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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 11 2018, 18:18 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Hi everyone,

I got a bit curious about alignment restrictions. Like, what's the lore behind it? I mean, the OOC restrictions aren't valid any more, so that isn't what I mean. But like, IRL, there's no item I can use that... doesn't accept me as its' owner, so I'm unsure about the official lore on Amia.

First off, what I would assume is a bit of an exception (that horrendously fails, to be honest) are the brog orc gloves from the boss. The description implies that they don't fit the smaller races, and that's why they're restricted to all the "normal-hand-sized" folks. But that is the only place where that seems logical.

That explanation fails for all universal subraces, even on humans. That explanation also fails on all alignment restrictions, and even some other cases. So, I was curious: I always assumed it was something along the lines of a "power word", you needed to use to activate the item. Or generally some other way, where if the item doesn't think you're "worthy", it doesn't have its' extra powers. (I might have gotten this idea off of the Drizzt books, where I believe the sword works like that)
I personally would have assumed that in character you could still hold the item, in the case of a weapon, still use it, or as any wearable, still put it on. It would simply be as powerful as a mundane item. I mean, logic would seem to tell me that there's nothing stopping me from putting on a cloak. Or a ring. As long as it fits me, I should be able to slip it on my finger, right? A sword, I can always hold an item? So why can't I swing it? Why can't I swing it at someone? What's stopping me?


But, I never really asked how this works, I just always tried to think of it that way... Is there an official explanation? I guess magic could actually stop me from equipping an item, but it seems like more powerful magic, since it would (seemingly, in my mind) have to mess with my mind, my thoughts, and make me not want/able to put it on. And since so many items have one sort of restriction or another on it, it would seems weird.
Additionally, UMD is a Charisma skill. It seems more like you're tricking the item into thinking you're the right alignment, than as though you were brute-forcing you way through a mind spell. A spell that reminds me a bit of the second idea would be Illusory Script, or any other sort of Suggestion, but those are non-permanent, Will-affecting spells. And that would mean Wisdom, not Charisma...


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 11 2018, 19:11 PM 

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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

If you're talking about alignment, race and class restrictions they were done that way in NWN for ....reasons beyond me. In pnp you can still use the sword if you don't meet the requirements.. you just won't get any of the magic attached to it at the same time. If you were to wield a +4 longsword with a race restriction on it without meeting that restriction, it would simply just be a standard longsword for you until you can fill the criteria. One example is the holy avenger which is a +2 cold iron longsword but when wielded by a paladin it becomes +5 with a bunch of other stuff as well. There are ways to fool that magic into believing you meet the criteria, such as with use magic device, but even then there are certain artifact or special items that you can't trick. The lore behind that is sparse based on what I looked up, but it seems to be directly tied to the imbued magic in the item and that the restrictions are placed there by the items creator or from the process itself. Also keep in mind that while some items are only fully "unlocked" when you meet their requirements, some can also curse you if you don't meet those requirements or have other negative side effects.

Since the NWN engine can't remove magic properties from an item and only apply them when you wield it and meet the criteria, without fancy script work for each item, it's a game limitation we just have to accept and live with since they decided to simplify it with level, class, alignment or race restrictions to wield it, rather than to have specific properties only trigger if you meet the requirements there and allow everyone to wield it and use it as a normal item without having access to the magic properties.

Some items on Amia also has the OOC restriction where you can't use it even with the required UMD. The prime example of this is the AA arrows, which were made to make AA's competitive. One example of a lore reason behind the inability to use those arrows that I've always seen as the reason behind it, could be that they require a specific technique to unlock their potential and use them properly which is only known to Arcane archers, and thus an extension of their imbue arrow feat or other class specific abilities. You could for instance say that the arrow itself doesn't hold the bonus damage, but rather the potential for it and that when wielded properly by an arcane archer, they can imbue it trough their class abilities to unlock that potential. While I'm unsure if there's any actual custom lore written down for the items restricted in that fashion, I do feel that the explanation or reasoning I've always had for it holds water as similar restrictions exist for specific items or artifacts in pnp.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 11 2018, 19:38 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Well, the AA arrows actually are the only case of OOC restrictions. And personally, I would have assumed those to mostly be a representation of the "Arcane" part. and tied to the arcane abilities.

Other than that, can I RP it as the way you describe it in PnP, or would that be considered going against the server lore/metagaming/whatever?


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 11 2018, 19:47 PM 

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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Well I personally would have no issue with it as long as it's made clear the items magic doesn't work for you (unless you meet the requirements or UMD requirements), and that a placeholder item without any magic on it (AC,Ab,skill bonus, save bonus etc) is slotted in the same place the "real" item would be so that you get the downside of using an item like that represented properly for the RP you want to do. (Example: Your char is wearing an amulet they can't get the benefits of because they don't meet the alignment requirement, then you'd have to represent that with a plain amulet without any properties and not wear something like a scarab of protection at the same time. Can't have your cake and eat it too)

Same would go for a character RPly holding something they're not proficient in, such as holding a whip, shield or wearing a suit of armor without the proficiency feat, as long as it's not used for combat purposes, since this is something that also can be done in PnP. I'd be completely fine with someone RPing their char is holding a weapon they aren't proficient in, or trying on heavy armor as a rogue or monk or whatever, but without it ever being used in a pvp or combat situation and that the drawbacks associated with that are properly RPed out.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 11 2018, 19:54 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Alright. I assumed something along the lines of that, but it's good to have confirmation on that.

I mean, irl, I can hold a whip. Or, a pretty famous example, Nunchuks. I can hold them, I can wave them around, I'm about as likely to hurt myself as I am my opponent, though. :P

Thanks for the answer!


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 11 2018, 20:19 PM 



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Joined: 13 Feb 2008

robbi320 wrote:
Well, the AA arrows actually are the only case of OOC restrictions. And personally, I would have assumed those to mostly be a representation of the "Arcane" part. and tied to the arcane abilities.


That is correct. The reason of the AA arrows is because the effect of the arrow is caused by the archer and not the arrow itself. However, mechanics bind the effect on the arrow.

There are other cases of the alignment restrictions...If the said item is holy or unholy and there is a certain factor that would bar your character from that. Or other sentient items. Certain item may not like certain people...and vica versa. Otherwise what Grave said.

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