I was always toying with the idea of creating a pure dragon knight and I do fancy Chronepsis the most - which leads to a knight of Chronepsis with a bit of the dragon disciple.

The question I have stumbled upon and have no idea how to solve is - what dragon "type" should be a knight of Chronepsis? According to PrC describtion here, one may choose the appearence and dragon breath whilst taking the Dragon disciple class.

Quote from Wiki - The Watcher, as Chronepsis is known, appears as a colorless dragon with dull, decaying skin through which yellowed bones poke, making him an outsider in the struggle between metallic and chromatic dragonkind. A magical brass harp hovers above his head.

My question is - what type of dragon should I pick for my knight? I cannot figure it out myself, I would like to hear your thoughts.

_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

I don't really know much about the dragon knight. But, I know a bit about Chronepsis. He's revered by all (dragons), yet followed by few. It'd probably most likely be someone who had a particular personal event that so thoroughly changed them, that it led them to venerate the god of fate, judgment, and death above all others. Balance is not really something most chromatic or metallic dragons or dragon-blooded creatures tend to embrace on their own. Those who follow Chronepsis don't like to interfere. They are Watchers and Observers. The Chromatics tend toward manipulating things to get their evil hearts' desire. The Metallics tend toward manipulating things for the greater good.

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Chronepsis is the dragon version of Kelemvor (or Jergal), as he is the draconic god of the afterlife

Guys, thanks, but this is all known.

My question is - what type of dragon disciple should I take. Chronepsis himself is a combination of metallic and chromatic dragon. I cannot decide which one suits his followers better.

_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

If you want to play this character idea, but can't see where it fits into Chromatics and Metallics, why not request another dragon type?

There are plenty of neutral dragons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

With a good request you could play a disciple of any of them.

Yes, personally I think none of the eleven Amia-allowed ones would be a good choice for Chronepsis, especially for a Dragon Disciple character. When you become a Dragon Disciple, you specifically embrace the nature and mindset of your ancestor dragon, which goes completely against the balance Chronepsis teaches.

I would suggest you read up on other dragon types who are removed from the Chromatic/Metallic blood feud. A Battle Dragon Disciple could make an interesting Chronepsis Knight.

(Alternatively, make a non-dragon disciple knight of Chronepsis?)

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As much fun as a religious debate can be...I don't think there is a specific type of dragon that is more or less prone to following Chronepsis. The individual personality of the character, as well as their own experiences which led them to Chronepsis is much more significant to RP than any specific genotype.
I struggled with this same question when I created Lilith Vorel Marfedelom, devout of Falazure. I went more for the personality traits I wanted to incorporate into her rather than what stereotype would work.

Edit: trying to post at work...I will finish my thought once I am done laboring for the day.

Final edit (off work, woohoo): my objective in mentioning Lilith and Falazure in this thread was to relate my understanding of your quandary, i.e. what type of dragon follows an undead master! But that isn't the question that I was really asking...Who is Lilith and what motivates her to become a Pale Mistress in service to Falazure! That is when I started thinking of her personality and started comparing them to the different genotypes available and how the draconic traits added to her RP as I saw her.
Hope this helps a bit

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Yes, it is a tattoo...Did it hurt? Nah, felt like chicken.

The Forgotten Realms dragon god of death is Null, anyhow. Chronepsis is a core deity from the 3e Draconomicon. There may have been some house-ruling going on to merge the two, but I find it more likely that a mortal would know the god as Null as that's how he's been known to the dragons of Toril.

Even the dragons have almost forgotten their god, though. I find it rather unlikely that a mortal would find out about them or worship them. There's a case to be made that it's a more pressing issue for short-lived humans, but they would be inclined to turn to human gods or alternately, the two new gods Bahamut and Tiamat who appear as dragon deities even if they were never part of the dragon pantheon. It's not even a matter of discovering and choosing to follow this god; knighthood is a social status, and without any kind of church or social structure of worship, you'd be a lone warrior granting yourself the title. There is no church of Null/Chronepsis.

As the FR Draconomicon states:



And on Null:


I'm not sure why a human would concern himself with dragon afterlife, but I suppose it's plausible if dragons important to him passed away/were about to and he was worried about what would follow.

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Just a quick copy and paste from our own player maintained wiki


Falazure (sometimes known as Null)


Chronepsis (sometimes known as Zorquaan)

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Yes, it is a tattoo...Did it hurt? Nah, felt like chicken.

It would be appropriate to list them the other way around - the names in brackets are the primary Realmslore names, Falazure and Chronepsis are unfortunate but common imports from generic D&D. The Wiki says a lot of stuff, but you should always go to the sources it references to check yourself.

I really do not see those connections, though. Null specifically has two aspects, and they seem to fit together fairly well with Falazure and Chronepsis. It would be more appropriate to say that the two aspects of Null, Reaver and Guardian of the Lost, are sometimes considered to be seperate beings known as Falazure and Chronepsis - although none of the three fit together completely, and the myths concerning them likely contain elements of older material, of once-living dragon gods now long dead. Even if the gods of the Realms are real, they're still very confusing and shrouded in myth.

Zorquan, however, is the generic god of "dragonhood", much like Corellon is the god of elves. He has nothing to do with Chronepsis:

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We use Falazure and Chronepsis and have for years.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It is Amian tradition to admit and correct blunders too, though. FR material always trumps core material, period. People just used the wrong book unkowingly and when it was discovered, changing everything was inconvenient.

I don't see why it needs to be an either-or problem, though. This is an issue much like planar cosmology, and I don't see why the solution couldn't be the same. They can be pretty seamlessly merged. Something as ancient and mythical as dragon deities isn't even supposed to be clear and easy for mortals. But my main point here is that Chronepsis does not translate to Zorquan at all. Whoever wrote that, I don't know what they were thinking. The two have nothing in common. Chronepsis is closer to Null than Falazure is, but both can be interpreted as his aspects easily and perfectly in line with everything in the books and that's happened on Amia.

I absolutely do not suggest Falazure and Chronepsis are somehow retconned. There are PCs' stories at stake. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't correct our idea of them and recognize Null and Zorquan as the original, primary FR deities. Whether Fala and Chron are independent aspects of Null, two young gods who've taken his place, or actually memories of older deities who've later been connected to Null and his two aspects, is ultimately irrelevant. This kind of ambiguity is the essence of god- and planeslore. If you read the FR Draconomicon, it's full of theorizing and ambigious, uncertain statements. It means it's open for further interpretation, but that interpretation should also maintain the same open-ended ambiguity.

It goes further than those two. Asgaroth the World Shaper, or Io? The two are clearly different, but in many ways similar too. I propose that both are treated as mythology so that IC theorizing can attempt to solve the question. If there's contradicting lore about dragon deities, the only sensible thing to do is to accept it all as the actual beliefs of someone at some time, as fragments of myths and doctrines passed on through the ages. There's absolutely no need to determine what the "truth" is.

This is a tired old sermon I've been preaching for years, but I really dislike it when people want to define the gods and planes and other magical things in clear dichotomies of self/same, is/isn't, god/aspect, reality/belief. That's missing the entire point. It's a secular mode of thinking. That stuff is supposed to be ambigious, mysterious, shrouded in myth and theorizing, and most of all malleable by the real forces of history IC. If ever you say "this god is identical with that one", "those gods aren't the same" or "that god didn't really create the elves", you're doing it wrong. You can only talk about the gods in how they manifest to mortals and what those mortals actually believe in. Speech beyond experience is absurd.

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The DMs can say whatever black and white cosmological line they want. That's srt of their job.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

The ones who know and understand lore wouldn't do that, though. Even if you would.

Instead of a sophisticted lore contribution to this topic that would enrichen everyone's RP, you've just waved authority and tradition in people's faces.

Edit: Whatever, you're partly right. I'm just pissed that you post these one-liners without actually commenting on the discussion at large. You know, putting effort into it. I'm sorry.

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I didn't wave anything, I'm not a DM. I don't have anything to wave anymore, nor was I trying. It's just an opinion (and me saying what was traditionally done).

If they want to change that, that's their perogative. And it's not yours or my place to say what anyone would do. Regardless of what they know and understand.

All I did was say 2 things: 1: what was done previously on Amia and what is currently in the module. 2: the DMs can say black and white things if they want. They can say nebulous things if they want. For anyone to say "they must only say vague things" or "must only say concrete things" is an opinion that doesn't mean anything in this forum.

You're starting an argument where there isn't one, with someone who has no investment in the situation except to give simple historical fact. Don't bother.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Yeah, possibly so. (I edited my post several times, such a bad habit.)

But still: the fact that there are idols to those two gods doesn't invalidate the other, FR-specific gods. It would still be prudent to familiarize yourself with Null, a god with an actual historical following among Toril's dragons, if you're going to worship someone that seems to fulfill the same role. The inclusion of Falazure and Chronepsis certainly doesn't retcon the traces of Null from the Realms, after all. After my post comparing the different gods and speculating on their possible relations (aspects, new gods, older names, individual overlapping gods of different theological traditions), your simple post of "We use Falazure and Chronepsis" suggests that the AmiaWiki is correct. Which it clearly isn't, because there's no way you can reduce Null to Falazure, let alone Zorquan to Chronepsis. Whatever their relations and reality, they clearly aren't the same. They have very little in common, apart from a vague portfolio of death. Even if we're radical and say Null never existed (which probably isn't the best solution), it would still be in error to say that Falazure is sometimes known as Null. Why would he be, when they're totally different? At most, you could say Falazure is sometimes called the Reaver, since he correlates with an aspect of Null by that name.

And that's all I'm really concerned about: people should know that there is more to the dragon pantheon and dragon lore in general than the 3e Draconomicon. There's an earlier Draconomicon specifically for FR, and of course Dragons of Faerûn. If you're going to play a knight of Chronepsis (as much as I dislike the idea of mortals worshiping dragon gods with little relevance to their lives, especially since there's probably no church), it would probably interest you to know about Null and think about the relations of these apparently conflicting gods that are nonetheless somehow part of our setting.

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Amia is routinely touted as being based on 3.0 and 3.5 Ed, and as far as I'm aware it's also been stated in the past that the Amia Wiki is a player maintained Wiki and therefore may not be 100% accurate.

Thanks.

I think I'll try ...

Time dragon

Breath weapon: Line of Ravaging Time and Cone of Time Expulsion
Terrain: Anywhere they find air to breathe
Alignment: Usually Neutral

... sounds like a good choice for one of Chronepsis's.

We'll see... the character is on hold now anyway, due to plots my main character is participating.

_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

By the way: I found that Cult of the Dragon has several pages on Null. Insofar as Chronepsis is interpreted as one of his aspects or names or a younger deity to replace him, some of it would be of interest to you (I can't be bothered to format it better, but I have the PDF if you're interested):

Null
(Death Wyrm, Guardian of the lost,
Night Dragon, Reaver)
Intermediate/Lesser Power of
the Outlands/Carceri, LN/LE
PORTFOLIO: Death, the dead, decay, exhaustion,
energy draining, fatalism, judgment,
necromancy, undeath
ALIASES: Faluzure, Chronepsis
DOMAIN NAME: Outlands/Mausoleum of Chronepsis
and Minethys/Mausoleum of
Pain
SUPERIOR: Asgorath
ALLIES: Kalzareinad (dead)
FOES: Bahamut (Xymor), Hlal, Tamara,
Tiamat
SYMBOL: A circle divided diagonally into
white and black semicircles or a
draconic skull
WOR. ALIGN.: Any (Guardian of the Lost) or LE,
NE, CE (Reaver)
Null (NUL) is the draconic god of death in all its myriad
aspects. He is venerated by dragons of all alignments to some
degree in his role as Guardian of the Lost. Many dragons of evil
alignment—particularly shadow dragons and dracoliches—
venerate Null in his aspect as Reaver, the Death Wyrm. Null is
also known in some obscure texts as Chronepsis or Faluzure,
but those aliases may simply be the names of draconic deities of
other worlds or his names in other crystal spheres.
As with most draconic deities of Faerûn, Null’s faith has
been slowly dwindling for centuries, and, as of the Fall of
the Gods, he had but a handful of devoted adherents (some
of whom were undead). Since the Time of Troubles, Null
has begun to make inroads among the Sacred Ones of the
Cult of the Dragon. Null’s motivation is in part due to a
desire to staunch his gradual loss of power and in part to
counter Tiamat’s recent attempts to incorporate the Followers
of the Scaly Way into her own faith. A few ill-regarded
members of Sembian Cult cell have begun to whisper that
Null is “the Dead Dragon who shall rule the world entire”
with the Sacred Ones as his worldly vassals, but it is
unknown if Null has made any such claim himself.
Null is said to speak with the dusty croak of the undead.
He is arrogant, fatalistic, proud, and totally lacking in any
sense of humor. The Night Dragon does not anger easily, but
instead slowly nurtures grudges that eventually blossom into
undying hatreds for slights and attacks (imagined or otherwise).
Null’s residences, both mausoleums, are said to coexist
in part on the Negative Material Plane and the Demiplane of
Shadows; in fact, the two death houses may in reality be one
structure that exists both in the Outlands and Carceri.
Null has a long-standing hatred of both Tiamat and
Bahamut, who are said to be his siblings. While Null and
Tiamat were once allied, some rift in the prehistory of the
Realms has driven them into everlasting enmity. Null nurtures
a deep grudge against Hlal as a result of an elaborate
practical joke that robbed the Death Wyrm of his dignity
centuries ago. While the Night Dragon has little patience
for most of the other surviving draconic gods, he bitterly
resents Tamara’s attempts to interfere with the inevitability
of death and darkness and hates her with a special passion.
The one deity Null was on somewhat friendly terms with
was Kalzareinad, a demipower of draconic magic who was
said to have aided Sammaster’s creation of the first dracolich,
and the loss of this ally has led scholars to speculate
that he may soon seek others to replace him.

[Info about his avatar and manifestations snipped]

The Church

CLERGY: Priest dragons and dracoliches, specialty
priests
CLERGY’SALIGN.: LN, N, LE, NE, CE
TURN UNDEAD: PD: No, SP: No
CMND.UNDEAD: PD: No, SP: Yes
All dragons and dracoliches capable of casting priest spells
who venerate Null as well as all specialty priests of the
Night Dragon receive religion (draconian) as a bonus nonweapon
proficiency.
Null is worshiped in two seemingly contradictory
aspects. As Guardian of the Lost, Null is the guardian of
the dead. As such, he shepherds the spirits of dragons to
their respective planes when they die, and he ensures they
are no longer troubled by enemies they may have had
while alive. In this aspect, individual dragons who have
just lost someone close to them sometimes make offerings
to Null to speed the recently departed’s spirit to its final
resting place. As Reaver, Null enjoys the taking of life, and
he blesses others who serve him in this capacity. Reaver
supports research into necromancy and those who seek to
extend their lives through undeath. It is said that with the
Death Wyrm’s blessing, the first dragons transformed
themselves into shadow dragons, and some claim that it
was Reaver who whispered the secrets of creating dracoliches
to Sammaster. (Other claim it was Kalzareinad, or
that Reaver was gifted with the secrets upon Kalzareinad’s
passing.)
Temples of Null are typically dimly illuminated subterranean
cavernous vaults cloaked in endlessly shifting
shadows. Many dragons of all species and alignments
travel to such temples shortly before their deaths, and their
shattered skeletons typically engulf any given temple’s
floor. Interspersed among the piled bones are uncounted
coins and gems that once adorned the scales of the departed
wyrms. Spirits of the dead wyrms and other spectral
guardians defend Null’s temples from interlopers who
seek to plunder such rich draconic burial pits.
Like all remaining draconic deities of Faerûn, Null has
not had an organized priesthood among his draconic followers
since the dragon holy wars millennia ago. (Null’s
archrival, Tiamat, has an organized priesthood among her
human followers, but not among her draconic followers.)
Dragons and dracoliches who venerate Null and who are
capable of casting priest spells are considered members of
Null’s clergy, and they receive the initial knowledge of
their priest spells from the Night Dragon. Those few dragons
and dracoliches who truly serve the Night Dragon as
priests are known as annihilists and are considered to be
draconic specialty priests.
Dogma: As the Guardian of the Lost, Null teaches that
all things shall eventually come to rest, and, when they do,
their spirits pass on into the afterlife. All life eventually
leads into death, which is simply a demarcation point
marking the change to another existence. True death is final
and absolute, and once dragons pass on, the concerns of
the physical world must never again disturb them so that
they are able to pursue existence in their new form to the
fullest.
As Reaver, Null teaches that death and decay are inevitable
and omnipresent. Dragons are gifted with the
strength to withstand death for so long so that they may
serve as emissaries of Reaver in spreading death among the
lesser races. To truly become strong, dragons should incorporate
aspects of death into their lives. Whether they chose
to draw on the energies of the Demiplane of Shadow or the
Negative Material Plane, dragons who embrace death in
life herald the day when the afterlife will incorporate the
living world as well.
Day-to-Day Activities: Null’s clergy occupy their days
as do most dragons: endless hours of sleep, avaricious contemplation
of their hoards, and plotting of future glories
interspersed with brief hunting and mating forays and the
occasional battle with interlopers in their lairs. Unlike other
wyrms, however, Null’s followers are typically preoccupied
with necromantic investigations and the philosophical
contemplation of death.
Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: As a result of the
millennia-long decline of draconic faiths coupled with the
extended lifetimes of dragons, few draconic holy ceremonies
have survived to the present day, and those that do
occur only a handful of times per century. Nevertheless, at
least two such ceremonies continue to be celebrated by
those who venerate Null.
A ceremony known as the Drawing Down is held at
most once every lunar month beginning on the night of the
waning half-moon. Over the next fortnight, dragons of all
species consign the spirits of the recently deceased to the
Guardian of the Lost in elaborate ceremonies of corporeal
internment that culminate with the appearance of the new
moon.
Total solar eclipses mark Reaver‘s infrequent holy day,
known as the Nullification. On such occasions, followers of
Reaver rampage throughout the Realms, wreaking destruction
and leaving naught but death in their wake. It is said
that the follower of Null who inflicts the greatest number
of casualties on the mammalian races is transformed into
the Wyrm of Death (an unique undead form similar to that
of a dracolich) and reigns as high priest of Null’s faith until
the next such eclipse.
Major Centers of Worship: Two Nullist centers of worship
of significance are the Well of Dragons and the Crypt
of Dragons.
The Well of Dragons is a vast natural cauldron located
due east of the Skull Gorge that is concealed by illusory terrain
except when bathed in moonlight. Countless dragons
have gone to this ancient temple of Null to die over the centuries,
some choosing to shatter themselves against the
rocks in a fatal dive and others choosing simply to peacefully
wait for their imminent denouement. The Dire Dragon,
an unusually large undead shadow dragon (although not a
true dracolich) who lairs in the Well of Dragons, is said by
some to be the current Wyrm of Death and to have been
transformed into his present undead state by Reaver himself.
Others claim this is simply halfling lies, but whatever
the truth, the Dire Dragon has amassed an incredible hoard,
even for a wyrm of his age and power. The Dire Dragon is
certainly capable of defending himself thanks to his mighty
shadow magic, the numerous magical baubles he has gathered
from the corpses of dragons who have perished in the
Well, and the secrets and stratagems revealed to him by
those dragons who prefer to talk away their last few hours.
The Crypt of Dragons is a vast underground caverntomb
within a day’s travel of the town of Hilp in Cormyr.
(Although the exact location has been forgotten, the subterranean
vault is believed to be located either northwest of
the town in the Ring’s Forest or due east of the crossroads
community under the rolling hills of the high farm country.)
This shrine was consecrated ages ago to the Guardian
of the Lost (and is believed to be the largest remaining
temple dedicated solely to that nonevil aspect of the god),
but it has been centuries since the last dragon was interred
therein. Orncibl Rhommd, a weaver of Hilp, and his two
apprentices stumbled across the ancient temple in the Year
of the Worm (1356 DR), and Orncibl later described it as
containing several mummified dragon corpses carefully
arranged atop piles of gold and gems. Both of Orncibl’s
apprentices were felled by fields of blue crackling force that
slew them when they approached too closely. Orncibl himself
disappeared shortly after his astounding announcement,
and agents of the Cult of the Dragon have been
actively searching the region for the long-lost Crypt ever
since.
Affiliated Orders: None.
Priestly Vestments: Null’s holy symbol is a black sapphire
with a hollow core into which a small white diamond
is magically placed. Such holy symbols are known as
“death rattles” after they sound they make when shaken.
Adventuring Garb: None.

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And to highlight the best part in that entry:



Emphasis on "obscure texts." While it's clearly possible to worship Chronpesis on Amia, it would be highly unlikely for your PC not to be well aware of the connection to Null, who is more famous.

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What sourcebook is this from? Everything I found on the Cult of the Dragon specifically refers to Falazure NOT Chronepsis...

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Yes, it is a tattoo...Did it hurt? Nah, felt like chicken.

Cult of the Dragon, page 121 onward. It used to be a free download from WotC I think, but the links are lost.

Not entirely sure why something about the Cult would refer to either of them, as neither are featured in FR sourcebooks though. Unless it's Amia material you've read. As I've been trying to say for several posts now, the Realms don't make that distinction as they are both included in the figure of Null. You could say they are his two aspects. They don't exist in canon Realms, even if they're featured on Amia.

(Unless some obscure source retcons the only two existing overviews of the dragon pantheon in Realmslore. Which is very possible, but also not very authoritative.)

I mean, whatever the case in Amialore, it's still relevant to know what the canon situation is to know how we deviate from it.

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A bit late to the party on my part, but I figured I would step in to resolve this. While Null is the correct dual-natured god for FR, Chronepsis suffices just fine. Tormak has the right of things as to him already having precedent lore wise for Amia. Consider spell support for him to be on the 'coming attractions' list.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

But it's fine to assume both sort of exist, right? Whatever the exact relations between them.

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As in Null can sort of exist aswell as the dichotomy of Falazure and Chronepsis?

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Yes. I really doubt we should retcon mentions of Null from the lore. Unless the team decides otherwise, there is history and lore available IC that would lead people to theorize. There are several options: Falazure and Chronepsis are actually the two aspects of Null already mentioned in FR lore; Falazure and Chronepsis are new gods who've taken Null's portfolio; Falazure and Chronepsis are the names of old, forgotten deities. And you could probably come up with other explanations. The best thing to do is probably to include idols of all three deities and not tell players whether they're "really" the same or not. All that should matter is whether they in fact are worshiped independently in the Realms. (Which, I maintain, they are.) Can priests of Null (insofar as any dragon deity still has priests) gain spells?

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As it stands right now, we, as a team, made our choice based upon the intent to cater to the greater player base by going with the dichotomy that is better documented and has greater precedent within the realm of Amia's story. That is why the more obscure Null did not make the cut.

That isn't to say he couldn't in the future, for reasons yet unknown, but that is all simply speculation until it is decided upon by the team.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,