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There's a well known plane of shadow in D&D canon, but is there also an opposite plane of light? Or perhaps more accurately twilight, as the plane of shadow is not a plane of utter darkness?

There aren't any references in the Manual of the Planes (3e), as far as I can see. Though I only skimmed over it.

To my understanding, the Shadowplane, the Material Plane and the Feywild are linked, as the other two are essentially warped mirrors of the Material Plane. I could be mistaken though. Pretty sure there's no Plane of Light though.

Mana is right, that's how it is in FR!

I don't know whether Amia uses the para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes, but if so, then there's a plane of Radiance, which is at the junction of the planes of Fire and Positive Energy.

That's not a direct opposite to Shadow, though, like the way Positive and Negative planes are explicitly antithetical. The plane of Shadow is its own independent entity, not a transitory plane, and there's no direct diametric opposite to that, to my knowledge.

There is a positive plane thought.

Fire, Air, Earth, Wind, negative and positive!

Positive Energy and "light" are two seperate things. Synonomous due to their consistantly common shared duty, destroying undeath but that's for different reasons.

The light generated by the prime material is the cause of the shadows that comprise the shadow plane.

I must be dumb. I always thought the Ethereal Plane was the opposite of the Shadow Plane. They're the two planes that overlap the Prime.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

The light generated by the prime material is the cause of the shadows that comprise the shadow plane.

Is that 3.5 thing? The Shadowplane's existence is usually explained by two theories but Ive not heard that one before.

Or maybe I am misreading it your statement.

Shadows on any plane are manifestations of the shadowplane itself.

Sure but I think that's like saying the shadows make themselves instead of the shadows being created by light sources on the prime. Sure, Shadowscape is all its own thing, but generally speaking both the shadow plane and the ethereal plane are meant to be reflections of what exists in the prime, much like how Werewolf: the Apocalypse's Umbra is a reflection of the Tellurian, etc etc.

If you can't tell... I love this kind of topic...

What about this notion. Instead of shadows being an area where light is not. You could argue that light is simply created by the absence of shadow.

Most people think about light as being the creator of shadows, well... according to some, it was darkness that birthed all!

And yes, the Shadow plane does currently reflect the prime. But one theory states that the shadowplane wasn't always the shadowplane, and the other states that the shadowplane has always been, possibly predating the prime.

I'm glad you like debating!

Although I love how fantastic it sounds (and I'm sure the Shadow Plane makes everything seem like a polar opposite scenario), I'm inclined to disagree with that idea on two counts.

1.) Shadow isn't darkness. A shadow can mean things like "to follow after someone" or "a weak facsimile", but the most commonly accepted idea is that a shadow is the "rough image cast by an object blocking rays of illumination." In other words, the shadow isn't created by darkness (or itself???), it's created by light. An area where there is no light is present is not "shadowy", it is "dark."

2.) Excluding the influence of magic used specifically to counteract physics, objects cannot exude shadow, since by the above definition it is impossible for shadows to create themselves (they require a light source, and an object). There are no objects that do this naturally, and plenty that naturally manufacture light (and indirectly, shadow). In a way - like fire - shadow is a reaction, not an element. I'm sure Fel'brin has plenty of magic tricks to make it seem like it isn't, but it doesn't mean that happens naturally.

The Shadow Plane is like a gigantic, exaggerated shadow cast by the Prime Material from sources in the prime material (everything from fireflies to the sun). That's my opinion!

Real life physics aside, Shadows are the presence of a measurable somewhat tangible material known as shadow essence. This essence is absent in brightly lit areas. A box completely sealed and absent any source of light is dark, and still is considered shadowed. That is to say, light is not necessary for darkness and thus shadows to exist.

the theory of the Citadel of light states that the shadow plane was once a demi plane much similar to the prime. the reason is became the shadow plane was due to a group of followers of a power, deitic creature, decided to construct a citadel and literally suck all the light, color, and much of the life out of the plane. This means the plane is shadowed not as a result of the prime, but rather it literally had all the light removed from it.

The other theory contends that the shadowplane is a remnant of the initial "Great Darkness" that birthed Selune and Shar. This would mean that the shadow plane predates the material plane and thus certainly cannot be reliant upon it.

The fact that dancers and other classes can literally manipulate and shape shadows, lends itself to the idea that shadows are not simply a condition of light, but rather a thing itself.

And there are creatures that exude darkness/shadow

As for how you define what is shadowed... well that a grey area (Budum tch)

Hrothmus wrote:

Real life physics aside, Shadows are the presence of a measurable somewhat tangible material known as shadow essence. This essence is absent in brightly lit areas. A box completely sealed and absent any source of light is dark, and still is considered shadowed. That is to say, light is not necessary for darkness and thus shadows to exist.

That's highly arguable, since the whole theory hinges on what shadowdancers, illusionists and other supernaturally powered beings do to shadows. If not for the manipulation of magical beings, shadows would simply behave the way physics dictates. So this is more of a "Potato" "Potatoe" situation than an explanation for why the Shadow plane exists.

The main issue here is the loose definition of "Shadow" versus "Darkness". A shadow, as I've said, is literally defined by the light and object that create it. Arguing that a shadow is anything more than just that because can be manipulated by magic or supernatural powers is like saying that all fires are 'fire essence' and all water is 'water essence,' et cetera, and that wizards or pyromancers/hydromancers are simply manipulating the mystical substance rather than using magic to temporarily suppress the laws of physics.

A box lid not quite yet closed would shade the interior of the box, but once the box is closed, the box's interior is dark, not shadowed. Shadowdancer powers work in pitch blackness because they manipulate both darkness and shadow in equal measure (and good god do you guys need more words for both of those terms). :mrgreen:

Hrothmus wrote:

the theory of the Citadel of light states that the shadow plane was once a demi plane much similar to the prime. the reason is became the shadow plane was due to a group of followers of a power, deitic creature, decided to construct a citadel and literally suck all the light, color, and much of the life out of the plane. This means the plane is shadowed not as a result of the prime, but rather it literally had all the light removed from it.

An interesting idea, but nigh-impossible to prove. If it's true, that would be quite a stretch regardless, because we have areas like "The Shade of Brogendenstein" and "The Shade of Endir's Point" (just to find reference in this game) - reflections of real world locations - which is proof against the Shining Citadel theory (which has no hard evidence). I've played in a fair number of Faerun-set D&D games where travel between the Shadow and Prime Material Plane occurred as part of the module, and in these scenarios the shadow was a reflection of the real world. If they started out separate, they'd be nothing alike. Furthermore, the idea of a plane that is the shadow of something else needs to have an object it's the shadow of, or why would we use that word?

Hrothmus wrote:

The other theory contends that the shadowplane is a remnant of the initial "Great Darkness" that birthed Selune and Shar. This would mean that the shadow plane predates the material plane and thus certainly cannot be reliant upon it.

Again, nearly impossible to prove (and Shar would likely lie to confirm it even if it wasn't) without any kind of evidence...?

Hrothmus wrote:

The fact that dancers and other classes can literally manipulate and shape shadows, lends itself to the idea that shadows are not simply a condition of light, but rather a thing itself.

I could say "The fact that wizards and other classes can literally manipulate and shape wind, lends itself to the idea that wind is not simply a condition of the air, but rather a thing itself."

The truth here is that all supernatural and spell-like effects depend upon manipulation not of "shadow essence", but of the Weave that suffuses all things. Willpower - and I would say a hearty amount of placebo effect-style indoctrination over thousands of years - lends actual tangible power to Shadowdancers and provides them with the ability to manipulate and travel via shadows, but only if they believe with all their heart that they're getting to do something special by manipulating 'shadow essence.'

It's entirely the same reason why any other class has the ability to perform Supernatural abilities (if said class has access to Supernatural abilities) - the Weave is the "essence" part of the shadow you're manipulating. That's why when you enter an Antimagic or Dead Magic zone and get cut off from the weave, you can no longer manipulate shadows. But the shadows are still there, because they're not magical or mystical in any way. They're just an effect created by light and intervening objects.

Hrothmus wrote:

And there are creatures that exude darkness/shadow

Magically, yes. See above. There are creatures that can manipulate fires as a supernatural ability but it doesn't make the fire magical, just their powers.

Hrothmus wrote:

As for how you define what is shadowed... well that a grey area (Budum tch)

Haha. Well actually that is a very important part of this discussion - if you believe my definition for "Shadow" is insufficient, then what would you define a "Shadow" as, and how is it different than "Darkness?"

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That's highly arguable, since the whole theory hinges on what shadowdancers, illusionists and other supernaturally powered beings do to shadows. If not for the manipulation of magical beings, shadows would simply behave the way physics dictates. So this is more of a "Potato" "Potatoe" situation than an explanation for why the Shadow plane exists.

The main issue here is the loose definition of "Shadow" versus "Darkness". A shadow, as I've said, is literally defined by the light and object that create it. Arguing that a shadow is anything more than just that because can be manipulated by magic or supernatural powers is like saying that all fires are 'fire essence' and all water is 'water essence,' et cetera, and that wizards or pyromancers/hydromancers are simply manipulating the mystical substance rather than using magic to temporarily suppress the laws of physics.

As for defining shadows and darkness. A dark area is ALWAYS a shadowed area in that we as dancers can utilize it for our maneuvers. but shadows are not necessarily always very dark. In the presence of light, you have to define a shadow based on two thing (that I can think of off the top of my head) 1. A shadow could be a difference in illumination caused by a partial or total blocking of the light source. Or 2. You could try to define shadows by a particular "shade". The second is what I typically stick with.

To say that shadows are just a dimmer lit area due to light not being able to illuminate it as much as the surrounding area really doesn't do them justice in a Forgotten Realms setting. Shadows are the -presence- of the plane of shadow, an overlapping and manifestation. We can bend them, touch them, even infuse it into our bodies. What is a shade then? How do you infuse yourself with the absence of a thing? If there is no light does a Shade die since it has sacrificed it's flesh in lieu of something that requires light to exist? (talking about the Thultanthar shade btw... another overused term)

I think of it much the way I think of positive and negative energy. Negative energy bleeds over into the Plane of shadows in the form of the Darklands much in the way that the power of the plane of shadows bleeds into other planes in the form of shadows. Negative energy is not the absence of positive energy, but rather an equal and opposing force.

Since I can touch, taste, feel, and measure a shadow, it must -be-

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An interesting idea, but nigh-impossible to prove. If it's true, that would be quite a stretch regardless, because we have areas like "The Shade of Brogendenstein" and "The Shade of Endir's Point" (just to find reference in this game) - reflections of real world locations - which is proof against the Shining Citadel theory (which has no hard evidence). I've played in a fair number of Faerun-set D&D games where travel between the Shadow and Prime Material Plane occurred as part of the module, and in these scenarios the shadow was a reflection of the real world. If they started out separate, they'd be nothing alike. Furthermore, the idea of a plane that is the shadow of something else needs to have an object it's the shadow of, or why would we use that word?

I'm not arguing that the shadowplane doesn't mirror the prime, that it does no doubts about it.Keep in mind also that the plane of shadow is infinite in size. Though the Shining Citadel is the only 3.5 Edition Explanation for the Origin of the plane. (Manual Of Planes 3rd edition, page 64) The DM Handbook and Planar Handbooks don't offer a different explanation as to how the Plane was created. The explanation prior to that was something about it being spawned out of the Ethereal plane or something... I'll need get my hands on a first edition Manual of Planes.

And to why you would use that word. I would argue that it is because the plane contains Shadows. Shadow is a substance like in Alchemy how the elements are actual THINGS. Is fire just a word for the light, heat, and sound given off by certain chemical reactions or is there something more to it? I would argue in this setting that there IS something more to it.

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I could say "The fact that wizards and other classes can literally manipulate and shape wind, lends itself to the idea that wind is not simply a condition of the air, but rather a thing itself."

The truth here is that all supernatural and spell-like effects depend upon manipulation not of "shadow essence", but of the Weave that suffuses all things. Willpower - and I would say a hearty amount of placebo effect-style indoctrination over thousands of years - lends actual tangible power to Shadowdancers and provides them with the ability to manipulate and travel via shadows, but only if they believe with all their heart that they're getting to do something special by manipulating 'shadow essence.'

It's entirely the same reason why any other class has the ability to perform Supernatural abilities (if said class has access to Supernatural abilities) - the Weave is the "essence" part of the shadow you're manipulating. That's why when you enter an Antimagic or Dead Magic zone and get cut off from the weave, you can no longer manipulate shadows. But the shadows are still there, because they're not magical or mystical in any way. They're just an effect created by light and intervening objects.

After the last thread on this topic I went back and verified. When a shadowdancers uses his abilities, the weave is not involved. This was verified in game and DM approved/verified. It was also verified though that their abilities do not work in antimagic zones. The reason for which is still under debate. (I have some theories though)

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Haha. Well actually that is a very important part of this discussion - if you believe my definition for "Shadow" is insufficient, then what would you define a "Shadow" as, and how is it different than "Darkness?"

I think of darkness as concentrated shadow. A Lit room is one where light is the majority, shadows, or strips/areas of relative darkness, may be present, but ultimately Light is the majority share holder. A dark room on the other hand, is one where "Darkness" prevails, light is all but absent thus the room and area are considered Dark.

As far as lighting goes Bright light would be an area of Light, Dim light would be nearing 50/50, and darkness is obviously heavy dark and shadowed.

Shadows though come in different "thicknesses. A stone wall casting a deep shadow in moonlight is obviously darker than a leaf casting a shadow during the middle of the day. The ambient light saturation makes certain shadows stronger or weaker (this is all how I view it btw) that is why if I want to work on a new ability as a shadowdancer, I work with the shadows on the plane of shadows since they are deeper and more prevalant. Once I am able to work the ability with those shadows then I move to the prime and work my way down untill I can utilize the ability in your run of the mill middle of the day shadows.

Hrothmus wrote:

To say that shadows are just a dimmer lit area due to light not being able to illuminate it as much as the surrounding area really doesn't do them justice in a Forgotten Realms setting. Shadows are the -presence- of the plane of shadow, an overlapping and manifestation. We can bend them, touch them, even infuse it into our bodies. What is a shade then? How do you infuse yourself with the absence of a thing? If there is no light does a Shade die since it has sacrificed it's flesh in lieu of something that requires light to exist? (talking about the Thultanthar shade btw... another overused term)

How do Genasi exist? How do most magical beasts exist? By combining the animus of a creature with a mundane, elemental force, through the use of magic. By your logic magic items can't exist because they don't happen naturally, but that wasn't what I was saying at all.

You can manipulate shadows because that's how your supernatural powers manifest, much like how a wizard can seem to stop time. Is time magical? No, but the ability to manipulate it (even in a subjective sense) very much is.

(And yes, Lord Shadow Telamont of all the Shades in Shade formerly parked in the Shadow Weave of the Shadow Plane under the jurisdiction of the Nightbringer is a little out of hand.)

Hrothmus wrote:

I think of it much the way I think of positive and negative energy. Negative energy bleeds over into the Plane of shadows in the form of the Darklands much in the way that the power of the plane of shadows bleeds into other planes in the form of shadows. Negative energy is not the absence of positive energy, but rather an equal and opposing force.

Negative and Positive energy are purely magical constructs. Shadows are mundane, so it's really not the same thing at all. There's nowhere in Faerun that you can find non-magical negative energy. It is always magical, and it always requires magic to function to exist. Where the Negative or Positive energy planes touch the Plane of Shadows represents an infusion of magic (and arguably sentience).

Hrothmus wrote:

Since I can touch, taste, feel, and measure a shadow, it must -be-

It could also be argued that it is the way a Shadowdancer's powers manifest (combined, perhaps, with a near-religious affect) that causes shadows to seem less mundane than they are. It's clear as day by how Shadowdancers can literally mould them and turn them into living beings - the shadow didn't do that - the Shadowdancer did by using supernatural power. and It wasn't going to happen on its own.

Hrothmus wrote:

I'm not arguing that the shadowplane doesn't mirror the prime, that it does no doubts about it.Keep in mind also that the plane of shadow is infinite in size. Though the Shining Citadel is the only 3.5 Edition Explanation for the Origin of the plane. (Manual Of Planes 3rd edition, page 64) The DM Handbook and Planar Handbooks don't offer a different explanation as to how the Plane was created. The explanation prior to that was something about it being spawned out of the Ethereal plane or something... I'll need get my hands on a first edition Manual of Planes.

The Prime Material planes (as a universe) are also infinite in size - the system encompasses multiple worlds in Crystal Spheres and the Shadow Plane is also defined as touching each of them, like shadows cast by multiple objects that meet at the edges.

The shadow plane, in my opinion, sprung into existence when an object created by the gods cast the first shadow. It is an exaggeration of one element of what makes up the Prime Material, much like how all the other planes are. However, unlike the Outer Planes, the Shadow Plane is more prevalent than Good, Evil, Law and Chaos combined, and so enjoys a coterminous relationship with the Prime, hence its proximity.

Hrothmus wrote:

And to why you would use that word. I would argue that it is because the plane contains Shadows. Shadow is a substance like in Alchemy how the elements are actual THINGS. Is fire just a word for the light, heat, and sound given off by certain chemical reactions or is there something more to it? I would argue in this setting that there IS something more to it.

There is but only under the manipulation of Magic. In order for alchemists to properly use Essence Traps in this game, do they just throw the trap onto a natural bonfire? Even if it creates ten times the heat of a fire elemental, it is only the fire elemental that provides the Elemental Essence. Because the Essence isn't the fire itself, it's the manipulation of the Weave and magical influence that is fused with the reaction of Fire to create something new.

Hrothmus wrote:

After the last thread on this topic I went back and verified. When a shadowdancers uses his abilities, the weave is not involved. This was verified in game and DM approved/verified. It was also verified though that their abilities do not work in antimagic zones. The reason for which is still under debate. (I have some theories though)

Can I see what was said, exactly, and how many DMs chimed in on this subject? Serbiris was right - the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is very, very clear on how all Supernatural Effects are Weave (or on a very minute chance Shadow Weave) based. That's backed up by antimagic field and dead magic negating it, whereas there's no evidence to support a theory that it somehow stands separate from the Weave (or Shadow Weave) while no other Supernatural ability in the setting does. I'm more of the opinion that the DM that chimed in may have misunderstood the question by thinking that the Weave is only related to spells.

Hrothmus wrote:

I think of darkness as concentrated shadow. A Lit room is one where light is the majority, shadows, or strips/areas of relative darkness, may be present, but ultimately Light is the majority share holder. A dark room on the other hand, is one where "Darkness" prevails, light is all but absent thus the room and area are considered Dark.

As far as lighting goes Bright light would be an area of Light, Dim light would be nearing 50/50, and darkness is obviously heavy dark and shadowed.

Shadows though come in different "thicknesses. A stone wall casting a deep shadow in moonlight is obviously darker than a leaf casting a shadow during the middle of the day. The ambient light saturation makes certain shadows stronger or weaker (this is all how I view it btw) that is why if I want to work on a new ability as a shadowdancer, I work with the shadows on the plane of shadows since they are deeper and more prevalant. Once I am able to work the ability with those shadows then I move to the prime and work my way down untill I can utilize the ability in your run of the mill middle of the day shadows.

So you provide a definition of darkness here (as an area of concentrated shadow) ...but what is the definition of a "Shadow," if the following definition is not valid?

"A dark area or shape produced by a body coming between rays of light and a surface."

If we stray from this definition, by contending that it's a magical force (like positive and negative energy), then why do we use the word Shadow, which is clearly a mundane term? Why is it more likely that the shadow is something supernatural, and not simply a natural effect that can be manipulated by magic?

Why is it unlikely that the Shadow Plane is the Shadow of the Prime Material?

(As an aside, I must say this debate is fun!)

To be honest on the Anitmagic zones and the like for SD powers. I have done researching and the like IC for many years here on Amia. As most here know, a lot of the SD expansion lore is the result of my own take on the Variant Rule seen in the Manual of Planes stating SDs can develop new powers through the Shadow Plane. Myself and a few other DMs over the years have managed to make the homebrew/local lore on Amia's SDs.

Where this has lead us, (All of what is IC) SDs powers are indeed a separate power force from the weave. Similar to Ki and Psionics. IC tests in Antimagic zones have my character at least believing that it is another force in them that blocks some SD abilities, not the lack of the Weave. As may of my fellow SDs have managed to create their own abilities that draw raw from the Shadows, regardless of Antimagic, silence, and spellfailure, etc.

My take a DM is close to my characters (Obviously) except in that its possible the default abilities can be used in dead magic. Looking at the Handbook and SN Abilities of a SD needs some tuning as they are all based on the default SDs which by lore use the Astral Plane to SJ through. I personally stopped worrying about it so the new generation of SDs that were born in Amia's SD Lore can develop more on it. My take is the world can see them as SN just because they don't know enough on it so that is what they assume it is. I like this since it opens researching and ideas from a stand point that we are discovering something new. Its been a long time for me, so don't kill me if I am wrong, but I think it is the Tome of Magic that even contains a template for making new forms of magic.

I am mostly looking to what is more acceptable, are Custom SD abilities that draw raw shadows and function without magic separate from 100% separate from the Default SD powers? I say they are not since many use the Defaults as a base. Perhaps it is the "Greater" versions that seem to no longer need to use the Weave as a "Crutch" so to speak. My ability to debate this is very limited right now due to work, fires and all. I mostly wished to give my stance on it and where my own views lay on the matter as I was a main contributor to the Amia Canon lore on SDs.

As for the "Light Plane" that would rival the Shadow Plane, that would make the most sense to be the Ethereal. The two never touch, each one wanes to the other they move or grow. Both surround the Prime, but never may touch. My Character Brandrik has some theories on the relationship between the two Planes. Mostly on if the two can exist without the other. (Which by some variants they can, since campaigns can remove any plane they want...) I was influenced to look into it based on Yin and Yang, I found the idea to fit quite well.

Mostly I hope this can inspire more in game research and thought outside the box. I will try to check back to this topic when I can. I can't promise long replys.

and by all means, other DMs that disagree with anything I have put here, correct it. (Its late here for me and I have been away from the topic for too long so even I am a bit rusty on things.)

A light plane wouldn't be the opposite of the Shadow Plane, it would be the opposite of a Darkness Plane and both would very likely be obscure demi-planes that are attached to the shadow planes edges and among the countless unexplored and unimportant demi-planes considered to clutter up the multiverse.

I say this because Shadows are not darkness nor light, nor is the shadow plane pitch black it is a realm of perpetual shadows not inky darkness. There are no shadows in pitch darkness. Also given the infinite weirdness and variability of multitudes of demi-planes floating around reality there is probably a demi-plane for everything. Demi-plane of Time, Wood, Dread, Dreams, Nightmares, Mirrors, Darkness, Light, Candy, Ironic Hair Cuts, you name it odds are its out there somewhere and was created by a bored arch-mage, high priest or demi-semi-hemi-god with too much time on his her or its hands.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I must be dumb. I always thought the Ethereal Plane was the opposite of the Shadow Plane. They're the two planes that overlap the Prime.

I do agree with this, with the ethereal plane being the 'counterpart' of the shadow plane. Both planes can be used to travel large distances in the material realm in relative ease. AFAIK, the shadow plane is mainly made up of shadows of creatures and objects in the material realm (meaning that the shadow plane "version" of these objects would be fairly bland and featureless), all set in a grey scale - with areas of deeper darkness and shadow standing out the most. You could say that the shadow plane would be a "negative" of the material realm, to mutilate a photography term.

Similar but different, the ethereal plane would be made up of the "positive" of the material realm. The creatures and objects in it would be similarly indistinct but would be made up of their "reflection". As such, colors would be similarly muted and everything would have a distinct "bright greyscale" appearance. Sort off like an over lit photograph. That's how I visually imagine the ethereal plane to be - as its also associated with spirits and ghosts which are traditionally a muffled white rather than the muffled dark of shadows and shades.

It does raise the question whether Shadowdancers could have an ethereal plane counterpart. While SD's rely on shadows, these could rely on sources of light (and possibly mirrors/reflection).

Also another question on both the Shadow Plane and Ethereal Plane.

Though we've seen this in Neverwinter Nights 2 (where it was a temple of Myrkul), is it canon-wise possible for certain structures or features to exist only in the shadow plane or ethereal plane?

Should be the case, or Shadowscape would make no sense.

Or...you know...Shadovar. >.>

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