AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Help Tormak Fix His Campaign: What If... Bhaal has Godsbane?

Okay, so, the shorthand is that in my campaign, set in the Time of Troubles, Shar is about to get the Portfolio of Magic. you know, her lifelong goal.

The longhand is in here:

Quote:

Torin S. says
So, uh
you know Shar, right?
You're good with Shar.
Mahtan Tasadur says
Yeah
Torin S. says
My campaign went off the fucking rails last night.
You know I run a time of troubles campaign right?
Mahtan Tasadur says
Yeah you mentioned it
Torin S. says
It's gone a little wacky, and now it's gone really wacky, end of campaig nsetting wacky.
Cyric lost Godsbane and Bhaal has it. That's the EASY thing to deal with.
What happened after that was Shar found Cyric, angry and despondent, and gave him what he needed to eexact revenge on the party.
Um, what I didn't expect is that my plan actually worked, I killed 3 PCs, almost killed Midnight (mortal Mystra-to-be), stole the portfolio of magic and escaped unscathed.
I
uh, cyric is about to meet with Shar with the portfolio of magic
Mahtan
what happens if Shar wins
._.
Mahtan Tasadur says
O.o So Mightnight lost but isn't dead?
Torin S. says
midnight never got mystra's powers, a PC did.
A kobold sorceror.
Mahtan Tasadur says
<_<
Torin S. says
Midnight's just been palling along, so has Kelemvor, who now has Torms powers because torm died, but not in the way it happened in the books.
Mahtan Tasadur says
And you are worried about Shar winning?

Torin S. says
so AO isn't making the exception, he's just dead and Kelemvor will be the new God of Valor and Paladinss.
Uh
Mahtan Tasadur says
Mystra might be a Kobold Sorcerer

Torin S. says
Not at this rate!
He got killed and lost the portfolio! Cyric has it now!
Mahtan Tasadur says
Oh gotcha
Torin S. says
And Shar will probably just murder him to take it back and tie up loose ends
And then Shar has all the weave. Like, her millenia long goal? She can do it in about 2 hours campaign time.
in 4th edition they say NOTHING when she does this and she just creates the Shadowfell.
It was literally so bad they just pretended that it didn't happen. FR writer sdon't even know.
On top of this, Bhaal is still on his rampage and Myrkul is bout to actually uscceed with his plan with the tablets because the party decided to sidetrack and fight Cyric.
ON TOP OF THIS, Mask has all of Bane's portfolios, and all of Gwaeron Windstrom's.
Mahtan Tasadur says
Well She'd become the goddess of Magic, I'd expect the world to be similar to Ravenloft in their take on magic.
So all magic user would be seen as evil and stuff
Torin S. says
That was my first though. Ravenloft world, all becomes weave-shadow weave-y.
Mahtan Tasadur says
Yep
Torin S. says
I'm going to post a lore post because I had three weeks to figure this out before next session.
And if the toT ends with shar in control of magic, that's bad.
Mahtan Tasadur says
And since Mask has everything.. I kinda think he'd steal some crap from Mommy Shar
Torin S. says
He's still swordbound atm.
He and Bhaal have a deal going.
Bhaal is pissed that Bane and Myrkul left him out of the tablet stealing plan and wants to kill Myrkul. Mask says fine, in return they don't fuck with each other, Mask keeps Gwaeron windstrom's power (because Bane killed Gwaeron and then Mask killed Bane via Godsbane) and Bhaal gets the powers of the Dead Three.
Mask never seemed the type to want fear and tyranny anyways imo, he'd prefer shadowy over in your face bane fist
Mahtan Tasadur says
I'd see it as a world where the Sharran faith is no longer hidden. More like they are open and dominate in a Dictatorship over the world. No one has magic but them.
Yes but Mask still hates Shar.
Torin S. says
If Shar did that, AO would force her to grant it to everyone like he did with Mystra trhough.
Mahtan Tasadur says
He'd want to make it his way.
Torin S. says
It'd be in reverse, evil would only have magic for a bit and AO would step in
Mahtan Tasadur says
But Shar would still be Dominate
Torin S. says
and yes, Mask would mess with shar more if he had more power more than likely
but he also knows that while he's stuck with bhaal, he has to pretty much do what Bhaal says.
Mahtan Tasadur says
I think she'd even still have to approve them.
Torin S. says
And that means temporarily making a deal to cede the powers of the dead three he has
Even if he doesn't follow through
Mahtan Tasadur says
Or they go insane without the Willsaves
Its open to everyone, but they will get screwed
Shes evil and would probably have some loophole like that
Torin S. says
Anyways, I'm going to make alore topic post becauseI want to pick brains about this since there's *nothing* for it.
Do you care if I copy this MSN convo to make giving the context easier?
Saves me typing twice.
Mahtan Tasadur says
Thats fine.
Best expample I think is what we both thought, Ravenloft kinda feel. Only all FR
How Ao will handle it though I am not 100% sure
I find it hard to think Shar wouldn't find some way to get her way though. Since she has all the power of Magic. Its just the Time of Troubles Ao is actually described as paying attenion to stuff.
I also think we'd never lose the cap on magic
We'd still have 10+ spells
Torin S. says
That's already instated. Mystryl did that pre ToT
Karsus was waaay before that.
I suppose Shar might lift it for special people, i.. her priests.
I mean, shar is primordial but Ao is still Ao. I imagine she'd throw in a loophole but I do still see him saying "you need to give magic to everyone" because when Midnight only gave it to good aligned mortals, a much better outcome for the world, he made her give it to everyone regardledss of race and alignment.

~

I'm looking for help and to pick the lore filled brains about what might happen in this situation because I literally o not know what happens if, in about 2 game hours, Shar meets with Cyric and gets the portfolio. If the ToT ends with her still in possession of it, then the unthinkable occurs and she's Goddess of All Magic and things probably go pretty damn badly from there.

Help would be greatly appreciated. If you have any questions about the wacky crazy lore for the setting if you need clarification, ask.

I made this in the Lore forum because it's still Lore and I figured it'd be more relevant here than in the Off Topic forum, but hey, move it if it's needed.

PS: YES LETUM A KOBOLD SORCEROR WAS ON THE WAY TO BECOMING GOD OF ALL MAGIC.

I have what might be a really useful bit on Mystra/Shar and the Weave/Shadow Weave for you. Give me a moment to find it.

P.S. HELL YES DO THAT INSTEAD.

Okay, here we go. This is something I stumbled across on Candlekeep and saved for my own considerations/games.

Quote:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10250&whichpage=4

Indeed. It's specifically noted on pg. 12:- "The Rite of Unwinding is a Sharran ritual intended to suppress the Weave in an ever-expanding region, slowly creating a dead magic zone to suppress the Weave without actually destroying it (which would also cause the Shadow Weave in the area to collapse.)"

Plus, the bit from Ed [Mar. '06]:-

"The concept of darkfire or shadowfire is attractive, but to champion it requires a misunderstanding of what the Shadow Weave really is. It’s NOT (despite the propaganda betimes put out by the clergy of Shar) a separate (and equal) system of magic to the Weave; rather, it exists as an echo of the Weave, matching and surpassing the Weave only when Shar personally feeds it with her divine power (and, being an essentially a selfish, ruthless entity, such feedings will be rare acts indeed; she doesn’t CARE what happens to mortal worshippers).
Spellfire is the raw energy of magic, a taste of the way magic was before there was a Weave, restricted (in some small ways) by the Weave (that is, by the will of Mystra). The Shadow Weave works by drawing on this same energy, so there is no shadowfire: there is only spellfire. Shar as a divine power could give certain of her mortal followers a “darkfire” analagous to the silver fire of Mystra (sharing her divine power, in other words), IF she desired to.
She could not give the Shadow Weave users spellfire, because it, by its very nature, consumes and rends shadow weave-magic far more swiftly and more widely than it does Weave-based spells.
To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse).
Remember, the Weave isn’t the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells.
The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other “systems” of harnessing energies (“magical forces,” most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn’t provide users is “shadowfire” or darkfire as it’s been discussed in this thread thus far.
Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can’t do, what Shar can and can’t do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can’t do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren’t static; there will inevitably be “developments” in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I’m in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else."

Basically, what this implies to me is that Shar might be in over her head. Yes, she's one of the two original, primordial deities, but she's also never been about nourishing, tending and empowering something as vast and nuanced as the Weave to flourish for mortal use. The void of oblivion, IMO, doesn't really take that kind of attention and effort - it simply IS.

If Ao is up there with the godhammer, ready to keep everything in line with its godly children, and is enforcing that gods who take portfolios use them appropriately, then Shar must become the goddess of magic and she must be good (lowercase g) at it to keep it. If she is okay with doing that and doing and good job at it, then it's probably going to be (insert coolest holiday here) for the people who worship Shar, because while I don't think she would be allowed to deny magic to everyone else, she probably could still also empower the Shadow Weave in tandem with the Weave, and with that kind of power, provide an immense boost to her faithful that employ the Shadow Weave. Hell, she might even find a way to diminish the Weave just so, just enough, without it also equally diminishing the Shadow Weave.

She could also just shove the portfolio of Magic/the Weave off on someone else, so she could continue to be bitter and hateful about it, and thus continue to focus on her own nefarious schemes while having the Weave under her thumb.

It sort of boils down to what Shar really wants, in your campaign. Does she want to unmake all of creation ASAP? If so, she can't necessarily do that yet - not for certain, anyway, and the attempt would likely cost her this new porfolio if not more than that. Does she want to revel in her hatred and spite? Does she want to tear her lambent sister out of the sky? What is her immediate focus?

Shar coming to the fore was entirely accidental. The focus was supposed to remain on Bane and Myrkul but this development changed things extremely rapidly. I don't think ASAP unmaking would be on the tabe, nor do I think Shar would be keen with having to give magic to the very people who constantly seek to undo her work. But she would want to be able to control it. Selune is always an option. I'm not sure of any ToT material regarding Selune.

Imagine if Shar went and found and slew Selûne! Oh, man. Subsuming not only her "daughter" and but also her sister/twin aspect. That makes the Dark Moon Heresy a lot more valid. Haha.

Honestly, if Shar was already getting everything she wanted (the Weave), I don't think her personality would lend to stopping. IMO, she would keep going and try to snuff out the light of her sister as well, unless there is some reason she can't in your campaign (like cosmic balance, Ao-ic intervention). She could even say "fuck it" and once she got the Weave, horribly abuse it just long enough to assure her victory over Selûne at the cost of having the magic portfolio taken from her afterward. It depends on how Hardcore Mode and nihilistic your Shar is.

I don't know how you want to interpret your gods. In their ToT incarnations, they're very much like individual persons. But there's one thing to keep in mind: taking on a new portfolio is bound to affect the god and cause gradual change. Shar as she is currently wouldn't worry about using magic ruthlessly for her own purposes even at the cost to the Weave/Shadow Weave itself. But if she were to truly become the goddess of magic, she'd have to develop some responsibility for it, because it becomes a part of who she is. I suppose gods can just hoard portfolios and use them like tools for a while, but holding onto one will soon influence who the god is.

I don't know if this helps you find any specific solutions. But it's justified to assume a god's personality and behavior will change when her portfolio's change, even if she would retain a lot of her old self too. So you don't have to worry so much about what Shar as she is now would do, but rather what she would become if she fully embraced her new portfolios as part of her essence.

Personally I think she'd pervert magic to make it suit her nihilistic purposes. Best way to do that would be empower the Weave and Shadow Weave together, to encourage the recreation of something like Netheril on a global scale. Then, all you have to do is Karsus' Folly 2.0 once everyone's wholly dependent on magic.

Goodbye, world.

Is Selune just standing aside and letting this stuff happen? How about Mystra's BFF, Azuth? Can they be warned that this terrible thing is about to happen, and gang up on Shar to oppose it? (Assuming you want it stopped, that is.)

The party is actually buddied with Azuth right now. At the risk of giving people aneurisms, they are working with Savras, Azuth, and Oghma, and have a tenuous alliance with Malar to hunt down Cyric and desperately try to find him before he reaches Shar.

I figure it dramatically appropriate for them to find him right when they meet, since they're putting the tracking in my hands, not a PC's skill.

So this encounter will be, uh, interesting. Shar will meet Cyric and the party will be there with Azuth, Oghma, and Malar.

Selune I haven't used much yet because I don't know what happens with her in the Time of Troubles, AND the party hasn't actively made moves to interact with her or find her, and so I figure I'll stick with their cadre of allies. Since shar tends to be secretive, and nothing happened between them in canon FR ToT, I find it reasonable to stick to that unless the PCS change it by seeking Selune out. They don't seem like they want to, preferring the direct gods of magic, Azuth, Savras, and then Oghma who was hanging around with Azuth at Candlekeep.

I would so love to be there to see what takes place lol

The was I see it, if Shar wins, she's jerked into the same position Midnight was. The Magic portfolio to me is huge enough where it doesn't matter what you are, you become its embodiment by default, although your true self may still show through in how you portray yourself and your clergy.

So Shar becomes the tender of both the Weave and Shadow Weave, perhaps even combining the two. Magic takes the form of something like the Warp in WH40k, where you can use it for "good", but it does ultimately spawn from a pretty dark and chaotic place. Shar shifts more neutral, in that she can't deny magic to good mortals and gods any more than Mystra could deny it to evil ones. Magic, once looked upon as a generally auspicious force in Faerun shifts into a darker font. It is now a selfish tool that is ultimately seen as forcefully imposing your will over something or someone else. While the Weave still exists as its normal self for the most part, the separation with the Shadow Weave has become lesser. The slight increase in arcanists going "mad with power" or "bind with righteous indignity" or "lost in the numbers" would suggest one thing: the inevitable fate of any spellcasters is to become a slave to their own desires for good, for order, for evil, or chaos.

Omg, those Red Hand wackos were right?!?!

Not sure its anywhere in D&D lore but... (and yes Im completely stealing the idea from Wheel of Time) Perhaps Shar could simply taint or corrupt the weave? So yes people can use it like before but now they slowly go mad from use over time or their body breaks down etc. Anyways, just an idea.

WinterBlaze wrote:

(and yes Im completely stealing the idea from Wheel of Time)

Shar already does this for the Shadow Weave, so...

then why not simply infect the whole weave? that would give it the dark undertone and give a view of hate for people who use magic and such. I'm sure Shar would also be able to keep her dedicated followers from going -completely- mad as well.

No solutions offered, but a question instead: Would Shar just use the weave to make her own weave better? Wouldn't Shar, by now, have some kind of pride in her own junk rather than the thing she's coveted when presented to her? She would be just as likely to replace it with her own for complete control of everything.

Typically jealousy in the form of imitation takes ugly forms of delusion when used by crazy people.

Revile things out of your reach.

Quote:

Would Shar just use the weave to make her own weave better? Wouldn't Shar, by now, have some kind of pride in her own junk rather than the thing she's coveted when presented to her?

Entirely possible, and something I'd considered too. It gets touched on up above as well.

My last player should be back this week or the next and I'll be able to tell you whhat happened. At that point it could probably go into Off topic though since it's even more just be talking about my campaign and less to do with Lore questions.

Well..... If Shar became the god of magic, I can see the entire character of magic changing, along with Shar's Clergy as a whole, probably mingling with her existing Portfolio. My Interpretations would be...

Darkness spells would probably be empowered, with light spells being weaker and harder to cast. In 3rd Edition, 3.5 Or Pathfinder I would probably represent that by increasing the level of light spells, and decreasing the level of Darkness spells. Darkness becoming a 1st level spell etc.

A Whole new slew of spells which specialise in dabbling with memories, feelings of grief, loss, despair, would probably appear, either with her followers researching them or knowledge of them being granted to her followers to advance her schemes.

If she has killed Ibrandul by now (I am not sure if she has in your campaign) the Drow will probably be loving life with her new portfolio of the Underdark meaning that Magic might well be more powerful down there. This may mean that Shar starts to get a noticeable following within The Drow Society, earning the emnity of Lloth.

Although she would have to be somewhat neutral in her dishing out of magic, with her mastery of the Shadowweave and her specialisation in secrets as well, I think there would end up being some bias. So Many evil gods would want to court Shar to try and get in her good books, so that her followers get slightly more favour when it comes to magical means.

Speaking of Secrets, her followers would probably covet secrets which have been lost to mankind as a whole, Such as searching for the Imaskarcarana artefacts, lost netherscrolls, and other such things so that Shar, and her Clergy have the monopoly on lost or unrevealed magical secrets.

Just a few thoughts. Have fun

Disaster was averted, so Shar didmn't get everything but Malar got killed. Selune claimed his part of domain over lycanthropes and the frogman Grippli PC has Hunting.

Time for nother silly question.

Let's pretend for a moment that Bhaal got Godsbane. Because he did.

What would Bhaal DO with it? Assume that he knows Mask is inside, because Mask didn't want to piss off Bhaal and risk dying to the god of murder. Assume Mask is cooperative and allows Bhaal to use the powers he's drained from Bane as part of the agreement, which means Bhaal, as well as his usual self and Masks' powers, has all of Bane's portfolios, as well as Gwaeron Windstrom, Tracker of the North, at his disposal.

Right now the scenario I've cooked up has Bhaal pissed at Myrkul for Bane/Myrkul leaving him out of their plan to take the tablets of fate, because it's really the only time the Dead three don't work together as a trio. So Bhaal would be hunting down Myrkul and eventually, successfully, due to Gwaeron Windstrom's powers.

But what happens if they meet? If Cyric, a snivelly little mortal who, according to my dorking about on Google, was all of a 2e level 6 when he managed to kill Bhaal with Godsbane... well, I'm not even sure what Bhaal himself could accomplish with an even more powerful Godsbane. Would Myrkul just cut Bhaal in to stop himself from dying? would Bhaal even care at that point? Assuming he doe skill Myrkul, he now has all of the powers of the Dead Three... if Mask gives them up. At this point he probably just stabs Mask in the back, snaps the sword over his knee and takes them all.

halp

I see two paths, myself: the first is the one you described, Tormak. Bhaal uses Godsbane to kill Myrkul and then shafts Mask. How, if at all, the Crown of Horns figures into all of this I'm not sure, but you could potentially claim that Myrkul has invested enough of his divine essence into it to allow him to plot against Bhaal.

The second option is that Bhaal agrees to work with Myrkul. Between the two of them, Godsbane and the Tablets of Fate, they're pretty much guaranteed to win, in the end. Bhaal never truly struck me as the kind of deity to go apeshit, to be honest. It's just my opinion (and I might be 100% wrong), but a cold and calculating personality would fit him better. It's also stated that "Bhaal and Myrkul have an unbreakable, symbiotic alliance" which may endure even after Bhaal was left our of the loop by Myrkul and Bane.

So... pretty much what was said above. I'd personally lean toward the latter, but in the end it's probably best to go with the option that makes the most sense given the circumstances in which those characters find themselves at the time.

Help Tormak Fix His Campaign: What If... Bhaal has Godsbane?

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