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Jes
 
PostPosted: Fri, Feb 15 2013, 10:02 AM 

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Everything you request with the Dragon Disciple prestige class is dependent on the RP. :D

I would imagine you can't just say "I have 20 DD levels. Can I have clawed feet now?" Obviously, I don't expect you'd be one to think that. I'm just illustrating a point. Don't worry about the DD levels. Zelly didn't get her coppery tail until she had 20 levels of DD. Another DD more recently got a tail at level 4 or 5 or something - before the wings.

It is entirely dependent on RP. :wink:

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 24 2013, 3:07 AM 

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Something New has been added to the first post!

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FastKev
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 24 2013, 3:26 AM 

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Concerning the horns for RP purposes. Normally with DC request items like tails, wings, etc, we're not supposed to RP those items until we've been approved for them. When it comes to horns I really can't find any appeal in the widget offerings, or the head that comes w/ horns already since it's a radical difference from what is currently being used. If there's nothing that a player would want to have visually attached regarding horns at least, can we add in our own description to our bio of what they look like and RP having them or no? Can we request horns off a model to be added to the widget that would better fit our character?

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 24 2013, 16:17 PM 

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Yeah, the problem with the current selection of horns for the widget being made openly available to DDs is that only a Red DD benefits. None of those horns fit Zelly, for instance, but I've been RP'ing she has horns for a long time. I suppose there is a female elf head that has horns that would fit her well enough, but that head comes with the stupidly long hair and there isn't a short-hair version. Giving Zelly the stupid-long hair would be ew. :D

Maybe we can look to add more horn options in the future! The current selection is terribly limited.

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 24 2013, 16:36 PM 

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We can't just yoink horns off a model and add it to a widget. It doesn't work like that.

These are pretty much the only nice quality horns we have available. And they're already niche enough a choice as it is, so expanding it to a massive gallery would be kind of a waste of time. :P

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Coil
 
PostPosted: Sun, Feb 24 2013, 16:57 PM 

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At least those horns are somewhat more appropiate looking than those available as head models. Would rather take a pair of unfitting horns than have yet another winged disciple, personally.They would fit any red kin perfectly, though, so perhaps it'll help encourage more chromatics.


 
      
Ice
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 26 2013, 12:00 PM 

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Well then...

*Cracks knuckles, and takes a raise dead scroll out of the legendary pocket of the left shoulder, proceeding to read it lazily*

I have decided long ago what I wanted to do, and how I would create a path for Ais to follow, but what torments me at night are not the horribly amount of mistakes I have taken, RP and mechanical ones, but the ones I did NOT take.
Ladies and gentlemen, and whatever gender DMs are considered; I present to you... the "What if" and questions of Ice 2013:

1) (What if) dragon disciples may be hybrids, not only carrying blood of a dragon, but of two or more?
2) (What if) a person would qualify as dragon disciple (by having a dragon ancestor), even if lacking the spontaneous magic component?
3) (What if) besides the kobold dragonwrought, the same condition may start appearing in other races?
4) (What if) it would be possible to alter the nature of the dragon disciple? (Excluding the previously named ritual of draconic affinity)
5) (Why) does not the magic of the sorcerer and bard is not even affected /in any way/ when progressing through the levels of the dragon disciple?
6) As the dragon disciple's mind is overrided by the draconic blood, would be it possible to override it back partially?
7) (Why) is ...

End of thinking capacity. 7:00 AM.

Most of the questions are retoric, but I'd love to see the answers, anyway.

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NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 26 2013, 12:21 PM 



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Ice wrote:
Well then...

*Cracks knuckles, and takes a raise dead scroll out of the legendary pocket of the left shoulder, proceeding to read it lazily*

I have decided long ago what I wanted to do, and how I would create a path for Ais to follow, but what torments me at night are not the horribly amount of mistakes I have taken, RP and mechanical ones, but the ones I did NOT take.
Ladies and gentlemen, and whatever gender DMs are considered; I present to you... the "What if" and questions of Ice 2013:

1) (What if) dragon disciples may be hybrids, not only carrying blood of a dragon, but of two or more?
2) (What if) a person would qualify as dragon disciple (by having a dragon ancestor), even if lacking the spontaneous magic component?
3) (What if) besides the kobold dragonwrought, the same condition may start appearing in other races?
4) (What if) it would be possible to alter the nature of the dragon disciple? (Excluding the previously named ritual of draconic affinity)
5) (Why) does not the magic of the sorcerer and bard is not even affected /in any way/ when progressing through the levels of the dragon disciple?
6) As the dragon disciple's mind is overrided by the draconic blood, would be it possible to override it back partially?
7) (Why) is ...

End of thinking capacity. 7:00 AM.

Most of the questions are retoric, but I'd love to see the answers, anyway.


Don't take my words for DM ruling, but:

1: The draconomicon specifically states that dragons can interbreed "cross-color", but it's extremely rare. I don't see a multi-color disciple being theoretically impossible, just absurdly unlikely. The nature of the class and rituals is by exploring and magnifying the effects of a specific bloodline, so in essence you'd only be able to ignite one specific color, even if your "sources" were muddled. For the sake of argument, I suppose it would be conceivable that a character could take the class twice, one for each bloodline. Someone with levels in Red Dragon Disciples as well as Blue Dragon Disciple if their ancestor was a "purple dragon" of sorts, but that's not mechanically possible here. If your ancestors were two separate dragons of different color, for the sake of sanity you'd focus on igniting one lineage and letting the other lie dormant.

2: The inherent magic is the spark needed to "light the gasoline" so to speak. I'm sure there's plenty of fighters with a hint of lizard blood, but only bards and sorcs present the magic combo needed to be a full Disciple.

3: I don't know anything about this.

4: Overwhelming opinion on Amia is "no".

5: Because the class is terrible? Heh, unfortunately a lot of balance decisions made by WotC aren't exactly the easiest for a lore-purist to wrap their heads around. The flavor of the class really should give some spellcasting progression. Currently it's purely a mutt class, with middle BAB and stat augmentations.

6: Overwhelming pinon on Amia is "no". HOWEVER, the rules as written only indicate needing to be within one step of the dragon's alignment. To me, this indicates some control of which mental traits the character chooses to exaggerate via the process.

7: 42


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 26 2013, 12:46 PM 

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6 suggests swinging from one interpretive extreme to the other. It was right and proper to begin emphasizing the fact that a dragon disciple willingly embraces their heritage and the mindset that comes with it. To understand the mind of a dragon is a huge step towards becoming like one. But that really shouldn't be taken to mean there's some comprehensive reprogramming that takes over your personality. Most of the change in beliefs and behavior that does happen would be due to you intentionally striving for them. The impulses that come from your dragon blood are probably in response to this, and constitute little more than flaring emotions. A Red Dragon Disciple doesn't so much have this personality and mind overwritten as simply become prone to violent outbursts. Which he can try to learn to control like anyone with anger management issues.

That's not to say you can't play your DD as completely overtaken by compelling forces, but that's not the extent of influence we should expect as the norm. As for resisting your urges and rediscovering your self, I don't see a problem there. It's probably only an issue when you want to advance in levels; the successful performance of the ritual would be dependent on your willing the embrace the dragon within, after all. But this is just fluff and doesn't fall under the official rules, so you can make your own conclusions.

2) I don't see an issue there, other than the mechanical one. Sure, you could come up with justifications for the restriction. But ultimately I see no point; there's no compelling lore reason the story couldn't be told. As long as you figure out the necessary (magical?) competence to begin your ascent, being a spontaneous caster doesn't have much to do with it. The class requirement is iffy anyway, because bards were never meant to have supernatural heritage. If there was a DM event with a Barbarian Dragon Disciple NPC, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. It's not mechanically possible for PCs anyway.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 26 2013, 13:22 PM 

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On #3, while I think it is possible that similar rituals could be developed for other dragon-blooded species, actual Dragonwrought being anything by kobold would not fly (hurrrr) and it chafes me a little thinking about it. Kobolds have a mystical connection with dragons, not just a bloodline, and this bond is reinforced through their frequent servitude to dragons and occult/religious traditions. Dragonwrought is a uniquely kobold thing that arose from their unique circumstances, relation, and creation.


 
      
Ice
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 26 2013, 23:34 PM 

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The people above wrote:
Many words


We can always fix every balance issue with our unlimited ducktape: RP.

On LetumLux: There are a thousand reasons for why Dragonwroughts may exists (you know this far better than me) in the kobold race. What I am talking about would be to find a correct path of excuses that may lead (if not to an unique case) to the birth of something similar. I am not saying they would pop out of tin air and "puff"; new race on Faerûn.
(Anyway, that wasn't a DD question and I should be slapped by a fish for bringing it here)

But mostly, /mostly/ I say now, I am in high expectation to find a dual dragon disciple. It would be, not only mechanically possible if we find the work-arounds... but the hell of a RP. While the island is full of people with mental disorders, this would be the ultimate challenge for the healer-psycologist-therapist-mad scientist. While certain combinations would (possibly) lead to auto-destruction, they also would be quite interesting to see, and not even one of those jumbo-sized boxes of popcorn would be enough to deal with it.



IronAngel wrote:
"Because bards were never meant to have supernatural heritage"

Is not true, is not true! Those are lies!

On 2 of Iron: So, in short words: It would be lore possible (despite the game limitations) to have a NULL talent on magic, and still be a dragon disciple?

5 And 7 of Ninja: Yep, it is. Anyhow, even if that does answer the question, it doesn't bring any insight.
Also, have a cookie. The red jar is the DM's one, the blue for players.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 26 2013, 23:45 PM 

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Well, there's no lore about it. There's no lore about any of your questions, really. Or the class itself. The Prestige Class has the requirement of Bard or Sorcerer, there's no denying that. But given what we know and have made up about the Prestige Class, knowledge of your draconic blood and the means to perform those rituals should be enough. That's just common sense. It just happens that it's generally spontaneous casters who know they have the blood and who also have the means to trigger it.

It boils down to whether there are spells involved in the level-up rituals. And not really even that: anyone could learn a magical ritual if they so wished, it doesn't take any special talent to become a wizard for example.

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Ice
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 27 2013, 1:39 AM 

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IronAngel wrote:
More words!


That... slightly shatters my knowledge on what I thought in first place... And even if I did mistaken my words when I added "lore" to that sentence, it did answer my question.

We have to go deeper.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 27 2013, 1:46 AM 

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How does it shatter the impression you had?

Really: there's barely any lore on Dragon Disciples at all. What you see in the Prestige Class description (in Player's Handbook?) is all there is, and the official DM post at the beginning of this topic adds to the Amia canon. The rest is just speculation.

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 27 2013, 2:00 AM 

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Ice wrote:
1) (What if) dragon disciples may be hybrids, not only carrying blood of a dragon, but of two or more?

It is possible, over the years, for such to occur depending on the region. However, your character would only be able to pick to be a Disciple of -one- of the Dragons in their Ancestry, not multiple.

Ice wrote:
2) (What if) a person would qualify as dragon disciple (by having a dragon ancestor), even if lacking the spontaneous magic component?

The class is specific in its requirements. They may not have developed their arcane talent, but they will have 1 levels of Bard or Sorcerer in there mechanically.

Ice wrote:
3) (What if) besides the kobold dragonwrought, the same condition may start appearing in other races?

The 'condition' of being Dragonwrought is unique to the Kobold race. he fluff of the feat, Dragonwrought, supports Letum's assessment of it being due to the bond/relationship between Kobolds and Dragons.

Now to go a bit 'Inception' style into this: The lore within Kobold Lore on them is that they are a 'blessing of Kurtulmak' bestowed to some females, and by extension, the tribe itself (p.37, 38 Races of the Dragon) The truth of that is debatable, but that is what the typical traditional Warren would believe and what is widely accepted about them.

Ice wrote:
4) (What if) it would be possible to alter the nature of the dragon disciple? (Excluding the previously named ritual of draconic affinity)

It is not. It is a one way trip down a path to unlock the power that dwells in what I tend to refer to as 'the tinted blood of Io' in a character's veins. The 'tint' I refer to is the blood of the ancestor. I came to this opinion based on the mythology of Dragon Kind concerning Io, Tiamat and Bahamut and it is by no means supported by any published lore on the subject (which amounts to very little as it is).

Ice wrote:
5) (Why) does not the magic of the sorcerer and bard is not even affected /in any way/ when progressing through the levels of the dragon disciple?

+2 Charisma Bonus at level 10. It may not advance all of your spells, but it will have an affect on them. Keep in mind that the natural blood of a Dragon may be their connection with the Arcane, but you are unlocking the basic blood of a Dragon. Not all Dragons have a large variety of spells naturally and most Dragons that have troves of them at their disposal tend to have invested class levels in getting access to them. Also, unlocking your blood requires a ritual. There is nothing stating that ritual must be arcane in nature.

Ice wrote:
6) As the dragon disciple's mind is overrided by the draconic blood, would be it possible to override it back partially?

There is not an official ruling on this. However, from observing how most players tend to approach the class, the more levels one has of Dragon Disciple, the stronger they feel pulled to behave like their Ancestor's dragon type. Rules wise though, so long as you remain within 1 step of your ancestor's base alignment, there isn't an issue.

As Iron has stated there isn't much lore to go on. There is only what has been developed and has become 'commonly accepted' by the team and community. There is a lot of freedom to be had.

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Ice
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 27 2013, 4:53 AM 

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This is directed both to Iron and Dust on the 5:
Nobody will deny dragons are beings bound by magic and yada-yada, but I thought that disciples were compelled and forced to be the same way, eventually. I don't mean to say "Oh, you are level 15 on DD? Well then, here, lets unlock some cool draconic magicks for you", but at least to say; as they continue to advance in the path, they improve their magic capability, as if it was a caster class... But that would be my own ignorance. I don't really know what does a sorcerer or a bard do to improve their magic. I am walking blindly on this one.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 27 2013, 5:26 AM 

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In PnP RDD does advance your spellcatsing by giving you bonus spells. I assume engine limitations prevented that from happening in NWN.

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Frantik
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 13 2013, 21:08 PM 



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Me and my friend want to make a brother/sister or half siblings but we are having the conflict of I wanna go Black and he wants to go white. So i would like to know if this is a possible thing if so i can make a logical background for it just need to know my guidelines. And from reading this lore it seems possible since one can have very Diluted blood from a dragon.

Side note can anyone give me info on a shadow dragon?


 
      
Poorsod
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 13 2013, 21:55 PM 



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Frantik wrote:
Side note can anyone give me info on a shadow dragon?

AFAIK, the info on them is really sparse. At least I couldn't find anything besides the following in three books (Monsters of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun, Draconomicon):
Quote:
Shadow dragons are sly and devious creatures with ties to the Plane of Shadow. Shadow dragons have translucent scales and dark bodies, giving them an indistinct appearance – from a distance, they seem to be nothing but a foreboding mass of shadows.

Shadow dragons are most often encountered in the deepest reaches of the lower Underdark – at least ten miles below the surface – where ties to the Plane of Shadow are strongest. On the surface, they have been found from the Frost Hills to the Thunder Peaks. A number of shadow dragons have joined forces with the Cult of the Dragon, and at least two shadow dracoliches are known to be associated with the cult.

Shadow dragons prefer to attack from hiding, employing their shadow blend ability. They use illusion spells to confuse and misdirect their foes.

(I edited a couple of times because I suck. You should take a look at the books for yourself if you need some details about their abilities etc. I should mention that the dragons are CE, I guess.)


 
      
Liz
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 13 2013, 22:12 PM 

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Frantik wrote:
Me and my friend want to make a brother/sister or half siblings but we are having the conflict of I wanna go Black and he wants to go white. So i would like to know if this is a possible thing if so i can make a logical background for it just need to know my guidelines. And from reading this lore it seems possible since one can have very Diluted blood from a dragon.

Just one person's completely non-official opinion: it's of course possible. But it seems preposterously unlikely, to the point of straining credulity. But if you think you can pull it off awesomely, go for it.

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Frantik
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 14 2013, 5:18 AM 



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Liz wrote:
Frantik wrote:
Me and my friend want to make a brother/sister or half siblings but we are having the conflict of I wanna go Black and he wants to go white. So i would like to know if this is a possible thing if so i can make a logical background for it just need to know my guidelines. And from reading this lore it seems possible since one can have very Diluted blood from a dragon.

Just one person's completely non-official opinion: it's of course possible. But it seems preposterously unlikely, to the point of straining credulity. But if you think you can pull it off awesomely, go for it.


Well i mean earlier posts show its is possible and from what is required is to be aligned and do a ritual for said dragon i see no problems since we are like a duo problem i'm the smart one hes the muscle


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 14 2013, 5:22 AM 

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Two different color dragons in the same bloodline seems very... stretching it.

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1337VV4ff135
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 14 2013, 5:52 AM 

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Frantik wrote:
Side note can anyone give me info on a shadow dragon?

As was previously mentioned, Shadow Dragons are not necessarily "extraplanar" as some would believe, and do not have the Extraplanar subtype. Instead, they simply have bonds to the Plane of Shadows itself. These bonds manifest both physically, as well as in a variety of supernatural abilities. The following is a list of these abilities, as taken from pages 191-192 of "Draconomicon: The Book of Dragons."

Draconomicon wrote:
Breath Weapon (Su): A shadow dragon's breath weapon is a cone of billowing, smoky shadows with an energy drain effect. Creatures within the cone gain the number of negative levels indicated on the Shadow Dragons by Age table; the saving throw to remove the negative level is given on the table as well. A successful Reflex save (against the same DC) reduces the number of negative levels by half (rounded down).

Shadow Blend (Su): In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a very young or older shadow dragon can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability. A daylight spell, however, does.

Create Shadows (Su): Three times per day, a great wyrm shadow dragon can conjure a mass of leaping shadows with a radius of 100 yards and a duration of 1 hour (this is a creation effect). All normal and magical light sources are negated within this radius. All characters and creatures gain a +4 bonus on their Hide checks within the shadows, and can hide even if directly observed. Shadow dragons and other creatures with ties to the Plane of Shadows gain total concealment within the shadows, though they can move and attack normally. Their attacks gain a +2 bonus and deny their opponents any Dexterity bonus to AC, because they are considered invisible.

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day---mirror image, nondetection; 2/day---dimension door; 1/day---shadow walk.


While obviously, most of these abilities and spells are unavailable in the base NWN game and Amia without the appropriate roleplay, it's still nice to know the facts and general abilities of the Shadow Dragon if you ever intend to play one!


 
      
P Three
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 14 2013, 7:30 AM 

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They are also the nastiest of the nasty bastard dragons.

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Kamina
 
PostPosted: Fri, Nov 22 2013, 21:38 PM 

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DustSpray101 wrote:
From here on out, we will be allowing Dragon Disciples to take a different Draconic mutation in the form of Tail or Horns in place of Wings, for FREE at level 9 of the Dragon Disciple Class with an approved request. If you choose to go this route, you may request the other mutations at later levels, with requests, at their standard DC cost.


I'm considering forwarding my Green Disciple's heritage, how do the horns work? Are they coloured with your skin or do they have default colours?

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when met"

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Ice
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 02 2013, 11:50 AM 

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There's this wonder running up my mind.

Let's say a character is dragon blooded, but the blood is innactive:
Is there -any- way for the blood to start acting (IE; abilities, compelling effects, etc) when still cold/unignited?
Or would be blood -only- cause sorcerous spellcasting in that character until ignited?

And here goes another, not directly related to RDDs:

Could a non-spellcasting kobold RP minor, almost unexistant, control of the magic due to the sorcerous nature of the koboldkin? As if it was a "sorcerer level 0.5"

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Kamina
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 02 2013, 14:23 PM 

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(My last question got answered by someone in game, by the way!)

I need to also ask some DrD lore.

-Is it possible to gain a Dragon form through mutations? If so, how is the size affected by the disciple? I know that for both Shapechange and Dragon Shape you are simply emulated a Dragon's appearance, but would a, say, 30 year old disciple who gained this ability turn in to a dragon who looked as if they were 30 in size and stature in accordance to their colour?

-I asked this to you in a PM DustSpray, but to save it getting lost: Are there any of both the Dark Flight's, Bahamut's chosen or other Dragon hoards left undiscovered/unlooted? One would assume those who actually had their own lair (and being an attackable enemy in some cases) would imply that was their hoard, but what about those who have been shown to live on Amia without any lair being in the module or discovered as of yet?

-I've never played a Metallic so I'm sure someone who's visited Kohlingen's Keep being one can probably answer for me, are Disciples able to communicate with Guardian Spirit Dragons like their full-blooded ancestors can? To quote 3/3.5's Draconomicon: Book of Dragons "Guardianship: At the end of its normal life, a dragon can elect to become a guardian, literally transforming into part of the landscape. After the dragon consumes its hoard, it changes itself into a geographic feature: hills, mountains, lakes, swamps, and groves seem to be the most common choices. Such areas become favorite places for dragons to lay their eggs. It is said that no nest of dragon eggs laid in such a locale will ever be disturbed. Wyrmling dragons living in the site are said to commune with the guardian spirit, receiving the knowledge they need to become strong adults."

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when met"

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 02 2013, 20:56 PM 

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Location: Night Vale

Yaster Galer wrote:
-Is it possible to gain a Dragon form through mutations? If so, how is the size affected by the disciple? I know that for both Shapechange and Dragon Shape you are simply emulated a Dragon's appearance, but would a, say, 30 year old disciple who gained this ability turn in to a dragon who looked as if they were 30 in size and stature in accordance to their colour?

The form is possible to obtain through rituals (epic level Dragon Disciple). As it is a projection, it is of the age desired by the individual during their ritual (which requires a request).

Yaster Galer wrote:
-I asked this to you in a PM DustSpray, but to save it getting lost: Are there any of both the Dark Flight's, Bahamut's chosen or other Dragon hoards left undiscovered/unlooted? One would assume those who actually had their own lair (and being an attackable enemy in some cases) would imply that was their hoard, but what about those who have been shown to live on Amia without any lair being in the module or discovered as of yet?

I left this unanswered on purpose. It is IC information and you can search for it there. There is not a OOC counter for lairs looted.

Yaster Galer wrote:
-I've never played a Metallic so I'm sure someone who's visited Kohlingen's Keep being one can probably answer for me, are Disciples able to communicate with Guardian Spirit Dragons like their full-blooded ancestors can? To quote 3/3.5's Draconomicon: Book of Dragons "Guardianship: At the end of its normal life, a dragon can elect to become a guardian, literally transforming into part of the landscape. After the dragon consumes its hoard, it changes itself into a geographic feature: hills, mountains, lakes, swamps, and groves seem to be the most common choices. Such areas become favorite places for dragons to lay their eggs. It is said that no nest of dragon eggs laid in such a locale will ever be disturbed. Wyrmling dragons living in the site are said to commune with the guardian spirit, receiving the knowledge they need to become strong adults."

Like the above, this would be something to discover in game should you find a true dragon from the local area.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
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waswar
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 15 2018, 22:03 PM 

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Joined: 22 Nov 2013

I know this is quite old and settled some years ago, but I actually quite dislike this sort of ruling. And the reason I quite dislike this sort of ruling is that it's ultimately dismissive and restrictive really for no practical reason whatsoever. Like the Pale Master lore, this honestly comes across as a sort of lore to make the class unnecessarily restrictive, and I daresay, even counter-productive due to some shabby homebrew lore no one new to the server would know anything about and yet could be punished for defying, particularly with the new-player unfriendly rebuild restrictions on the two classes.

I do know a particular person who quit the server because the character they were playing took Pale Master levels without knowing about the homebrew lore because they wanted to play a specialist Necromancer, and when they found out, their total rebuild requests were denied because they were unable to get in-character help to reverse the situation, effectively ruining the character they put all their time into. With similar restrictions on Dragon Disciples past a certain level, I find this enforcement to be quite dire considering the unavoidable consequences that one wouldn't know since it's only on the forums, but its required to act out.

The necessitation of a measly 8 lore being required to take the class being justification for having to embrace and embodify the specif strain of Dragon Blood is a rather arbitrary and restrictive clause, in my opinion. Seeing as Bard or Sorcerer levels are required to take this class, I see no reason to not codify something as "I have Magic powers, and thus I might have Dragon Blood!" or "I have this slightly different trait, maybe I have Dragon Blood?" And performing the ritual without knowing the specific strain of Dragon Blood, but simply putting two-and-two together and ending up with the blood they have, and having to face the conundrum as time goes on, instead of saying "Welp in my 8 lore I know exactly what strain I have and how they act and I give Paladins permission to behead me because I know I'll become affably evil!"

Another reason I find this quite counter-productive is because it removes a possibly interesting strain of roleplay. Unfortunately, as-is, most Dragon Disciples effectively play out mostly the same, because the alignment shifts are right from the get-go. On the contrary, I think it would be far more interesting to have characters take Dragon Disciple levels and only find out the strain is affecting their personality and mind later on. Would one not find it more interesting to have a good character take Chromatic Disciple levels and reconcile their good motivations but have to fight the strain that affects their personality, and face inner turmoil as a result, but continue taking their rituals as they've noticed, with their strength, they are better able to enforce their goodly wills when their actions aren't tainted by their bloodline, but weigh total morality with the strength to defend good causes? And also, face being a pariah in spite of their good intentions as they're banished from certain areas? Or even have an evil character take Metallic levels and face prospects of taking certain, redemptive actions?

This decision removes the prospect of all morally grey actions to be taken in regards to the class. It's yet another enforcement forced black-and-white qualifications upon the in-game world. I find it rather strange that, repeatedly, evil characters are told to be more subtle if they wish to survive, but if an evil character of DD or BG levels does not immediately embodify something due to a desire to remain secret to advance their agenda, they're told they're "doing it wrong" because they're simply not allowed to be secretive. How the Hell can you tell players that they must be "smart evil", but punish them for doing exactly that in practice?

Now, due to the nebulous reasoning, I honestly find two undesirable reasons for this outcome. The one is more akin to intellectual laziness, whilst the other is more dubious and even nefarious. The first possible reason is that people do not want to have to face the possibility of having a Dragon Disciple of a different codified alignment or even facing consequences of killing potentially neutral blood-enemies. Or better yet, having a potentially good character face alignment shifts as they take a particular strain as time goes down the line. As-is, a character basically has to have evil intentions to take Chromatic levels, and vice versa.

The second possible reason and one that is more nefarious in general is that the good metallic Dragons from the Kohlingen hegemony support this, simply so they can play militaristic good dragon disciples and effectively roflstomp those oh-so-evil Chromatic Dragons, and not have to worry about slaying them horribly and facing consequences over doing so. You see, it's justified. They're by their nature, irredemptively evil. So it's okay for us to fly in and smite them. Because it's in their nature, yo! It's fine to slay them horribly, because they're evil, and unlike with Drow, we have an OOC enforcement against having any sort of grey morality in regards to them! How about downgrading them from objectively good actions in slaying objectively evil, to even have potentially reversed alignments slaying each other because it's in their nature, making their actions amoral and neutral as a result? Or is such a lack of alignment categorization undesirable on Amia? Are we better off just killing that lawful neutral warrior figure because he has a few blue scales, since we're saying "Not only does he have this blood, but we're OOC-ly enforcing that he knew and is embracing the evil part of it! So it's okay to murder and eviscerate and torture them since performing evil against an evil character is fine!"

And don't take this as my saying that the personality shouldn't be injected by their ancestral blood. But I think, since they're not even required to take all the traits, it should be fine to have a neutral or even amiable Blue Dragon Disciple who just happens to be very prideful and very materialistic without necessarily being malevolent as a result, for example. Seeing as Dragon Disciples never become Half-Dragons whom are request only, I don't think they should have to embodify everything to a T. Yes, they should be enforced, but perhaps it would be more interesting to have alignment and personality shifts as time goes on or as they try to do good or evil but are distracted by the traits that cloud their motivations, rather than enforcing them right from the start?


 
      
Kamina
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 16 2018, 13:50 PM 

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DM

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.

waswar wrote:
Another reason I find this quite counter-productive is because it removes a possibly interesting strain of roleplay. Unfortunately, as-is, most Dragon Disciples effectively play out mostly the same, because the alignment shifts are right from the get-go. On the contrary, I think it would be far more interesting to have characters take Dragon Disciple levels and only find out the strain is affecting their personality and mind later on. Would one not find it more interesting to have a good character take Chromatic Disciple levels and reconcile their good motivations but have to fight the strain that affects their personality, and face inner turmoil as a result, but continue taking their rituals as they've noticed, with their strength, they are better able to enforce their goodly wills when their actions aren't tainted by their bloodline, but weigh total morality with the strength to defend good causes? And also, face being a pariah in spite of their good intentions as they're banished from certain areas? Or even have an evil character take Metallic levels and face prospects of taking certain, redemptive actions?


These aren't out of the question, realistically, though would need DM oversight and/or constant alignment bump requests. Though, a lot of people who research Dragon Disciplehood realise quickly that it is something that affects the mind, thus an Evil person who is Evil for the sake of being Evil will probably not bother ("Ugh, if I do this, my mind won't WANT to kill random rich people for money, only obtaining things for noble reason!") and likewise a Good character may not do so because they would foresee their dilemma.

But it's not out of the question for someone of an opposing or "not overly close to" alignment to have draconic heritage that spurs them towards a new one. But to put it quite simply, you're not going to find a Red Disciple petting the kittens at the orphanage and fighting alignside Paladins to save a princess in trouble, but you could BE someone who had that in mind only to have it out of their grasp.

The ruling is pretty much simply that the more devoted you are to activating the blood, the closer to "fully-blooded" you become.

_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers
are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and
unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder
when met"

-Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5e.


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 30 2018, 22:36 PM 



DM

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

I mean the character's personality has to change with the draconic metamorphosis..without that it wouldn't even happen. That's one of the major reason why the alignment thing is preset.

The other reason was that players actually roleplayed their PCs as "victims" claiming both IC and OOC that it was not the choice of their character or it is an accident that they were born with. Consider that it was next level BS, restrictions and class descriptions had to be implemented.

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Glendil Fettian, the black bard Image


 
      
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