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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 02 2013, 5:56 AM 

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So I've decided to finally get around to compling whatever information I can on the class, both mechanically and lore wise. From what I can see, there is literally no real information on what blackguards are other than them being "referred to as anti paladins by some" and "serving the dark gods". So I'm going to start off with a few questions as to what the class is and how it works on Amia since D&D is vague about it.

What is the role of a blackguard by its very definition?
What are the requirements of becoming a blackguard?
How does one go about becoming a blackguard?
Does this process require a pact with the darker powers?
Do these powers have to be gods, or can they simply be powerful outsiders?
Are blackguards bound by faith, pact, or some other means to adhere to any specific code of connduct?
Is the blackguard explicitly a divine class?

As to the last question, I think it is impotant mainly because we need to thoroughly establish what the Blackguard is in all respects. They could be black magic users who are taught their arts, Orgol and the demon in the abyss teaching powers to Blackguards serves as a good example. Clerics and such do not need such training because their magic comes through faith.

I will also be compling a list of rule books containing Blackguard information including spells and what not. And last but not least, any examples of Blackguards in the Forgotten Realms either through novels or plain old D&D mechanics would be nice. I will be looking for a few of those myself, but am not as strong on FR lore as some of you guys.

Here's hoping this thread really adds a lot to what I feel is the most interesting class in D&D.

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spellhowler
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 02 2013, 8:31 AM 



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I think the Anti-Paladin thing sort of sums it up. Though I wouldn't want to limit creativity through my own sense of RP morality (Rogue lvls on a Paladin you twink bastards), I have always like making BG's LE, a divine champion of some evil deity. I guess were it a CE deity that would work as well. Giving the BG sort of a Knights Code to live by has always been my bag. He would stand up for the weak, he would follow "Gentleman's" rules of combat (IE no KD) as killing a helpless foe would do him less credit. He lives his life in service to his God/Goddess and is a selfless warrior. By following said code he would have the respect of the knights of the opposite end of the spectrum despite alignment differences as they are both honorable. Yeah something like that is how I like to play..though I'm not sure how well that would work here as most of the time I see LG "Knight" type characters pulling sneak attacks. I could go off on a tangent about this sort of thing..but I think it's best left said that to try and "define" any class on Amia is a waste of breath and will always be tainted by people trying to pinch out that last bit of AC.

(Also, Black Guards earn abilities through Divine means, just as Paladin does. Hence Divine Might, Shield, Grace, Turn Undead, Smite..)


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 02 2013, 10:07 AM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
What is the role of a blackguard by its very definition?
What are the requirements of becoming a blackguard?
How does one go about becoming a blackguard?
Does this process require a pact with the darker powers?
Do these powers have to be gods, or can they simply be powerful outsiders?
Are blackguards bound by faith, pact, or some other means to adhere to any specific code of connduct?
Is the blackguard explicitly a divine class?



1. The definition of Blackguard doesn't include a role. The definition is "a character who takes Blackguard levels".

2. Taking the Prestige Class upon meeting the mechanical requirements, plus "peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else."

3. See above.

4. The nature of this "peaceful contact" isn't specified. It has generally been assumed some kind of a Faustian pact or contract takes place, but that isn't explicit. It is clear from canon examples, as well as Amia practice, that Blackguards can also serve evil deities. In that case, there's no need for a contract more explicit or binding than the relationship between a cleric and his patron. You continue to serve the cause and gain powers in return. Even in that case, I assume the contact is initially made through a servant, because generally aren't powerful enough to summon a deity.

The other option is independent evil outsiders like devils and demons. The former may want your soul after your death in exchange for easy powers, no expectations in life. The latter you could weasel out of giving your soul to, if you promise to spread destruction wherever you go. That kind of pact would be contingent on you fulfilling it, though, and so that kind of a Blackguard could "Fall". Then again, both groups could recruit you to fight in the Blood War on the Prime Material in exchange for powers, and keep you fuelled up as long as you sought to whack Tanar'ri/Baatezu and their spawn on Toril. Other kind of outsiders could expect some quest from you. Still there are some who might just give you the powers for free, no strings attached. Some chaotic or enigmatic evil powers might want to have agents of discord like that. I would recommend BG players PM the DM team with details of their arrangement, so they know whether they should watch out for Falling you or have devils claim your soul when you die or whatever. But bottom line is: the BG class requirements don't even mention a pact or contract, so how you interpret "peaceful contact with an evil outsider" is very open.

5. They do not have to be gods. In fact, you probably can't summon a god so even god-related BGs would generally deal with a middle-man to initiate the relationship. They can be any evil outsider, within reason. I doubt a PC Tiefling is appropriate, but Night Hags, Rakshasa etc. should all work.

6. No. Blackguards have no blanket requirements of conduct. Individual Blackguards could have contracts that determine what they should or shouldn't do, but many evil powers wouldn't care. Blackguards serving a deity ought obviously to adhere to the patron's dogma/church policy.

7. Divine in the sense that their spells are divine, yes. That means no casting failure in armor, and whatever other rules you have. Deity-related, no. They can come from other evil outsider sources. The mere distinction of divine vs. arcane doesn't mean they aren't taught/learned spells. That's fluff you can interpret yourself, and varies wildly between and within classes. Some clerics get their spells from studying prayer and ritual manuals, surely. Some bards, like mine, study arcane spells normally. Sorcerers generally don't study. Training is not the decisive difference between arcane and divine.

One canon example of a deity-affiliated Blackguard is Scyllua Darkhope, Blackguard of Bane and the second-in-command of Zhentil Keep.

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spellhowler
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 02 2013, 10:30 AM 



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Bobo. My heart goes out to you for actually trying to define and play a class, instead of just gleaming cheese from it. You sir are a poet.


 
      
Bobo_Underhill
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 03 2013, 3:29 AM 

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Why thank you.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 04 2013, 2:33 AM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
So I've decided to finally get around to compling whatever information I can on the class, both mechanically and lore wise. From what I can see, there is literally no real information on what blackguards are other than them being "referred to as anti paladins by some" and "serving the dark gods". So I'm going to start off with a few questions as to what the class is and how it works on Amia since D&D is vague about it.

I'll try to answer to the best of my ability for Amia's canon.

Quote:
What is the role of a blackguard by its very definition?

Tough question to answer, because this would tie into the blackguard's pact. It's possible a blackguard is simply someone who's surrendered their soul for power, and are able to do whatever they want with that power. Or the pact could stipulate certain demands if they are to keep their power and/or soul, so requires that the blackguard serve's their patron's cause. This one is the far more likely stipulation, demons/devils will always enter pacts that are to their own advantage, and they're powerful, intelligent, and wise.

Quote:
What are the requirements of becoming a blackguard?

At it's core, peaceful contact with an evil outsider. Generally, I take it that this means that they must make a deal with the evil outsider for their blackguard 'divine' powers.

Quote:
How does one go about becoming a blackguard?

Well, they have to find a fiend who's interested in them somehow, (and won't murder them on sight), and make a deal with them. This could be through a summoning ritual, random contact (unlikely), or other means. Some form of dealing with an evil planar power is required though. Granted, I imagine that in most places, this is hard to pull off, and fiends are likely not going to just go around offering contracts to everyone who will bite. It's why blackguard is a prestige class, after all. (My opinion, naturally)

Quote:
Does this process require a pact with the darker powers?

Friendly contact with an evil outsider is required. So yes.

Quote:
Do these powers have to be gods, or can they simply be powerful outsiders?

Actually, from what I know, they're usually-always powerful evil outsiders. For someone taking an evil diety's power in service to them, I figure the divine champion class applies better. That's a whole different can of worms though.

Quote:
Are blackguards bound by faith, pact, or some other means to adhere to any specific code of connduct?

Depends on the contract. As I said, the fiend in question could simply care less about what they do as long as they get the mortal's soul. Most will likely have other stipulations. I think the general rule is: Don't anger your patron fiend and you'll be fine.

Quote:
Is the blackguard explicitly a divine class?

In an explicitly mechanical sense, no, but yes. You can have a blackguard character without a deity in the field, and be able to access all blackguard powers. (to my understanding) This generally assumes that the blackguard simply sold their soul for the pact, but doesn't explicitly serve them. That or they serve a power that's outside of our deity system. They could even be faithless, as long as they've made that pact and keep to it.
However, Blackguard abilities are divine in the sense that if a character receives a fall widget, they stop working. The reason for this is, that blackguard powers, while not having to explicitly come from the gods, they come from a greater power all the same, a power that can in some circumstances, (or at a whim, for demon contracts) decide to pull the powers they once granted. It's generally hard to 'fall' for a blackguard pact. The reason being, for a cleric/divine champion/paladin, they MUST serve their cause well, or their patron relinquishes their powers. As I understand it, should a blackguard 'fall', then the fiend loses the person's soul, unless they worded the pact in such a way that they can relinquish the powers while keeping their soul. (Which, can easily happen, fiends are intelligent and extremely so after all). Usually though it's the blackguard that works towards the fall intentionally, in such a case.

Quote:
As to the last question, I think it is impotant mainly because we need to thoroughly establish what the Blackguard is in all respects. They could be black magic users who are taught their arts, Orgol and the demon in the abyss teaching powers to Blackguards serves as a good example. Clerics and such do not need such training because their magic comes through faith.

That sounds more like a warlock to me, actually. To my understanding they form a similar pact with a fiend for their arcane powers. Though usually they're more of a 'I get your soul, go do whatever with your powers'. And that's that.

This is my understanding of how BGs work on Amia.

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 04 2013, 4:00 AM 



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The pact blackguard is all fine and dandy, but I'd really hate to see Deity serving blackguards disappear. Bane is a pretty notorious blackguard sponsor. I'd ask the team to carefully consider.


 
      
NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 04 2013, 4:04 AM 



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Also, on a high-level server like Amia, the strength of the patron outsider needs to be carefully considered as well. Given that very specialized blackguards can summon some extremely mighty fiends, it doesn't make sense that that sort of power would come from an outsider weaker than the summon itself. For the sake of simplicity I think it should be the norm for BG pacts to come from the Lords of the Nine or the named demon lords. (Orcus, ect.). I ran into a few BGs that claimed to have pacts with a minor succubus and then promptly summoned this monstrous balor thing. It was a bit head-scratching.


 
      
Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 04 2013, 5:07 AM 

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Are blackguard pacts transferable? Can the fiend who owns your soul barter it away to some other fiend in exchange for whatever goods and/or services fiends enjoy, thereby changing the nature of the blackguard's obligations to her new "owner"? Can a blackguard hire / coerce / trick / force someone into assuming the burden of her pact, thereby freeing herself?

Can somebody else sell your soul? I'm thinking here of the classic "I'd sell my first born for that sort of power." Can you be born into a blackguard pact?

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666WaysToHell
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 04 2013, 5:17 AM 

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I know one person who was a blackguard of Asmodeus, then somehow they sold their soul to Paush in the Abyss without reprimand from Asmodeus. So I guess it is possible.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Tue, Nov 05 2013, 13:01 PM 

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NinjaClarinet wrote:
The pact blackguard is all fine and dandy, but I'd really hate to see Deity serving blackguards disappear. Bane is a pretty notorious blackguard sponsor. I'd ask the team to carefully consider.

Well, as I see it, deities can still sponsor blackguards, or easily have blackguards who serve them. This could hold true even if the power ultimately comes from a lower planar. To my understanding, evil dieties are often attended by lower planars of their choice, who could sponsor one of them to make blackguard pacts with their mortal servants.

Now, how would this work? Well, to the 'mortal', there probably aren't too many differences, they're getting divine (or, pseudo-divine) power from a power that serves their patron deity, in a sense they're drawing from a middle-man, albeit a very very powerful one, to my understanding. Now why would Bane (using him as an example, other deities can apply as well, Lolth with spider demons works too) do something like this? Well one, it allows him to give his mortal servants power that doesn't draw off of him directly. Two, it also provides additional incentive for straying from his path, in that blackguard contracts are harder to break (I'll get to that). This process should work as long as all of the links in the chain do their part. Of course, considering how lower planars behave, it's likely they'll try every trick they can to get a sweeter deal, without angering the deity enough to make him/her simply relinquish the fiend. In a way, I kind of view it as a sort of diabolical job search, the Deity provides followers who are interested in blackguard pacts which the devils they serve wouldn't be able to get on their own, the devils whom serve the deity provide power for his followers, and they get a cut in the contract for serving as a subcontractor. In Bane's case, he'd have a lot of devils making these pacts.

Indeed, this is probably the more likely case of blackguard contracts being made, simply because in most cases, making blackguard pacts wouldn't be something lower planars would be inclined to do, seeing mortals as beneath them, or unable to control the slaughter-instincts before going on with the pact. Of course, this process likely doesn't work as seamlessly as I'm making it sound, especially for demon blackguard pacts, where betrayal is a lot more compulsive and cutthroat rather than with 'legal' maneuvering. At the mortal blackguard's end though, that they're given power from a subordinate planar to their deity rather than their deity directly won't mean too much for them, hence deity blackguards.

I will also point out that a mortal is free to serve any evil deity if they made an outside blackguard contract, but in that case their 'divine' power doesn't come from the deity, it comes from whichever fiend they made a pact with.

A cleric, or divine champion that serves him, can, at an time, if they want to, decide to abandon their power and go off on another path. Naturally, this will cause them to fall, but they only lose the powers that were granted with them, and will be subject to whatever wrath the deity's mortal followers enact. There's much more stringent control with a blackguard pact though, and in many cases, can likely be stipulated that the mortal's soul is forfeit if they break the contract, which could very easily include clauses to serve the deity's cause, and that deity can call on the fiend to terminate the pact if they have reason to, either through violations or on a whim (for CE deities).

Mechanically speaking from a DM perspective, we have in the past required that blackguards if they want to fall or rebuild away from blackguard jump through a lot of strenuous hoops in order to ditch the blackguard pact. Whereas a cleric or divine champion can be easily fallen at any time, all they need to do is violate their deity's dogma in a huge way or just stop worshipping their patron. No blood contract based or cosmological strings attached.

Quote:
Also, on a high-level server like Amia, the strength of the patron outsider needs to be carefully considered as well. Given that very specialized blackguards can summon some extremely mighty fiends, it doesn't make sense that that sort of power would come from an outsider weaker than the summon itself. For the sake of simplicity I think it should be the norm for BG pacts to come from the Lords of the Nine or the named demon lords. (Orcus, ect.). I ran into a few BGs that claimed to have pacts with a minor succubus and then promptly summoned this monstrous balor thing. It was a bit head-scratching.

It is, quite simply, the explanation we go with is that the fiend, be it imp, succubus, glabrezu, quasi, erinyes, abishai, cornugon, etc, is the middle man for a greater abyssal or infernal power. (Daemon contracts are possible as well, but very rare compared to the abyssal and infernal ones) So, in a sense, the contract is still with that greater power. Not that the mortal has to know this. It makes sense this way, Orcus himself isn't going to run around offering blackguard contracts to random mortals. A succubus with their charms and wiles would be much more easily suited for arranging them. Like an abyssal recruiter.

Quote:
Are blackguard pacts transferable? Can the fiend who owns your soul barter it away to some other fiend in exchange for whatever goods and/or services fiends enjoy, thereby changing the nature of the blackguard's obligations to her new "owner"? Can a blackguard hire / coerce / trick / force someone into assuming the burden of her pact, thereby freeing herself?

Well, souls are valuable things to fiends. Still, unless there's a 'protection' clause that prevents this from happening, I don't see why it couldn't. However, I wouldn't say it's something that happens often. Generally the ultimate shareholder in these pacts are rather powerful planars, and it wouldn't be easy to get them to give it up. As for bartering, I suppose it's possible, especially for demons who are less likely to honor their agreements. As for the blackguard doing that, I really wouldn't say that's possible. From what I understand blackguard contracts have to be willing and they can't just simply get someone else to pay their price without a lot of hoops to jump through. It would be akin to trying to fall from a blackguard pact in many respects, it's not a simple task at all. Not to mention if they fail at whatever they're doing...

Quote:
Can somebody else sell your soul? I'm thinking here of the classic "I'd sell my first born for that sort of power." Can you be born into a blackguard pact?

It's possible, I think we have in the past had people making abyssal/infernal contracts bring people to the fiends where they forcibly extract their souls, even for non-blackguard contracts. Of course, you can expect one hell of a time if the person engaged in the contract falls short or isn't able to do it... like if the first born fights back and is able to escape, or someone gets him first.
I don't think it's possible to force someone into a blackguard pact, therefore I don't think it's possible to be born into one.

This is how BG pacts work, to my understanding.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 26 2015, 22:28 PM 

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Necrothread! How fitting for a Blackguard discussion. :)

I'm wondering about all this blackguard pact business. I've read a few Lore threads and posts by various players and DMs stating their opinions, but I've not seen anything clearly stated anywhere as a formal rule. So, I'll just ask straight out:

Is it mandatory for a Blackguard to have a fiendish pact, or even any kind of formal or informal pact at all? Can anyone quote a canon lore source requiring it?

The canon requirement for the class is "the character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else." By that definition, not only are the requirements probably met by anyone who's walked down a street in Tarkuul without getting into a fight, but the outsider in question doesn't even have to be a fiend, or lower-planar entity of any kind. A night hag, efreet, salamander, even some dumbass thingamabob like an achaierai (which I like to refer to as the budgie of death) all fit the bill, so long as you were present when someone summoned it. You can call up a non-fiend evil outsider (hellhound) with Summon Monster 3. If you could manage to summon an evil tiefling, genasi, or 20th-level monk, even someone else's PC could meet the definition.

All the lore about fiendish pacts surrounding blackguards definitely has long tradition and the overwhelming weight of precedent. And it's also pretty awesome. But I'm thinking about looking in a different direction: what about a character who simply admires and idolizes some type of evil outsider, and seeks to emulate its nature and powers? That's basically what a dragon disciple is, really.

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jul 26 2015, 22:52 PM 



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NinjaClarinet wrote:
Lutra wrote:
Either way, using common sense and the Amian tradition lore, your blackguard needs a pact to become a blackguard.


Have to say I disagree with this frankly, and passing it off as "common sense" isn't really being fair, I don't think. There's nothing in FR lore to support this assumption. Friendly contact could mean anything. A rite of passage for your religious order, perhaps. Or a required "exposure to true evil" to really make sure the character can look it in the eye without flinching. Many PRCs have knowledge prerequisites. It could be interpreted as a way to make sure the character is knowledgeable in safe summoning before working on his own fiendish servant. Perhaps the evil outsider is a divine messenger for the religious blackguards.

I imagine every deity, every church, every faction within a church, every organization (Zhentarim, Shadovar, Shadow Thieves, Thayans, whatever) probably has their own take on how they train and initiate their blackguards, given the flavor text for them being "generals of evil". The blackguard lore in the DMG never mentions pacts. Neither Fiendish Codex mentions blackguards aside from giving them some extra spells (or listing them as classes the demons/devils themselves have). The sections on pacts never mention blackguard levels as being an available reward.

While I certainly think you -can- pact your way into blackguardhood, it strikes me as the nontraditional, lone wolf way of going about it, that just happens to be -vastly- overrepresented on Amia.


gorgometh wrote:
And NC has the right of it in my opinion, based on my own research as well.


Hopefully a DM can put a "formal ruling" stamp on it :P


 
      
Grymia
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 2:20 AM 

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I like the idea of splitting the middle: Your Blackguard needs a pact with some permutation of a Dark power, Demonic, Devilish, Yugoloth, or evil Deity or similar all fill that requirement.

That's just my thought and my two cents.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 5:08 AM 

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The crux lies in what people mean when they say pact I imagine. When some people say pact they think of a contract and list of rules that two parties follow for a set time. When I see the word I generally think of its roots: merely something that is agreed upon. That agreement can be anything from "sacrifice a virgin to me at every full moon" or a simple nod of acknowledgment that says "yep, I think you're as Evil as you claim to be, here's some black magic, have a blast." In other words, a pact doesn't always mean a lasting agreement so much as it is the instance of an agreement.

(If anything, I think of the pacts from Drakengard, where most of such agreements are made between mortals and magical creatures who are both in mutual need of aid or under duress, like being mortally wounded or on the brink of suicide. Additionally, those pacts were made in a matter of minutes, and there could often be fallout of the two parties not agreeing afterwards, like a couple who got married too fast. In fact, marriage might not be so horrible an analogy to a BG pact considering who you wed, but I digress...)

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MazeOfThorns
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 6:17 AM 

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Liz wrote:
Are blackguard pacts transferable?


Yep.

I went the long way around for my blackguard, meaning I hunted up a patron before taking those first BG levels. Yes, stuck at level 7 for a while. It was worth it to wait for the RP with the DM who took up the role of the fiend. Cause what blackguard doesn't love their fiend patron showing up out of the blue for a 'chat'?!

Due to RP said blackguard had the opportunity to have another take over the pact. Granted the one taking the pact was someone that the fiend would relish getting their claws on, not just some Joe off the street. It took careful negotiation, timing and a willing person but my blackguard pact went to another person in Amia. Huzzah!

(Please note the circumstances were extraordinary and had DM oversight - the fiend was excellently played by a DM, so don't go thinking its easy, it's definitely not.)

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Luckbringer
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 8:45 AM 

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Pragmatically, I would say just keep with the NWN mechanical requirements for the blackguard PrC and everything else is player optional fluff as with any other class. All you should need to be a blackguard is to be evil and a bit sneaky to put it simply. To enforce PnP class requirements (the whole contact with an outsider thing) you would have to make it a request only class, which is not fair to the causal player. I'm not saying fleashing out the lore is a bad thing but just keep it flexible and open.

Lorewise, I would imagin the majority of blackguards would be in the service of deities rather than the pact system with fiends (although I see how this can be appealing from an RP perspective). True power comes from the gods and they would have much more interest in having anti-paladins roaming Faerun championing their causes.

And would that deity necessarily have to be evil? A blackguard of Kelemvor anyone?

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 15:55 PM 

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Luckbringer wrote:
And would that deity necessarily have to be evil? A blackguard of Kelemvor anyone?


Well that's where it gets a bit fuzzy. For the purpose of type, deities are considered outsiders. So actually having the brief presence of an evil deity itself is enough to qualify to my understanding. Otherwise, the deity has to have some sort of evil servant that you can come into contact with. I'm not sure if Kelemvor is served by any Evil extraplanars and even if he was, it wouldn't be likely that he would grant you a Blackguard's Create Undead Ability, so you'd likely have to figure out a way to make it Deathless instead. Come to think of it, it would also be weird with him granting Contagion, given that his deal is to make Death as un-scary and peaceful as possible, and having one of his agents spreading the FR equivalent of ebola is counter to that message.

Mechanically can you make one? Yes, but I think this is one of those situations where you have to go a bit beyond the bare bones of it. (haha, dead pun) The either being an evil deity or being served by evil outsiders clause does well in preventing weird mix-ups like that from happening. Personally, I think Kelemvor would more likely have Evil Divine Champions, rather than Blackguards, simply because he's got so much vested in not having his followers deal with Undead or Devils who want to steal souls away from the afterlife for themselves.

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MazeOfThorns
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 16:22 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
Luckbringer wrote:
And would that deity necessarily have to be evil? A blackguard of Kelemvor anyone?


... I'm not sure if Kelemvor is served by any Evil extraplanars and even if he was, it wouldn't be likely that he would grant you a Blackguard's Create Undead Ability, so you'd likely have to figure out a way to make it Deathless instead. Come to think of it, it would also be weird with him granting Contagion, given that his deal is to make Death as un-scary and peaceful as possible, and having one of his agents spreading the FR equivalent of ebola is counter to that message.

Mechanically can you make one? Yes, but I think this is one of those situations where you have to go a bit beyond the bare bones of it. (haha, dead pun) ...


I'm with Dark Immolation here. Just because you can do it mechanically doesn't mean you should do it. Too many of the BG abilities are counter to Kelemvors dogma. Now... a sneaky BG of Bane /pretending/ to be a Kelemvorite, that'd be interesting. Course the Eternal Order were sort of that already without the BG levels... DOH!

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 16:54 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
So actually having the brief presence of an evil deity itself is enough to qualify to my understanding.

Not exactly...

Liz wrote:
"The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else."

You did not summon a god. :)

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 22:09 PM 

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I'm aware of the verbatim of the PnP class. But to my knowledge the Amian ruling was simply peaceful contact with the outsider. PC's have traveled to Zashibon and other places to meet an Evil Outsider on their own turf. The "was summoned" part is the least important part of that requirement in my mind, given that a PC on Amia can walk right up to the Abyss and talk to the creature there. For one of the BG instructors you have to do just that. Additionally, that's how I saw the pact-through-outsider and simply-BG-of-deity blackguards both meeting the requirement; whether you're making an agreement with a demon/devil or simply filling a station for your god, you could be said to have made contact with an outsider. Considering we have had BG's who have not gone through an intermediary, that's the only way to explain it, unless we're going to say the requirement only applies in some cases and not in others.

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Dead
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 22:47 PM 

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Tieflings are evil outsiders. How about that?

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 27 2015, 23:06 PM 

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Native outsiders, Dead. And granted, while that distinction is still all kinds of fugged up in relations to certain spells, I'm fairly certain you can't make a pact with the horned call-girl down the street. I'm going to err on the side that was a genuine question and not just trying to be smart.

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davis114
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 2:41 AM 

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That was definitely just being smart. You just got Deaded.

I'm of the opinion that the pact itself isn't truly necessary for the BG class itself. However, it should be necessary for all the BG goodies, like the epic summon and higher end class abilities.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 2:45 AM 

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Why?

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CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 2:58 AM 

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I thought you only needed a pact to be entered into the raffles.

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davis114
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 4:09 AM 

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One, because it makes sense for more powerful abilities to require that sort of rp. Two, there's a precedent for other classes powerful abilities requiring rp and requests. I see no reason why the blackguard class should be any different. I could see the class abilities possibly not requiring that, but the book takes rp and a request.

The blackguard class is one of the coolest in the game, imo. It's also one of the most intricate, from an rp perspective. The abilities we gift BG's on Amia are pretty powerful, and should require a certain level of rp. That, and the sheer amount of rp that can be generated from the class is pretty much way too much fun to not require it.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 4:17 AM 

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I totally agree that it should require RP and a request. I haven't heard anyone say why it should specifically and invariably require that RP to take the form of a pact. Why couldn't that RP be just as valid in the form of some sort of ritual of self-actualization, in the manner of a dragon disciple? Or in the form of a teacher/student apprenticeship, in the manner of a Shadowjump request or a 1K faces request or an avariel flight widget request?

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davis114
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 4:34 AM 

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Because the pact is part of what a BG is. An evil character following an evil God with divine powers could just as easily be a cleric without the pact.

Now, you also need to define the pact. Really, in its essence, it's simply about giving up any semblance of morality for the promise of power, vengeance, or protection. It doesn't necessarily have to be your typical contract written in blood with some random outsider. It's the spirit of the pact that needs to be held, because it defines the blackguard class. It's what separates a blackguard from any other random evil-minded joe nobody. A blackguard is evil incarnate, not just an evil minded individual. The pact represents that notion nicely.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 5:15 AM 

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"Giving up any semblance of morality in exchange for <various goodies>" can take many different forms, though. Isn't that what, say, a red dragon disciple is doing, when she welcomes the nature of her chosen dragon into her psyche? She's not entering into any kind of bargain, or even any relationship of any kind, with any specific dragon. But she's certainly doing exactly the thing you describe: voluntarily corrupting herself, tossing away morality in exchange for power. Would that fit the definition of "pact," as you're approaching it here? If so, I don't think we're disagreeing at all, we're just using our terms differently. :)

I completely agree here that a BG must do *something* to get her dirty tricks. And it should be something horrible, and inherently evil, and profoundly corruptive. No question at all there, in my mind. I'm just advocating that the "something" should be a lot less rigidly defined than what Amia seems to have informally canonized.

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CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 5:21 AM 

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Jokes aside, the only person who had it spot on was the guy who said only the mechanics matter. Amia has a very poor track record when it comes to consistently enforcing lore - not out of mistakes all the time, but mainly because people want the freedom to define their RPG from the ground up, and while the buck normally stops with DMs they're just as contradictory in their established canon. It's like what, 10+ years of revolving door lore? Would be a lot more fruitful to discuss awesome ways to RP a blackguard than to argue about the definition when nobody uses a dictionary over a thesaurus around here. Bring on the creative ideas, I say.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 5:22 AM 

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That's exactly what I'm saying, Council! :D

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davis114
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 5:25 AM 

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Oh, I think it is. And we are agreeing. Just wording it differently.

However, I do disagree with one point. You really can't compare dragon disciples to blackguards. Firstly, not all disciples are evil. Secondly, it's an innate thing for them. It's in their blood. The choice to accept and compound upon what's already there is inherently an easier one. Not to say the process isn't difficult, and chalk full of stellar rp. It's just easier, because the tools to make it happen are already in place.

A blackguard has to go out of his or her way, to some really dark places, in order to achieve their power. They have to make that conscious decision to change what they are, and become something horrible. The reasons they do that, that's the meat of the class. The pact is just the how of it all. And I never was much interested in the how of things.

So yes! I think we more or less agree. I'd be careful comparing the blackguard class to other classes, though. There are some pretty stark differences that kind of mold how you have to think about the lore behind each class. Especially with how much we've changed here on Amia when compared to canon lore. That there is another reason blackguards are so hard to play, and the very reason you made this thread. There's just no real consensus on how certain aspects of their lore should come to pass.

...Lookit that. I talked myself in a circle. Yay shapes!

Edit: I got ninja'd twice. Gits.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 6:18 AM 

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If it helps anyone making lore, I wrote a backstory for the blackguard I never ended up making whose blackguard powers stemmed from a warlock-like pact his ancestor made that involved cursing the firstborn in his family line. And so he ends up with Blackguard powers simply by virtue of being the firstborn. The fiend thing already got what it wanted, and now any firstborn falling under its sway are just icing on the cake, so it really doesn't care what they do. I was told this "didn't really need a request", but I submitted it regardless.

So I think we got some leeway here, in terms of Blackguard lore.

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PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 6:26 AM 

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Liz wrote:
I'm just advocating that the "something" should be a lot less rigidly defined than what Amia seems to have informally canonized.


My thoughts as well. I think there is too much of a focus on the faustian pact concept. While alluring in an rp sense, it should be only considered as one avenue to blackguardship and not the avenue. Blackguards are quite simply champions of evil as much as a paladin is a champion of good which take many forms and guises. The PnP lore is quite explicitly open with no mention of a pact scenario. Just peaceful contact with a summoned evil outsider. You can play that however you like, and rightly so, as long as it is relevant to becoming a blackguard in some way.

I have come to the conclusion that my blackguard of Kelemvor would be feasible, just as a thought experiment. Kelemvor a neutral dieity, supports LE clergy and worshipers, and is known to make agreements with devils to allow them into the city of the dead to despense punishments on souls of the false. He would also have evil aligned petitioners, since he has evil worshipers, who I would also imagin he would employ in his sevice to again depense cruel punishments on those that are damned in his realm. A potential blackguard could have made contact with either of these and agreed to serve Kelemvor in some way, perhaps as his agent on Toril who he can use in ways which his good aligned clergy cannot be employed. A hunter and punisher of necromancers who does it with extreme prejudice, who has no moral quarrel with utilising torture or extortion as a tool for their deity's concept of the greater good.

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CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 6:32 AM 

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Luckbringer wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that my blackguard of Kelemvor would be feasible, just as a thought experiment. Kelemvor a neutral dieity, supports LE clergy and worshipers, and is known to make agreements with devils to allow them into the city of the dead to despense punishments on souls of the false. He would also have evil aligned petitioners, since he has evil worshipers, who I would also imagin he would employ in his sevice to again depense cruel punishments on those that are damned in his realm. A potential blackguard could have made contact with either of these and agreed to serve Kelemvor in some way, perhaps as his agent on Toril who he can use in ways which his good aligned clergy cannot be employed. A hunter and punisher of necromancers who does it with extreme prejudice, who has no moral quarrel with utilising torture or extortion as a tool for their deity's concept of the greater good.


that sounds sick as heeeeeell

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davis114
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 6:40 AM 

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This is what I've been saying, though. You're all focusing too much on the word. A pact doesn't have to be some formal contract between a blackguard and an outsider. There just has to be some kind of agreement in place for a blackguard to gain divine powers. What that agreeement is, or whether or not the blackguard is even aware of it, is entirely up to the player. Imo.

In Tormak's example, a pact was made further back in his lineage, and he was effectively cursed with the blackguard status. Perfectly acceptable. Neat, even. I'd be willing to bet there are a billion ways a blackguard can gain his or her powers. The only thing is, there does need to be some kind of connection between that character and some sort of evil, powerful force. Beyond that of simple worship. Which encompasses a really broad range of things, that all just happens to fall under the word 'pact.' Maybe you've been cursed. Maybe you did it for the right reasons, and the power of the Abyss or Hells has turned you into a monster.

You could be an elf, and decide to sow chaos upon your fellow elves by being a Lolthite. You could be a dwarf following Grumsh.

Or, you could sign a deal with a demon and go the classic route. Really, there are a ridiculous number of creative ways for a blackguard to come by their power. So I think this needs to be the understood definition of the pact. It describes how the blackguard came by their divine power, be it through one act of service or another by the character or others. That's all.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 7:51 AM 

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davis114 wrote:
However, I do disagree with one point. You really can't compare dragon disciples to blackguards. Firstly, not all disciples are evil. Secondly, it's an innate thing for them. It's in their blood. The choice to accept and compound upon what's already there is inherently an easier one. Not to say the process isn't difficult, and chalk full of stellar rp. It's just easier, because the tools to make it happen are already in place.

I think a tiefling gaining BG powers in precisely the way a dragon-blooded character gains DD powers would be an outstanding route into BGness. No personal relationship of any kind with any specific individual outsider, no promise of services or sacrifices, no commitment of any kind to anyone but herself and her fascination with awakening her own planar blood and exploiting its powers for personal gain. That's every bit as much a Blackguard as someone who draws a summoning circle, calls forth a servitor of Asmodeus, and pledges her blood in exchange for powers.

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Luckbringer
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 9:07 AM 

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That definitely fits into my concept of what a blackguard could be. Sounds badass.

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The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 13:33 PM 

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That concept actually fits quite closely to that of a lot of warlock lore in general. Which have in my own view had some better takes on the concept than BG but all in all is quite a similar class concept and might be useful for sourcing info for any going that sort of BG route.


 
      
davis114
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 14:14 PM 

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Yes and no, Liz. The main difference between what a BG can do and what a DD can do is the source of their powers. DD's have innate ability through their bloodline. Tieflings would too, but BG powers are divine in nature. One can't come by them naturally. It's perfectly acceptable to say the tiefling is receiving his or her powers from some power in the Hells or Abyss unknowingly, but they do have to come from somewhere. Divine powers don't just manifest innately.

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Elorathall
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 15:22 PM 

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If you interpret a blackguard as an anti-paladin, then a blackguard who advances the cause of evil for the sake of evil is just as viable as a paladin who advances the cause of good for the sake of good.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 18:55 PM 

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davis114 wrote:
... BG powers are divine in nature. One can't come by them naturally. ... Divine powers don't just manifest innately.

Why?

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CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 20:19 PM 

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Liz wrote:
davis114 wrote:
... BG powers are divine in nature. One can't come by them naturally. ... Divine powers don't just manifest innately.

Why?


d20srd wrote:
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells.


That is actually unilaterally the case, yeah. Divine spells are borrowed, not innate. I'm sure there are a handful of people who have played characters on Amia who swear up and down that they're their own god but I would bet 99% of the time people follow this particular lore straight out of the PHB.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 21:23 PM 

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Okay, and in what way are they mechanically precluded from "reskinning" their power source to be more consistently an "Awakened Fiendblood"?

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CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 22:03 PM 

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serbiris wrote:
Okay, and in what way are they mechanically precluded from "reskinning" their power source to be more consistently an "Awakened Fiendblood"?

I posted earlier in this thread that I recognize how lore is a joke here but this is "why even have lore" level

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 22:11 PM 

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I don't dispute that divine powers must come from some higher entity (deity, arch-fiend, whatever). You're right, that's an iron-clad non-negotiable FR rule. I'm asking, why does that divine link need to be some formal practiced thing, rather than just a natural consequence of purposefully exploring and developing the power of the fiendish blood that was born in your veins?

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 28 2015, 22:33 PM 

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CouncilofAutumn wrote:
serbiris wrote:
Okay, and in what way are they mechanically precluded from "reskinning" their power source to be more consistently an "Awakened Fiendblood"?

I posted earlier in this thread that I recognize how lore is a joke here but this is "why even have lore" level


Trololol, no. The flexibility between the mechanics necessitated by the game and by a given class and the lore of the setting which establishes it doesn't mean "fuck da lore". If it bothers you that much, too bad, because there's been a precedent - Warlocks, Kossuthian Disciples and non-standard Prestige Classes, oh my.

Edit: Anti-magic field monks.

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CouncilofAutumn
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 29 2015, 0:54 AM 

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serbiris wrote:
Trololol, no. The flexibility between the mechanics necessitated by the game and by a given class and the lore of the setting which establishes it doesn't mean "fuck da lore". If it bothers you that much, too bad, because there's been a precedent - Warlocks, Kossuthian Disciples and non-standard Prestige Classes, oh my.

Edit: Anti-magic field monks.


All the examples you cited are bending existing lore.

I'm talking about casting divine spells without them coming from the part that is defined by the word "divine".

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 29 2015, 1:14 AM 

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They don't even have a divine spellbook though - they have abilities which we just kind of "say" are divine-based. Most of them are not even spells at all.

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