AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

No, not the name of a salacious Bond Girl, hehe,
but a recent exchange in the Build Advice Thread gave rise to a few thoughts in me.

Particularly, what is the fate of an individual of a specific race who decidedly devotes themselves to a god from another race's pantheon.
For example, and Elf who worships a human god. Would they be treated the same as a human devotee in the afterlife, or would they be sent before the Seldarine with sum'splainin' to do. What are the consequences of this to the concept of Arvanaith as explained by Lizzie in the Elven philosophy thread, or to any races prescribed afterlife mythos.

The same goes for a Dwarf who chooses to represent a Human or even Hinn god's dogma?

I know certain combinations would be complete bonkers, like a Dwarf with a strong affection for the Seldarine of a Hinn with a predilection for Gruumsh's values.

But what would happen to say a Sharran or Tyrran Elf?

An elf that has deliberately turned from the Seldarine to serve and worship a non-elf deity would likely be regarded as one of that god's faithful, and not of the Seldarine. If they merely showed deep respect, such as any lay worshipper might, they'd probably still be taken in by the elven gods after death. The same goes for any other being who turns from it's "natural" pantheon to another.

One exception to this is elven followers of Milil. I seem to recall in F&P or another book along those lines, that Milil is welcome in the elven pantheon as well as the human, due to the beauty of his music.

The thing that people don't seem to understand about elves is that even the ones that are evil don't believe they have turned from the Seldarine. They don't see themselves as evil. They see themselves as practical, willing to do whatever it takes to keep elven civilization alive. They just -don't- go to Shar or Tyr or whatever. You find that here on Amia, but not in lore.

It's silly and ridiculous, if you ask me. But the DMs that don't know anything about elves will certainly disagree with me. They're wrong, though.

As for other races, dwarves don't go outside the dwarven pantheon, either. Halflings are really the only ones that will go and worship from other pantheons. Drizzt started all this nonsense.

Are you seriously saying Elves don't worship outside of the Seldarine and that Elves never leave Seldarine worship behind? If you are saying that, you're dead wrong, my friend.

No trollin', Derk.

a rather portion of wild elves do not venerate the seldarine as much as tehy just venerate rilifane fenamarel and the nature gods.
And i would imagin many wood elves are equally tied closer to the nature gods than corellon..thats just speculations on my part however.

Elves are specifically listed as worshipers for gods outside the Seldarine. Mystra, for example. So, the notion that elves only venerate the Seldarine is wrong. FR is highly polytheistic. However, it is not common, and the great majority of elves do hold their gods above the rest.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

But the DMs that don't know anything about elves will certainly disagree with me. They're wrong, though.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

No trollin', Derk.

This is sort of a one-off exception as I'm not aware of any other similar situations, but as one of Sharess's avatars (components) is the Yuir elven deity Zandilar the Dancer (who was never one of the Seldarine), Sharess could conceivably be a legitimate choice for an elf who for some reason found her portfolio more appealing than that of Hanali Celanil.

Actually, a lot of Wild Elves don't worship the Seldarine at all and simply worship a nature god (usually Silvanus).

Also, two of the most powerful and influential people in all of Faerun are Elves. Guess who they worship? Silvanus, Mielikki and Eldath. In fact, they're both Chosen of Silvanus, Mielikki and Eldath. That is, they're a Chosen of all three gods at the same time. Both of them.

I recon to think Derk is trolling or was drunk. That was way too dumb a comment.

I was intentionally overstating a point that you and Nivo were both nice enough to illustrate. Of course there are exceptions, but they are very few and far between.

Not as few and far between as you seem to think. Wild Elves are plenty and a ton of them left Seldarine worship a long time ago. That's a sizable chunk of Elf beef right there alone.

Just admit it, you said something dumb.

Show me this "sizable chunk" in print. I'm being serious. I don't like wild elves and have never been inclined to look into them beyond knowing that they were the caretakers of Evermeet before the arrival of the rest of the elves. Besides, we all know wild elves aren't real elves anyway.

In Chondalwood, which has one of the biggest populations of Wild Elves, the Elves mostly worship Silvanus as patron.

In the many forests of the Shaar, where a ton more Wild Elves are, worship changes literally from tribe to tribe. IIRC, there's even one that doesn't worship gods anymore.

This idea that all Elves are pro-Seldarine always is false. To drive the point home even further, Aquatic Elves, Avariels and Wild Elves all usually worship Deep Sashelas, Aerdrie Faenya and Rillifane Rallathil respectively -- generally speaking. Their "worship" of the other members of the Seldarine is just lip-service in most cases. Wood Elves are quite varied because of how open minded they are, compared to other Elves. Silvanus, Mielikki and Eldath worship is pretty common with them as well.

Faith with Elves is not solid, like you seem to want to imply. It's plenty fragile in many respects. Look at the Angharradh controversy. Look at the Khalreshaar controversy. Elves are far too proud for their faith to be solid and firm. They're so Mary-Sue, their Mary-Sue works against them a lot of times.

Apparently my point is lost on you, Gunz.

The fact of the matter is, all of the gods indicated herein are close allies of Corellon Larethian and the elven pantheon.

Your word choice in your initial post was extremely poor and damn right insulting. You claim Elves don't leave Seldarine worship, then you say that DM's who say otherwise are "wrong" and "don't know anything about Elves," and finally that exceptions are found "on Amia, but not in lore."

Fact is, you were wrong and you're back peddling now.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

The thing that people don't seem to understand about elves is that even the ones that are evil don't believe they have turned from the Seldarine. They don't see themselves as evil. They see themselves as practical, willing to do whatever it takes to keep elven civilization alive. They just -don't- go to Shar or Tyr or whatever. You find that here on Amia, but not in lore.

It's silly and ridiculous, if you ask me. But the DMs that don't know anything about elves will certainly disagree with me. They're wrong, though.

As for other races, dwarves don't go outside the dwarven pantheon, either. Halflings are really the only ones that will go and worship from other pantheons. Drizzt started all this nonsense.

I'm quoting this because I feel the need to remind the players that post here that the DMs cannot be wrong, and if we disagree with you de facto you are wrong and we are right.

This forum is not for you to argue, or "intentionally overstate" in an attempt to start a fight. If you want to do so you will quickly find yourself unable to post here any further, and you'll b proving my point: the one that says this forum shouldn't have existed and if it does, players shouldn't be able to post.

Okay, let's have a look at Races of Faerun, a lore source that is more than just typing words on a forum:

Page 29: Although the aquatic elves acknowledge the Seldarine, their true deity is Deep Sashelas...

Page 33: Like the aquatic elves, the avariels acknowledge the Seldarine as a whole and pay lip service to most of these deities, but they hold a special reverence for a single member of that pantheon - in their case, Aerdrie Faenya...

Page 36-37: The drow worship a pantheon of deities known as the Dark Seldarine...Lolth, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, Eilistraee are all named.

Page 39: Moon elves worship the Seldarine.

Page 42: Religion infuses every aspect of sun elven society. Sun elves believe themselves to be the chosen representatives of the Seldarine in the mortal realm.

Page 44: The wild elves worship the Seldarine, in particular Rillifane Rallathil...

Page 47: Wood elves worship the Seldarine, but they hold a special respect and reverence for the ancient forest powers of Faerun, Silvanus and Mielikki.

There is a recurring theme there that I don't think I need to point out. I'll give you Silvanus and Mielikki, though I did also already point out that they are close allies of Corellon Larethian and are nowhere on the same level as an elf worshipping Shar or Tyr like the OP mentioned.

Edit to add- I'll quote something in particular in the Lightfoot Halfling article as well, since it is relevant

Races of Faerun page 78: Of all the hin subraces, the lightfoot are the most likely to worship deities other than those belonging to Yondalla's children. -- Why is this significant? Because the lore book specifically mentioned worship outside the racial pantheon here, but did not at all for the elves except in the wood elves' case.

What? The word "Seldarine?" You went from making a very specific claim, to suddenly changing it. Your argument is not the same one anymore. I'm not arguing with what you're currently arguing.

Personally I've always been a fan of DM only Lore thread. It gets really confusing when 8 players have commented only to have one DM later going "No that's not true". People, including myself, have also gotten caught up in the argument that once again doesn't really help the OP when they just want an answer to their question.

People who come to the Lore thread wants an answer that is applicable to Amia. Not "What's Faerun lore on this?" or "What does FR books say about this?" They shouldn't have to scroll down to look for the red log-in name to find the answer they're looking for.

All of my posts are completely supported by my last post, Gunz. Have a look. If you want to change what the lore is, go for it. As of right this moment, however, all the playerbase has to go off of is the sourcebook.

Tomato Sword wrote:

People who come to the Lore thread wants an answer that is applicable to Amia. Not "What's Faerun lore on this?" or "What does FR books say about this?" They shouldn't have to scroll down to look for the red log-in name to find the answer they're looking for.

I disagree. Plenty of times people are after the lore of the setting, and *most* of the time Amia lore does not differ. If there were more DMs and fewer possible questions it'd make sense, but I'd rather a good answer today from the peanut gallery than a perfect answer tomorrow - especially when I can still get that perfect answer before I set anything in stone. I can deal with a little scrolling.

That said, if we had more citations and less opinions it would probably neaten the process. Sure, there are going to be some opinions even then, since there are issues of lore-precedence and interpretation, but I don't think it could hurt to leave it open in that way.

serbiris wrote:

That said, if we had more citations and less opinions it would probably neaten the process.

My opinion is that this should be the case pretty much no matter what, even if you're considered an authority on the topic, otherwise it should be taken as an interpretation (which may still be canon/lore-correct interpretation, but how can we know without a source to cross-reference for ourselves?) It's very, very easy to just assume that something is correct because it's the interpretation that has been regurgitated over and over, because it stemmed from someone who was knowledgeable, when in fact they read something wrong, or had flavored it beyond the truth, and it was digested into the general body of information as canon.

[Citation needed], as they say.

For example, the above discussion about elves and their worship of the Seldarine versus worship of non-Seldarine deities: the citations provided allow people to see what the book actually says and then draw their own interpretation. One interpretation is that the lack of mention of non-Seldarine deities implies that worship outside of the Seldarine is basically non-existent. Another interpretation is that it is implied the statements are for the race as a whole and the average, typical member of that race and so of course don't run the gambit of deities an individual elf might worship.

Neither interpretation is explicitly stated - that's why they're interpretations, and in this case completely subject to what the DMs say is appropriate for the Amia setting, since it is left open-ended, or rather, not completely 100% stated one way or the other.

Now, my personal paradigm on these sort of things is that D&D is written a particular way that makes such things implicit that if isn't explicitly stated that something does or does not happen, then it certainly can. "Elves worship the Seldarine, especially so-and-so, but never or rarely worship outside of it" is the format I expect to see in those entries, if that were the case. Because it isn't, we can assume from the context of the way all of the other books are written that there is flexibility permitted, therefore.

But again, that is still just an interpretation of the game, so it's only personal opinion and not necessarily fact even if everyone were to agree with it.

tl;dr? Citations = important. Hooray, citations! Use them liberally. It's also great because it's a reminder to check your facts before potentially getting into an argument that really didn't need to happen in the first place, because something was misconstrued, remembered incorrectly, or whatnot. Citations are good for yourself, as well as others.

Derk, you can quote sourcebooks all you like. It doesn't change that you're wrong because of Rule Zero: What the DM says goes.

The sourcebooks themselves are suggestions, anyways.

Letum is correct about citations. There are a few standards to remember about using citations, however. First of all, you want to guarantee that you cite reputable and relevant sources rather than something that doesn't support your argument. Sticking to what DMs say here on the forums and using printed source material as a tertiary reference is what will prove that your grasp on the lore and the presentation of your argument comes from genuinely intelligent source.

The proper citation information is name of DM, title of thread, and date. For example, if referencing my helpful guidelines here, your citation would be as follows in the body: "quote" (Yossarin 2012).

In works cited or footnotes (CMS): Yossarin. "Miss Oddfaith", April 9, 2012.

Quote:

DM Yossarin (2012) found "Lore Thread: Miss Oddfaith" (post 25); what implications are there for races that worship deities outside their racial pantheon?

Fixed for APA Format.

Ugh, APA. I am a huge fan of cross-linking threads, though, or providing links wherever possible. Page numbers, too, although I've been lazy on this lately. Brb, going to amend this.

I've most often seen this question pondered in the form of "what happens to an elf who worships a human god," but I'm actually way more interested in the reverse. What happens to a human who genuinely worships the Seldarine? I imagine that being a rare thing, but it happens occasionally (a bard worshiping Corellon is plausible, for example, and supported by the lore).

But, everything I've read of Arvanaith suggests that only elves are welcomed in. So what happens to that poor faithful human bard? Does some other god take pity on her? Does she somehow get to hang out with Kelemvor for eternity? Is she just cosmically screwed?

I'm not sure there's a canonical answer to that question, but it's kind of fascinating, IMHO.

Look at Khalreshaar, it isn't so far fetched for a Human deity to gain a cult following within the Elven population, and even gain some standing. Though I disagree that Khalreshaar is known as just an aspect of Mielikki, it ruins the fun of playing a character who is part of a cult, but that is just me.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

All of my posts are completely supported by my last post, Gunz. Have a look. If you want to change what the lore is, go for it. As of right this moment, however, all the playerbase has to go off of is the sourcebook.

...What? Your original post is clearly wrong and that's what I was arguing against, not anything else you've said since then. You've shifted your argument a good amount since your first post.

I'm not going to go around in circles anymore about this.

Lizzie wrote:

What happens to a human who genuinely worships the Seldarine?

Now this is a ton more interesting. There is no clear answer in sources though -- or on Amia for that matter. It's all just theory.

The only thing I could contribute to this is that it's probably very possible that people of other races who worship a Seldarine god could go on to "Elf Heaven" if you will. I think it would be rare though. A non-elf living life in accordance to Elven ways is very hard. Humans would probably find it easiest, due to their adaptability. Not to mention their readiness to worship whoever they feel they connect with. It's a pretty unique thing in FR. For that reason, it would be very rare, I think. But I digress.

One big reason I believe this is possible is because of one Elf, Shadowmoon Crystalembers. She used to be a Human, but died defending Elves heroically. Because of this, Corellon brought her back to life, as an Elf -- a Wood Elf, to be exact.

Gunz wrote:

... one Elf, Shadowmoon Crystalembers...

Wow, that's a terrible name. That's the sort of name that makes elf players embarrassed, and makes other people dismiss elves as a bunch of Mary Sue piffle. Seriously, it sounds like it was made up by a six-year-old. I bet Shadowmoon Crystalembers hung around with Princess Rainbow Sunshine and Sir Goodfellow Happyheart. I bet she rode around on a unicorn and was friends with Drizz't and Alustriel and Elminster.

I believe this particular question has been satisfactorily answered by the DM Squad.

That answer, for those that have made it this far is thus:

Zamtrack wrote:

Particularly, what is the fate of an individual of a specific race who decidedly devotes themselves to a god from another race's pantheon.

Races can worship gods outside their racial norms. If they do, then they will be sent to their respective god's realm. i.e. Silvanus and the Deep Wilds or the Seldarine and Arvandor.

Miss OddFaith

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