have not compared the relevant books because I don't have access right now (Realmspace and 3e FRCS, as far as I can think of), but if there is no contradiction and the former contains some information not found in the latter, then it ought to be fair game to research on Amia.

I may have been unduly contentious, but I don't think the lore forum is the place for one-liner executive rebuttals of informative posts.

Amia doesnt support Spelljammer, now?

I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me.

In seriousness, I like the setting and, as Iron said, I assumed it was supported due to past events. If it is not, it should really be stated somewhere in Varia, because there are a few older characters and players that have been led to believe otherwise.

I personally don't see the harm in it. We allow characters from Sigil, who could very well have come from or traveled to basically anywhere in the D&D multiverse. Planets are mundane in comparison.

Yossburger's interpretation is where I'm at. It is sort of there in the background, but players need to explore it more for us to say things are just as they are said to be in our setting. Spelljammer is cool, but like it has been said, not the most fleshed out thing in all the world. Basically it says there are these creatures on these planets, and they like blank and dont like blank. At least from what I recall, most of the time is spent explaining hulls and how they work and their stats, which doenst impact us much as again, not that many spelljamming vessels in our neck of the woods.

That being said... anyone up for grabbing a hull and amassing a motley crew to explore the heavens? We need a poonhound Cormyrite, a logical moon elf, a flamboyant Kara-turan, a sexy Chultan, and a cleric named Bones.

Yoss pretty much summed it up.

One quick question for glim:

If my astronomer's RP involvement could result in a discovery of the planets in the solar system the world is apart of then i can safetly assume that the particular bits of spelljammer involved are in?

FYI, I checked the FRCS geography section. It only talks about Selûne, the Tears of Selûne (asteroid belt), and the Dawn Heralds and Five Wanderers (or smth) stars. Nothing about the other planets.

Yes but if we had a spelljammer event in the past then they used that lore...

Eizendur wrote:

Yes but if we had a spelljammer event in the past then they used that lore...

C'mon, man! "No" means "no". This... is how world run.

IronAngel wrote:

FYI, I checked the FRCS geography section. It only talks about Selûne, the Tears of Selûne (asteroid belt), and the Dawn Heralds and Five Wanderers (or smth) stars. Nothing about the other planets.

This would be the extent of what is "known" in the setting then. Anything beyond that would be entirely in the realm of DM events, but highly unlikely even in that case.

Q't'ulu wrote:

C'mon, man! "No" means "no". This... is how world run.

Explain me to where exactly no was said - from what i understand this simply has to be approved before hand by the DMs as part of roleplay/events/both.

P.S.: The world also follows the old saying of "silence is golden" that is if you have nothing useful to add to a discussion doing so anyway reflects poorly on you and gives off a heavy scent of eau-de-troll.

Glim wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

We've had at least one Spelljammer event in the past...

Be that as it may, it has been the stance of the staff since before I started even that Spelljammer is not supported on Amia.

There was your no.

Glim wrote:

no.

Thank you!

You're contradicting yourself, Glim. You already agreed to what Yossarin said, and in no way does his post imply the planets, readily observable by the ASTRONOMER JOB and TELESCOPES placed in our module would magically disappear because you choose to downplay the space ships part of our setting (also mentioned in that FRCS geography section I referred to). Are you suggesting there are exactly seven stars, one moon and a few asteroids on the night sky, to the knowledge of everyone outside of DM events?

The correct conclusion would be that since FRCS doesn't contradict any Realmspace information about the planets, the older canon lore stands. The former's very silence about the planets lends authority to the latter on the topic.

Can a lore DM, someone who's read the relevant material, give further information on how the planets described in Realmspace might appear different in our Amiaverse?

To be frank, if the planet is reddish according to Spelljammer, and could reasonably be seen from the northern hemisphere of Abeir-Toril, then -possibly- you -might- see a bright red dot when scanning with a telescope and could surmise it is X location in Spelljammer. Just run it past us.

The telescopes we have on Amia are rather simple in nature and last I looked at the FRCS map it did not boast any telescope-ridden observatories where you could find much better magnification. Who knows, that may just inspire some inventors on the island.

Here is an experiment to prove the point:
•Grab a typical telescope you can get from the WTTW store.
•Set it up and look at the stars! Can you name all the ones not in constellations?
•Can you see any planets?
(Yes? Was it because it has a lot of rings? What do they look like with such weak magnification?)
(No? Was the telescope just not powerful enough to get more than just colored dots?)

DustSpray101 wrote:

To be frank, if the planet is reddish according to Spelljammer, and could reasonably be seen from the northern hemisphere of Abeir-Toril, then -possibly- you -might- see a bright red dot when scanning with a telescope and could surmise it is X location in Spelljammer. Just run it past us.

The telescopes we have on Amia are rather simple in nature and last I looked at the FRCS map I did not boast any telescope-ridden observatories where you could find much better magnification. Who knows, that may just inspire some inventors on the island.

Here is an experiment to prove the point:
•Grab a typical telescope you can get from the WTTW store.
•Set it up and look at the stars! Can you name all the ones not in constellations?
•Can you see any planets?
(Yes? Was it because it has a lot of rings? What do they look like with such weak magnification?)
(No? Was the telescope just not powerful enough to get more than just colored dots?)

I suppose, telescopes in FR very close to one of Galileo. Such base is enough to use FRCS materials AND not expand to Spelljammer (which is banned).

IronAngel wrote:

...readily observable by the ASTRONOMER JOB and TELESCOPES placed in our module...

As Dusty has pointed out, they probably aren't, beyond what is set down in the FRCS. Unless I misinterpret his meaning in which case he can slap me upside the head for putting words in his mouth.

IronAngel wrote:

Are you suggesting there are exactly seven stars, one moon and a few asteroids on the night sky, to the knowledge of everyone outside of DM events?

No, that would be asinine. What I'm stating is that those are the known ones, as far as Amia is concerned. If one of your characters ICly wants to make up names for constellations not already outlined, or dream of what those other places might be like, be my guest. It'll follow the same stipulations of any other player-generated lore on the server.

IronAngel wrote:

The correct conclusion would be that since FRCS doesn't contradict any Realmspace information about the planets, the older canon lore stands. The former's very silence about the planets lends authority to the latter on the topic.

Has it crossed your mind that we, as DMs who do occasionally do things outside of canon lore, might want to make up our own stuff since we've decided not to include Spelljammer as a part of our setting? The absence of certain lore in the setting and source material we've chosen does not automatically equate to adopting anything and everything that fills in the gaps without contradiction. Nor should it.

We have telescopes in game, plain and simple, but I am simply pointing out that they aren't anywhere close to being the Hubble nor is FR Astronomy advanced to a point of them naming every star/feature in the night sky not associated with a constellation.

Q't'ulu wrote:

I suppose, telescopes in FR very close to one of Galileo. Such base is enough to use FRCS materials AND not expand to Spelljammer (which is banned).

Close, yup. Not much better than an oversized spyglass aimed at the sky.

Facts are facts. We do have space-traveling in our setting, now matter how much you want to claim to the contrary, in core FR books (and not just in Spellajammer). We do have planets in the system. We do have wizards who can put on a Crab Helmet, cast Energy Buffer and Fly, and take their magical telescope to the edge of the atmosphere or further into space. That's not even counting the various divination spells that could easily uncover these facts.

You already consented that Spelljammer-elements (and other space-travel elements in core FR books) aren't retconned, they're just not "supported" - that is to say, you probably won't run DM events around space ships or approve player requests to build their own. It does not mean that they are magically unknown or unexistant. That's just a lazy way of saying you haven't thought about it.

You can make up new lore once you know everything written, Glim. You can't arbitrarily dismiss canon material because you haven't bothered to read it and see if it works. It's painfully obvious that nobody in this topic actually has Realmspace handy - I don't, because time and again I've provided the team with lore that nobody's bothered to follow up on, and because it's no longer my job to find out.

But it is your job. Not having the book is no excuse. Get it and do the research.

IronAngel wrote:

Facts are facts.

What is Hegel said about facts?

IronAngel wrote:

You can make up new lore once you know everything written, Glim. You can't arbitrarily dismiss canon material because you haven't bothered to read it and see if it works. It's painfully obvious that nobody in this topic actually has Realmspace handy - I don't, because time and again I've provided the team with lore that nobody's bothered to follow up on, and because it's no longer my job to find out.

But it is your job. Not having the book is no excuse. Get it and do the research.

Iron, bad thing -- they _can_ arbitrarily dissmiss anything. Just because they did not like it. Sad, but true. No logic, no reason will amend. And you know it.

Technically, they could say damn well anything and make us adhere to it, but it wouldn't be right or true. And we all know that, DMs and players. So they won't. Because at the end of the day, with enough badgering, I trust that they are dedicated to the integrity and quality of our setting. If I didn't believe that, why would I bother? That's why there's a lore forum, and DMs specialized in lore maintenance. My point isn't that they can't make up lore to suit their needs; it's that they must not do it willy-nilly, without the relevant information.

Right now there's a crude blanket answer that has been inconsistently interpreted in the course of a single thread. OK, so that's where we start: we don't want to incorporate space ship stories into Amia any further. Now, the problem is that they're already integrated into our setting. What remains is to look into the material, actually pick up the books and read, and formulate a subtle, detailed interpretation that considers all aspects of the issue and preserves as much as possible while dealing with the specific problems we want to solve.

I can think of a dozen ways to exclude further space ship intrusion into Amia more subtle than throwing books out the window, ignoring events and character stories that have transpired, editing out passages in central FR books (like the FRCS, whose night sky section starts with references to space ships), and ignoring perfectly good mundane lore on planets that just happens to be presented together with Spelljammer campaign material.

Maybe you just, I don't know, don't run Spelljammer events, and make Spelljamming PCs require a request? Maybe, since the attack of Kymil Nimesin on Evermeet and the elven crusade to the mainland, the island has let its space program fall to the wayside and thus it won't become a factor in plots? You can achieve everything you want at no cost to setting integrity. Unless, of course, the problem is that you don't actually want to read the books and see what's in them. Which is why you designated dedicated lore DMs whose primary job is to maintain server lore consistency.

There is no "hard line" on this Iron, not like you're looking for. And there really won't be. You have your answer.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Close, yup. Not much better than an oversized spyglass aimed at the sky.

This answer reeks of simply handwaving the profession away.

Also Galileo's telescope was far superior than a "spyglass aimed at the sky"

http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_6.html

Quote:

Galileo's Telescope

Galileo invented many mechanical devices other than the pump, such as the hydrostatic balance. But perhaps his most famous invention was the telescope. Galileo made his first telescope in 1609, modeled after telescopes produced in other parts of Europe that could magnify objects three times. He created a telescope later that same year that could magnify objects twenty times. With this telescope, he was able to look at the moon, discover the four satellites of Jupiter, observe a supernova, verify the phases of Venus, and discover sunspots. His discoveries proved the Copernican system which states that the earth and other planets revolve around the sun. Prior to the Copernican system, it was held that the universe was geocentric, meaning the sun revolved around the earth.

That sounds pretty impressive for me given the time he did it.

Well, I asked for a lore DM to tell us the number and type of planets in Amia's solar system, and how they might differ from the original canon presented in Realmspace. You're a developer who hasn't cited a single source in this discussion, or really contributed any new information, so how exactly do I have my answer?

If you change lore (which, as we have established, should only happen extremely rarely with very pressing reasons), then we're entitled to know exactly how, and what you've replaced. You can't just go around saying "This lore isn't valid, but we're not going to tell you what is." Of course the combined knowledge of the Realms is more than the snippet in FRCS, and arguing otherwise is indeed asinine. It's not like everyone on the island goes around entirely ignorant of the centuries of astronomy, divination, magical exploration and folk tales, just because the FRCS happens to name seven stars. Let's put it this way: if my character was to cast a Commune and ask Oghma how many planets the solar system has (something that must have been done at some point), what answer would he receive? Clearly this information can be acquired IC, so you need to know it OOC.

You have your lore-writers, hopefully recruited for their knowledge of the setting and literary merit; can't they buy/download the relevant books and propose an educated answer? If you don't want it to be a straight answer, then an IC article might work. It should be a nice task for one or two nights. A quick write-up to fill in some lore is much more effective than an unproductive bureaucratic arm-wrestling that is just going to leave every player who doesn't happen to read this topic confused as to what lore is valid and what isn't.

I just don't see why, again, it needs to be so difficult to get a simple answer to a simple question. This has become a trend lately. Your lore DMs should be jumping at the chance to flesh the world out with cool snippets of canon mixed with creativity; writing a world is supposed to be fun.

Re: telescopes. Do consider that any mechanical telescope could/would be enchanted with something like Clairvoyance to increase its magnification possibly several times over. (A better-suited spell should be easy for a high-level wizard astronomer to develop.) Space travel, in canon D&D if not on Amia, is more advanced than in the real world thanks to magic. The same goes for many other things. To suggest a culture capable of rebuilding a city overnight with a musical instrument and determining blood types couldn't detect and roughly calculate the distances of planets in its own crystal sphere isn't credible.

@ Telescopes:
No handwaving at all. It wasn't super superior to a spyglass. Have you looked at Galileo's telescope's mechanics? Both are simple lens-only refracting Monoculars. I stand by the observation of: Spyglass :arrow:

Sky. It led to better things, but FR doesn't have them yet. Like I said earlier, maybe some fun things for inventor/astronomers in game to work on? How is this not satisfying?

@ Iron:
Facts:

DM Team Consistency:
TormakSaber wrote:
DerkDerkistan wrote:
The elves have been fascinated with the stars for millenia. They know that the constellations move in the sky during different times of the year (and I believe they even call individual constellations something different based on time of year though I can't remember where I read that/got that idea from). They also have superstitions about when certain things appear in the sky.

Here is my least favorite bit of elven lore:

Vhoori Durothil rescued a space-traveling elf and learned how to build spaceships, but Evermeet doesn't go into space. They keep their flying ships hidden and use them only in extreme emergencies to defend the island. Most elves on Evermeet don't even know they exist.

We don't use Spelljammer.

We don't use Spelljammer.
We control NPCs:
IronAngel wrote:
We do have wizards who can put on a Crab Helmet, cast Energy Buffer and Fly, and take their magical telescope to the edge of the atmosphere or further into space. That's not even counting the various divination spells that could easily uncover these facts.

No. Nope. Nada. Ne. Voch'. Bù. Nej. Nee. Do you need us to say it in more languages as I thought we all decided English was the main one we use? None have done so (and we have little desire to have them do it, honestly) so any public/common information of such nature is nill.
If a Spelljammer ever visited Amia, logs and public awe of its passing have long since subsided. They're too busy fighting for their lives these days to give 2 hoots, so asking them yields few results other than: "Oh man that thing was Majestic! No idea how it worked..." Also, no one dropped off the Captain's Log so any public/common information is nill.

I've already proven you wrong and now you're just embarrassing yourself.

Can't a competent lore DM do the research and comment here? Do you even have anyone who can handle the job, anymore? This is like the fourth time in in recent years the team lets us down sorely due to personal pride or stubbornness. (Yes, I see the irony in that, but the difference is equally obvious.)

The fact of the matter is that Amia is indeed based on the Forgotten Realms setting, but it is not the Forgotten Realms setting. Never has been any never will. We do follow the setting details as much as possible, both to avoid confusion for players and DMs alike and because it's good to have an established baseline to work from, but at the end of the day Amia is Amia. There is quite a lot of "homebrew lore" on Amia, events that have altered the history, geo-political environment and even physical geography of the main FR setting that never actually happened in FR, or has altered some of the established lore from that setting.

The trouble that you keep having with these sorts of threads Iron is that you (being the scholarly type that you are) seem to be looking for hard, definitive lines in the sand. But there won't always be, that's the plain and simple truth.

All DMs are lore DMs, of their respective areas of expertise; things have changed since you were on staff in that regard I would imagine. I've read through parts of the FRCS as well, not the parts that mention planets and "space ships" but parts relevant to what I work on as a DM as well as a Developer. And since you touched on it, yes, I am a DM, not just a designer.

If one of the other DMs who has read the pertinent bits that you're referring to wants to comment here, that's great. But the staff collectively decides what lore is applicable in Amia, it's a team effort. Just because I'm the one that happened by the thread to provide that decision from the staff as a whole, as I do with a lot of threads since I'm one of the more active presences on the forums these days, doesn't make it any less valid if I haven't read the material myself.

Some of my answers have been much less detailed, because frankly my time is better spent working on the module at present than getting into big, drawn out discussions about things that the staff have already made a decision on, one that isn't going to change.

While the staff does make every effort to note changes in "established Forgotten Realms lore" as often as possible, it's unrealistic to expect us, on a volunteer basis, to write essay after essay, or read every single sourcebook to find every single discrepancy, in a system that probably spans a good hundred or so books by the time you take into account all the "fringe" content. It's not happening. Even if it did happen, it would mean we'd have no time to run events or work on the module, we'd just be reading and writing for the next year. That's why we have the established stance that players can largely RP any IC "knowledge" they want PC to PC, and when it comes to DM interaction we'll correct as needed. The best policy has always been "when in doubt, ask" as the original poster did here, and an answer was rendered. Any further lore should be discovered through RP.

Glim, I understand and respect that. But if you don't have any substantial homebrew lore to provide at this point (and homebrew I'm fine with; I wrote pages of it for shadow elves, snow elves, paladins and Salandra because it was requested), then why do you need to insist that there is no lore and we can't use a simple canon tidbit such as the NUMBER OF PLANETS IN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM from a source that just happens to also have space ships? Why do we have to pretend our characters are blind imbeciles until such a time someone gets around to writing a proper article about it? I don't see the reason for it.

What gets me riled up here is that almost every DM reply has been of an executive/legislative nature, instead of providing actual lore or bouncing creative ideas. If not a single DM can be bothered even to speculate whether the solar system presented in Realmspace could apply to Amia, why is the forum even called "Lore" rather than "Rulings"?

Better yet: how about Eizendur, interested as he is in the subject, get a hold of the relevant books and write a proper article with citations for the DMs to evaluate? If the team thinks it's appropriate, they can approve it as, if not canon, then at least arising from empirical observations of our canon setting. Player gets to have a hand in making lore, DMs get to control the flow of information, and the final product is still IC. Everybody wins.

IronAngel wrote:

I've already proven you wrong and now you're just embarrassing yourself.

Can't a competent lore DM do the research and comment here? Do you even have anyone who can handle the job, anymore? This is like the fourth time in in recent years the team lets us down sorely due to personal pride or stubbornness. (Yes, I see the irony in that, but the difference is equally obvious.)

Using the search feature, I found the team's stance. We stand by it everywhere in the public forums where Spelljammer has been asked to be taken seriously and that answer remains a steadfast: "No."

You asked for consistency, but as it wasn't the answer you wanted, we're stubborn and wrong. Evidently this makes us failures and sore let downs. :roll:

Here, I'll get right on that feeling embarrassed.

Now after attempting to insult us, you are instead bargaining to get us to see things your way.

Irony indeed.

We're not even talking about spelljamming or the Spelljammer setting. We're talking about planets. Why do you insist on making this about bureucracy instead of lore? Core FR products, like the FRCS, mention space ships, and the Spelljammer product Realmspace details the solar system. The issues of space travel, of planets, and of settings are three different things not to be confused. Take what you like, play down the rest.

And I already sketched the history of the setting on Amia. The only definitive stance was Tormak's as late as March 2012, which was in conflict with previous comments and the general line, and did not come from a credible source to begin with. In this very topic, Glim already confirmed Yossarin's interpretation: that Spelljammer is canon but not actively used. Then he backed out of it.

The reasonable and proper consensus you should walk away with is this:

Yossarin wrote:

Pretty sure the "not supported on Amia" isn't a statement that says Spelljammer doesn't exist in Amia, just a statement that any player wanting to see any further intrusion of the spelljammer setting, ideas, and concepts isn't likely to see them supported by the DM Team, as in given attention.

Glim wrote:

Yoss pretty much summed it up.

That leaves history intact. It leaves the stories of people in the sky, a vivid part of Faerûnian folklore, and it gives us access to the only source (as far as I'm aware) that also details mundane facts about the solar system quite independent of any space ship adventures. You can argue that this is not the ideal solution. I welcome criticism. But you have not even attempted.

DustSpray101 wrote:

@ Telescopes:
No handwaving at all. It wasn't super superior to a spyglass. Have you looked at Galileo's telescope's mechanics? Both are simple lens-only refracting Monoculars. I stand by the observation of: Spyglass :arrow:

Sky. It led to better things, but FR doesn't have them yet. Like I said earlier, maybe some fun things for inventor/astronomers in game to work on? How is this not satisfying?

http://youdecide.hubblesite.org/resourc ... /page2.php

Quote:

The device, called a spyglass, was used to magnify distant objects on Earth. As soon as Galileo learned about the device, he built one and set about improving it, creating the first refracting telescope. The primary lens was convex, and the second lens, the eyepiece, was concave. Then he developed techniques for grinding and polishing the lenses and used math to calculate the distance between the lenses that would create the clearest images.

Galileo figured out that a greater distance between the lenses would let him see close objects more clearly, and that a shorter distance between the lenses would let him see faraway objects better. He also placed his refracting telescope on a stand, so he didn’t have to worry about his hands shaking while he made his observations.

The telescope also had a chromatic aberration. Different colors of light focus at different points when they pass through a glass lens. This causes a fringe of color to appear around bright objects.

One would not observe a supernova with an average spyglass.

Quote:

Like I said earlier, maybe some fun things for inventor/astronomers in game to work on? How is this not satisfying?

Elaborate. (it seems to me that having the primary lore source axed hardly leaves any room for astronomers ingame.. unless we're talking homebrewing the lore?)

IronAngel wrote:

Better yet: how about Eizendur, interested as he is in the subject, get a hold of the relevant books and write a proper article with citations for the DMs to evaluate? If the team thinks it's appropriate, they can approve it as, if not canon, then at least arising from empirical observations of our canon setting. Player gets to have a hand in making lore, DMs get to control the flow of information, and the final product is still IC. Everybody wins.

I was coming to this thread to suggest specifically this. It seems the most sensible thing to do under the circumstances. And if revealing what lore he has plays too much of a hand about his IC motivations for wanting to know, well, he's also welcome to PM it to a DM, too, to be reviewed.

If such would suit the DM's i would be willing to take up the mantle of doing this.

At the risk of seeming self-serving, I'd encourage you to take a closer look at the Candlekeep page I linked to in the thread I linked to above, especially if you're going to write up an awesome astronomical survey, which I totally think you should do. There's a lot more info than just four charts, and much of it is from canonical sources other than Spelljammer.

Let us first patiently await DM response.

But as for your link are the following canon in amia?

Quote:

NOTE: The planets and the Galleon and Color Spray Nebulae were first described in the accessory SJR2 Realmspace. All spelljamming references have been removed from their entries.

· NOTE2: I seem to remember a couple Realms-constellations appearing in a TSR product, but I can't find them to save my life. If anyone can find them (or let me know if they even exist), please let me know.

· NOTE3: All stars marked with an asterisk (*) are from these TSR supplements: FR13 Anauroch, FR5 Savage Frontier, and the novel Elfshadow. Some of them have been slightly modified from their original descriptions

Liz wrote:

At the risk of seeming self-serving, I'd encourage you to take a closer look at the Candlekeep page I linked to in the thread I linked to above, especially if you're going to write up an awesome astronomical survey, which I totally think you should do. There's a lot more info than just four charts, and much of it is from canonical sources other than Spelljammer.

Have you identified sources other than Realmspace, Savage Frontiers, Anauroch or Elfshadow? I'm not sure if those not marked by anything are his homebrew or taken from some unnamed source that's too obvious to name. Either way, good stuff. It seems to predate the 3e FRCS, though, since it makes no mention of the features described there. Combined, even if you don't use the possibly homebrew stuff (which you could, I suppose), they make up a pretty decent list.

Eizen: the supplements in Note 3 are safely canon. Note 1, Realmspace, is the Spelljammer book concerning Forgotten Realms' sphere. Which IMO you should not ignore if you intend to propose lore, but you ought to ignore the Spelljamming references and just deal with them as they appear to Toril. It seems that only four of the planets are visible to Toril normally. You'll have to verify that from the book itself; it might be the author's idea.

I haven't found any further sources, no. I originally asked the question when I was considering having a character take Astronomer ranks; that character has since gone a different way and I've not done any more research.

I do kind of wish the Candlekeep page was a bit more extensively sourced, at least to the point of citing which references come from which book. Seems like a bit much to hope for, though.

Eizendur wrote:

Quote:

The device, called a spyglass, was used to magnify distant objects on Earth. As soon as Galileo learned about the device, he built one and set about improving it, creating the first refracting telescope. The primary lens was convex, and the second lens, the eyepiece, was concave. Then he developed techniques for grinding and polishing the lenses and used math to calculate the distance between the lenses that would create the clearest images.

Galileo figured out that a greater distance between the lenses would let him see close objects more clearly, and that a shorter distance between the lenses would let him see faraway objects better. He also placed his refracting telescope on a stand, so he didn’t have to worry about his hands shaking while he made his observations.

The telescope also had a chromatic aberration. Different colors of light focus at different points when they pass through a glass lens. This causes a fringe of color to appear around bright objects.

One would not observe a supernova with an average spyglass.

ORLY? SN1054 and SN185, as examples. History of supernova observation

Eizendur wrote:

Elaborate. (it seems to me that having the primary lore source axed hardly leaves any room for astronomers ingame.. unless we're talking homebrewing the lore?)

You get to be a pioneer! How is that not exciting if science floats your character's boat?

If you want to elaborate on what exists, it can be done ICly with oversight from any one of us on the team. OOCly, you've gotten the answer of what exists to the standard character's knowledge and what lore is deemed acceptable and that should be plenty to get you rolling. Time to pave the way in game!

DustSpray101 wrote:

Eizendur wrote:

Elaborate. (it seems to me that having the primary lore source axed hardly leaves any room for astronomers ingame.. unless we're talking homebrewing the lore?)

You get to be a pioneer! How is that not exciting if science floats your character's boat?

If you want to elaborate on what exists, it can be done ICly with oversight from any one of us on the team. OOCly, you've gotten the answer of what exists to the standard character's knowledge and what lore is deemed acceptable and that should be plenty to get you rolling. Time to pave the way in game!

This is precisely the route to take.

I'll get on it then.

Astronomy lore?

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